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Tags aclu , civil liberties , title IX

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Old 19th November 2018, 11:21 AM   #121
Bob001
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
many, many many colleges, including the University at issue in the Sixth circuit opinion that I summarized and linked and that has been totally ignored in this thread involve State Actors, not two private entities.
The dispute is ultimately between the party accused and the party who made the accusation, as is the case in a civil trial or administrative hearing. In a criminal matter, the accuser is the state itself.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:25 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No but you could end up being followed with the label for the rest of your life because of a lower standard of evidence.

A university doesnít have this power.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:28 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
A university doesnít have this power.
Individual humans have this power, so yes, it does. I'm not talking about a national registry, here.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:30 AM   #124
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The problem with the stigma of being accused of something is that there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Yeah I'm tired of the way some people act as if being accused of certain crimes can't be life ruining, but at the same time... what can be done? That's a mentality, not a rule or law that can be overturned.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:31 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You are entitled to your opinion, but given track record Iím farm more likely to trust the ACLUís opinion. You (And Zig and TBD) mostly just seem to read whatever right wing op-ed you are directed to and just accept that opinion as your own without ever apply any real thought to it.
That's an ironic accusation, given that you're explicitly relying on the ACLU rather than applying and real thought to it yourself. And no, I don't need to read right wing op-eds to form an opinion about the rules. I can examine the rules themselves. I doubt you've done the same. Certainly you aren't actually interested in talking about them, because you never do.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:32 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The dispute is ultimately between the party accused and the party who made the accusation, as is the case in a civil trial or administrative hearing. In a criminal matter, the accuser is the state itself.
that is completely erroneous, you clearly did not read the link or case I posted.

By the way, "administrative hearings"? Also involve State actors.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:39 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You are entitled to your opinion, but given track record Iím farm more likely to trust the ACLUís opinion. You (And Zig and TBD) mostly just seem to read whatever right wing op-ed you are directed to and just accept that opinion as your own without ever apply any real thought to it.
Have you tried reading the new regulations themselves?
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:45 AM   #128
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You know the college rulings are usually separate from the local jurisdictions?

For example, here is a video report about a student who has been completely cleared of the false rape charges, legally...

However he still faces the USC Board of Ethics, and could still be expelled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQvSEGqwiUI
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:49 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The dispute is ultimately between the party accused and the party who made the accusation, as is the case in a civil trial or administrative hearing. In a criminal matter, the accuser is the state itself.
True to a point but the issue I see people missing here is that the school/university is not a neutral third party, as a judge or even an arbitration firm would be neutral but has very much 'skin in the game' involving accusations of criminal behavior among students and/or faculty.

For this reason alone, I think the idea is fraught with uncertainty and calls into question any supposed fairness.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:54 AM   #130
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This article is about an application of the Title 9 rules that destroyed a man's career, even though he had already been cleared of the criminal charge.
Quotes throughout about how current Title 9 rules are totally stacked against the accused.

Quote:
This is not an outtake from a bad men’s rights movie. Civil libertarians and legal scholars, including those with impeccable feminist credentials, have challenged the lack of due process in these Title IX proceedings, particularly for the accused. Twenty-eight members of the Harvard Law faculty, including prominent female and male liberal professors, recently signed an open letter in The Boston Globe.Their letter read: “Harvard has adopted procedures for deciding cases of alleged sexual misconduct which lack the most basic elements of fairness and due process, are overwhelmingly stacked against the accused and are in no way required by Title IX law.”
Quote:
Much blame resides with a 2011 directive from the Obama administration’s Department of Education, which was sent to thousands of schools that receive federal funds. This “Dear Colleague letter,” as it is known, was no doubt well intentioned. Sexual assault on campuses is real, women are hurt, embarrassed and reluctant to step forward, and historically too many universities shrugged off the terrible as “kids will be kids.”Before the arrival of that letter, many colleges used “clear and convincing” as a standard of proof in in-house investigations of sexual assault and harassment. A few, such as Stanford University, applied the criminal standard of “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
New rules are definitely needed.
https://www.myajc.com/sports/triple-...pGNScfAw9caQM/
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:15 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
This article is about an application of the Title 9 rules that destroyed a man's career, even though he had already been cleared of the criminal charge.
Quotes throughout about how current Title 9 rules are totally stacked against the accused.





New rules are definitely needed.
https://www.myajc.com/sports/triple-...pGNScfAw9caQM/
This looks much more like a mistake by the school in implementing the process than a problem with the process itself. The issue here appears to be that he wasnít properly notified of an appeal and therefor was denied the opportunity to present his own evidence.


