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Old 29th November 2018, 08:32 AM   #1
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Partisan Election Officials Are 'Inherently Unfair' But Probably Here To Stay

NPR: It would take a massive overhaul of state laws to make election administration truly nonpartisan. Voters say they want it, and experts are calling for it, but it probably isn't coming anytime soon.

NPR: https://www.npr.org/2018/11/29/67152...ftHgasPFjokO80
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:31 PM   #2
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Elections Canada
Elections Canada is the independent, non-partisan agency responsible for conducting federal elections and referendums.

Australian Electoral Commission
The AEC is responsible for conducting federal elections and referendums and maintaining the Commonwealth electoral roll. The AEC also provides a range of electoral information and education programs and activities.

Well, golly, if us socialist countries out here can do independent electoral management in some form, surely it should be possible easily in the USA...
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 29th November 2018 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 29th November 2018, 07:36 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Well, golly, if us socialist countries out here can do independent electoral management in some form, surely it should be possible easily in the USA...


They swear they'll get around to it once they've figured out how we both pulled off Universal Health Care.


A Wizard did it!
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Old 29th November 2018, 11:45 PM   #4
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Do we have evidence of these political figures choosing a partisan decision over what they think is correct?
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Old 30th November 2018, 12:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do we have evidence of these political figures choosing a partisan decision over what they think is correct?
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:17 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do we have evidence of these political figures choosing a partisan decision over what they think is correct?
Do we have to when we have evidence from numerous cases and examples that what they think is correct is what will benefit their party. Instead of hoping why not just remove the political affiliation requirement in various state election institutions. Sorta how at one time we actually relied on "The Deep State" of lifers in public service to correct the courses of the whacko-partisan legislators and executives.

I'll throw away my vote to the Green, Libertarian, Pants on Cows, Rhinoceros Party candidate who goes out with a platform to:

Take the judiciary off of ballots. Elected lower court officials mean you have guaranteed partisan judges in the higher courts.

Bureaucratize every level of election supervision and make it illegal for parties to be involved other than as observers of the professional bureaucrats.

Propose advertising and spending caps on elections. Take the financiers out of the game. Total electoral reform.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:21 AM   #7
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The US is astonishing in its backward-thinking, fearful-of-change attitudes. Late to the party in so many ways. Take metric, for instance. Or universal health care. Or sensible gun laws. Or a long outmoded electoral college. Or....

For the so-called greatest nation and leader of the free world, the US is in a number of respects so last century (19th, that is.)

I really hope that it's realized the time has come for real electoral reform for my southern neighbors. That might get the ball rolling on other necessary changes for the better.
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:26 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do we have evidence of these political figures choosing a partisan decision over what they think is correct?
I have to admit, that's a good 95% concentrated bob, there. Nicely done.
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Do we have to when we have evidence from numerous cases and examples that what they think is correct is what will benefit their party.
But it hasn't been established that not doing that will produce better results. While I don't care about results and would totally back you if you said you didn't, I don't think you are going to say that.
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:46 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But it hasn't been established that not doing that will produce better results.
Define "better".
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:50 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Define "better".
I'm not defining it. I'm leaving that completely up to foolmewunz.
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:55 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not defining it. I'm leaving that completely up to foolmewunz.
So he'd have to define "better", since your "better" might be different than his, right?

Then of course he'd had to define all the terms he'd use for the definition, to make sure you're not getting confused or anything. Of course that'd just allow for some fractal jabbaesque sub-issue wormhole to ensue.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:02 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So he'd have to define "better", since your "better" might be different than his, right?

Then of course he'd had to define all the terms he'd use for the definition, to make sure you're not getting confused or anything. Of course that'd just allow for some fractal jabbaesque sub-issue wormhole to ensue.
I rarely argue what is better. The thing that bugs people seems to be my indifference to policy outcomes that produce better or worse results. Heck, I agree all the time when people say my policy proposals create bad results.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:04 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I rarely argue what is better.
Indeed. That would mean that you're trying to make the conversation more productive, and we can't have that.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:12 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Indeed. That would mean that you're trying to make the conversation more productive, and we can't have that.
Forums are not productive.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:13 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Forums are not productive.
That would mean that discussion is not productive, but then, that's on par with your usual thoughts.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:14 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That would mean that discussion is not productive, but then, that's on par with your usual thoughts.
Discussions are not.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 30th November 2018 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:14 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Do we have to when we have evidence from numerous cases and examples that what they think is correct is what will benefit their party. Instead of hoping why not just remove the political affiliation requirement in various state election institutions. Sorta how at one time we actually relied on "The Deep State" of lifers in public service to correct the courses of the whacko-partisan legislators and executives.