Quote:
The university sends an email to Mumphery at an address he no longer looks at. He knows nothing of the appeal. This time, Michigan State holds him responsible for relationship violence and sexual misconduct.
If anything this case seems to go against the ACLU position because the schoolís error prevented him from presenting his own evidence. A higher standard of evidence probably doesnít even make a difference if heís not properly informed of the hearing.
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:25 PM   #132
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IMO it is still double jeopardy.

If you are cleared of criminal wrongdoing by the justice system, you should not be tried by a 3rd party operating with it's own set of rules.
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:39 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
IMO it is still double jeopardy.

If you are cleared of criminal wrongdoing by the justice system, you should not be tried by a 3rd party operating with it's own set of rules.
Not pursuing charges is not the same thing as being cleared. Even when a case goes to trial and there isnít a guilty verdict it doesnít prevent civil litigation for the same offence.
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Old 19th November 2018, 09:49 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
IMO it is still double jeopardy.

If you are cleared of criminal wrongdoing by the justice system, you should not be tried by a 3rd party operating with it's own set of rules.
You should let OJ know about that. Also let the KKK know, they've faced the same issue, getting exonerated by all-white juries, only to get their pants sued off of them in civil court.
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Old 20th November 2018, 05:38 AM   #135
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Civil court is part of the justice system.

My point was clearly 3rd party groups should not be able to prosecute you.
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Old 20th November 2018, 06:43 AM   #136
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Time to take the ďCLĒ out of ACLU.
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Old 20th November 2018, 07:41 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Civil court is part of the justice system.

My point was clearly 3rd party groups should not be able to prosecute you.
Actually, third party groups need to have their own process for dealing with their own organization.

After all, if a pilot screws up, then he has to answer to the FAA.
If a police officer screws up, then he has to answer to some sort of Internal Affairs organization.
If a person in the military screws up, then he has to answer to military justice.
If a doctor screws up, then he has to answer to his medical board.

And so on.

So, are you really so sure that your argument is correct?
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Old 20th November 2018, 07:55 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
So, are you really so sure that your argument is correct?
For the present thread, it doesn't really matter. If you're categorically against schools handling these issues at all, then nothing about the new rules changes that. It's still the status quo in that regard. Wanting schools to not touch the issue at all is a separate complaint that deserves a separate thread to address.
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Old 20th November 2018, 09:43 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Civil court is part of the justice system.

My point was clearly 3rd party groups should not be able to prosecute you.
If I get busted for driving around North Dakota with an ounce of weed, my job shouldn't be able to fire me?

Students represent the school they attend, on or off campus, just like I represent my job even if I'm not there. Why shouldn't they be able to decide?

ETA: If you want to throw organizations that receive funding into the mix, go ahead. No one is owed an education at all.
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Old 20th November 2018, 09:53 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Students represent the school they attend
Not really. The relationship between a school and a student isn't equivalent to the relationship between an employer and an employee.

That doesn't mean that schools have no business adjudicating any of these sexual assault/harassment complaints, because those issues aren't equivalent to smoking pot either. But the parallel you're trying to draw is a bad one.

Plus, of course, it's all unnecessary. If you object categorically to schools handling these issues, then these new rules about how exactly schools should do that are irrelevant, and this thread isn't the place to address that objection.
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Old 20th November 2018, 09:57 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The problem with the stigma of being accused of something is that there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Yeah I'm tired of the way some people act as if being accused of certain crimes can't be life ruining, but at the same time... what can be done? That's a mentality, not a rule or law that can be overturned.
Exactly look at trump, he brags about sexually assaulting people and they ruined his life by electing him president.

And what was the point releasing the pensilvania report with a thousand "victims" of sexual abuse by catholic priests? There were only 3 of the victims who could have these supposed crimes prosecuted so why make a big deal over the 997 others? That is ruining lives and reputations for no reason.
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:22 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If I get busted for driving around North Dakota with an ounce of weed, my job shouldn't be able to fire me?

Students represent the school they attend, on or off campus, just like I represent my job even if I'm not there. Why shouldn't they be able to decide?
This is exactly the issue under discussion here: the difference between crimes that come under governmental criminal justice systems and thus come under the Constitutional and other protections and guidelines thus mandated, versus the regulations imposed by employers, educators, etc., that can (and do) operate under other regulations. I could be fired from my job for a number of possible infractions of my employers rules without committing any crime. Including some that occur off work.

The issue in this OP is somewhat more complex in that the universities are required by Title IX to establish rules for how to handle issues that are not crimes per se but relate to "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance." Thus the University has to meet these Federal requirements or risk losing Federal grants.

Believe me, universities do not particularly want to be involved in this fashion, but I personally do believe that they, and businesses and other organizations, should be responsible for protecting their employees and others they supervise (e.g. students) from discrimination, etc. in their working/learning environment. And this is not just a no-skin-off-my back theory for me: my job falls squarely under Title IX requirements as a faculty member and I am subject to exactly the same rules, possibility of accusations, hearing processes, and possible loss of my position/appointment as the students.

The real issue then is how to create and apply university-based rules as fairly as possible for both the accuser and to the accused, particularly given that these rules, and the associated punishments, do not fall under governmental criminal justice systems and therefore do not have the same mandated associated protections. Some courts, I believe appropriately, have determined that the punishment of being kicked out of school is substantial enough to require higher protection levels for the accused than some universities have provided. But to my knowledge no court has ruled that university regulations on sexual harassment for eg. must be identical to the regulations and processes in the criminal justice system, in part because they are not dealing with governmental crimes.

From anecdotal information I tend to believe that protections for the accused should be somewhat stronger, but I do not know how it works overall and also I recognize that for many decades and centuries it was the (female) accuser who suffered all the disadvantages to the point that most guilty individuals went unpunished and sexual predators flourished.

It is a complex issue, one that cannot be decided on through fake outrage or bombast. I found the overall ACLU position reasonable and largely focused on issues other than protections for the accuser versus the accused. I have mixed feelings of where I stand on the latter, and frankly I will need to do more research and think more about this. But you know, sometimes there are situations that lead to compromises that are not perfectly fair to either side... It sucks, but it might be the best humans can do.
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:23 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If I get busted for driving around North Dakota with an ounce of weed, my job shouldn't be able to fire me?
Nope.
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:28 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
IMO it is still double jeopardy.

If you are cleared of criminal wrongdoing by the justice system, you should not be tried by a 3rd party operating with it's own set of rules.
Happens all the time. By civil actions. By employers. By clubs and other private organizations. Perhaps worse still in terms of its impact, but by relatives and friends. Often without a trial! One can be judged not guilty of a crime in court yet have your life ruined by social pressures. And sometimes quite justifiably. "Ha, the court rules there was insufficient evidence that I molested your daughter. So we're good, right?" Well, don't count on it!
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:30 AM   #145
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It is inexplicable that people think it is OK to "compromise" basic principles of due process
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:32 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Happens all the time. By civil actions. By employers. By clubs and other private organizations. Perhaps worse still in terms of its impact, but by relatives and friends. Often without a trial! One can be judged not guilty of a crime in court yet have your life ruined by social pressures. And sometimes quite justifiably. "Ha, the court rules there was insufficient evidence that I molested your daughter. So we're good, right?" Well, don't count on it!
Universities arenít private organizations
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:32 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not really. The relationship between a school and a student isn't equivalent to the relationship between an employer and an employee.

That doesn't mean that schools have no business adjudicating any of these sexual assault/harassment complaints, because those issues aren't equivalent to smoking pot either. But the parallel you're trying to draw is a bad one.

Plus, of course, it's all unnecessary. If you object categorically to schools handling these issues, then these new rules about how exactly schools should do that are irrelevant, and this thread isn't the place to address that objection.
Often, they do represent their school, especially if they compete athletically or even academically with other colleges.
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:40 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Often, they do represent their school, especially if they compete athletically or even academically with other colleges.
That's a specific subcategory of students, not students in general.
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:44 AM   #149
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One thing I should mention: to my knowledge accusations of sexual harassment, the investigation, and the findings are kept fairly confidential at my university. I do not believe that findings of sexual harassment can even be included in letters of reference unless they meet a very strong test of relevance visa vie the next position being applied for.

Therefore although the accused being kicked out as a student is certainly a serious and substantial punishment (this is one of the ultimate penalties but is fairly rare compared to most of the lesser ones), I don't believe that the reason is made public and therefore is not necessarily associated with a life-long cloud unless the "confirmed" harasser chooses to share that information widely. This may not be true elsewhere - I do not know.
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:47 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's a specific subcategory of students, not students in general.
Why does that make a difference?
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:56 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Universities arenít private organizations
Many are! Are we restricting our conversation to public universities? In fact my list did not include universities of any kind - I only pointed out that society as a whole, at many, many levels, punishes people severely who nonetheless are found not guilty by the criminal justice system. And it is not always unfair - often society has a right to judge what is acceptable whether a crime or not.

If you do want to bring in public universities, it is somewhat complicated. They are not arms of the state or city criminal justice system. In fact they are not arms of the state/city in most ways: these governments partially fund them (typically poorly) and impose some rules, but most rules, regulations, and the actual running of the universities are through boards of regents and through university-adminstrators/faculty committees. The rules that employees and students operate under are an additional layer very distinct from those of the government. In this OP we are in fact discussing many issues that are not even crimes, but are violations of university rules, so double jeopardy doesn't apply. One obvious if off topic example, a student unable to maintain a certain GPA will be kicked out of a public university even though that is not a crime.
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:01 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is inexplicable that people think it is OK to "compromise" basic principles of due process
Well said indeed!

And I sure do look forward to your demonstration of this high ideal.
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:02 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If I get busted for driving around North Dakota with an ounce of weed, my job shouldn't be able to fire me?
Nope.

If it creates negative publicity that makes it harder for your employers to operate and make money, then they probably should have the right to fire you. I donít think thatís what the ACLU is interested in here though.

A better analogy may be a company that lax safety polices or has safety policies that it doesnít really enforce so that unsafe practices become commonplace. If someone gets hurt because management allows the work environment to become unsafe should they be liable? In extreme cases maybe they could even face criminal charges, but certainly civil charges should apply.

The school has a similar responsibility to create an environment that is safe for itís students, and when itís a specific group that (women in this case) that inordinately suffer the consequences it becomes something the ACLU is likely to take an interest in.
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:02 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Believe me, universities do not particularly want to be involved in this fashion, but I personally do believe that they, and businesses and other organizations, should be responsible for protecting their employees and others they supervise (e.g. students) from discrimination, etc. in their working/learning environment. And this is not just a no-skin-off-my back theory for me: my job falls squarely under Title IX requirements as a faculty member and I am subject to exactly the same rules, possibility of accusations, hearing processes, and possible loss of my position/appointment as the students.
I don't think it's the norm for faculty to be subject to the exact same process as students. For comparison, from Cornell University:
Complaints against students
Complaints against faculty and staff
They are very similar, but not identical. In particular, after the investigation of allegations is complete, if the accusation is against a student then it goes to a 3-member Hearing Panel to make a decision. If the accusation is against a faculty or staff member, the report goes to a Dean or Vice President (whoever is in charge of your unit) to make a decision.
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:04 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Why does that make a difference?
Because title IX rules don't apply to specific categories of students, but to all students.
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:04 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Why shouldn't they be able to decide?
They receive taxpayer funding. Technically, *you* should be able to decide. Which, through the miracle of representative democracy, is exactly what you're doing.

You're paying good money so that people in this country can get a college education. Why *shouldn't* you have a say in how the people who are taking your money decide to deny education?
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:05 AM   #157
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Time and again, this circuit has reiterated that students have a substantial interest at stake when it comes to school disciplinary hearings for sexual misconduct. Doe v. Miami Univ., 882 F.3d 579, 600 (6th Cir. 2018); Univ. of Cincinnati, 872 F.3d at 400; Doe v. Cummins, 662 F. App'x 437, 446 (6th Cir. 2016). Being labeled a sex offender by a university has both an immediate and lasting impact on a student's life. Miami Univ., 882 F.3d at 600. The student may be forced to withdraw from his classes and move out of his university housing. Id. His personal relationships might suffer. See id. And he could face difficulty obtaining educational and employment opportunities down the road, especially if he is expelled. Id.

Doe v. Baum, No. 17-2213 (6th Cir. Sept. 7, 2018).
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:06 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Many are! Are we restricting our conversation to public universities?
Yes.

Quote:
If you do want to bring in public universities, it is somewhat complicated.
Not really. Itís actually simple. Want to take public money? Then you canít act like a fascist. Do you have a problem with universities being unable to discriminate against minorities if they take public funding?
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:07 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
visa vie
<pedant>
vis-a-vis (from the Latin face to face)
</pedant>
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Old 20th November 2018, 11:11 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Many are! Are we restricting our conversation to public universities?
Yes.
Not exactly. Title IX is restricted to schools which accept federal funding. That includes private universities, but the public has an interest in them through that funding. But such universities are free to ignore title IX rules, if they give up that federal funding.
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