I'll throw away my vote to the Green, Libertarian, Pants on Cows, Rhinoceros Party candidate who goes out with a platform to:

Take the judiciary off of ballots. Elected lower court officials mean you have guaranteed partisan judges in the higher courts.

Bureaucratize every level of election supervision and make it illegal for parties to be involved other than as observers of the professional bureaucrats.

Propose advertising and spending caps on elections. Take the financiers out of the game. Total electoral reform.
I'm onboard with those.
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:08 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Elections Canada
Elections Canada is the independent, non-partisan agency responsible for conducting federal elections and referendums.

Australian Electoral Commission
The AEC is responsible for conducting federal elections and referendums and maintaining the Commonwealth electoral roll. The AEC also provides a range of electoral information and education programs and activities.

Well, golly, if us socialist countries out here can do independent electoral management in some form, surely it should be possible easily in the USA...
You can add the UK Electoral Commission to that.
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Old 30th November 2018, 12:47 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
The US is astonishing in its backward-thinking, fearful-of-change attitudes. Late to the party in so many ways.
AKA Conservative
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:59 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Discussions are not.
Then why do you participate in them?
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Then why do you participate in them?
I don't require something to be productive to desire doing it. If that were a requirement in life, mobile gaming wouldn't exist.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't require something to be productive to desire doing it. If that were a requirement in life, mobile gaming wouldn't exist.
Mobile gaming is productive, it provides entertainment. If your view is that debating is pointless, why engage in it? Especially when you seem so unable to actually to commit to a point of view.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:01 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't require something to be productive to desire doing it. If that were a requirement in life, mobile gaming wouldn't exist.
That does not answer the question.
He didn't ask if you required something to be productive. He asked why you participate.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:24 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
That does not answer the question.
He didn't ask if you required something to be productive. He asked why you participate.
Then that is none of your business and is off topic.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:39 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Discussions are not.
Is that a belief or an opinion?
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:41 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then that is none of your business and is off topic.
Why is it none of my business?

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Old 30th November 2018, 06:54 PM   #28
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I'm going out to save drowning kittens now. I need to do penance for trying to address a stupid contention and inviting the latest Bob-a-thon.

Bob... you keep falling into the mock-existentialist trap. All this edgy libertarian neutrality is crap. If you can't agree that "fair elections" are "better" than "not fair" elections then this is like trying to explain Plato's Utopia to a cargo cult tribe. We have no frames of reference in common.

You have to work from some a priori concept of "good" or "right". My version would be that "fair" (as in egalitarian not as in poor/fair/good/better/best) elections are the essence of what we're trying to achieve.

Does anyone actually have a problem with that?
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:13 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'm going out to save drowning kittens now. I need to do penance for trying to address a stupid contention and inviting the latest Bob-a-thon.

Bob... you keep falling into the mock-existentialist trap. All this edgy libertarian neutrality is crap. If you can't agree that "fair elections" are "better" than "not fair" elections then this is like trying to explain Plato's Utopia to a cargo cult tribe. We have no frames of reference in common.

You have to work from some a priori concept of "good" or "right". My version would be that "fair" (as in egalitarian not as in poor/fair/good/better/best) elections are the essence of what we're trying to achieve.

Does anyone actually have a problem with that?
I explicitly did not challenge anyone's contention of good. I'm asking proof that changing this achieves that. You haven't established non partisan makes more egalitarian choices. I don't need an opinion on egalitarianism to ask that.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I explicitly did not challenge anyone's contention of good. I'm asking proof that changing this achieves that. You haven't established non partisan makes more egalitarian choices. I don't need an opinion on egalitarianism to ask that.
No, Bob. I don't need to prove that a system never tried that makes sense to anyone who has gotten past "Waaaah! I don't wanna eat carrots they look yukky! No. Not even going to try a bite!" thinking. The current system sucks. It is managed by elected or appointed officials with party connections, and thus, logically, party loyalties. So let's try the sensible-sounding solution.

This isn't that difficult. Current system bad. New system needed. Come up with ideas rather than being a fatalist and saying "it might be just as bad so let's leave it that way".

I believe that you think your little counter-insurgency gambit is doing us all a bit of good and making us re-think positions. It isn't. It is merely forcing us to remember how we had to teach our eight-year-olds the basics of egalitarianism. The shorthand works, and it's not requiring a lot of soul-gazing or navel-contemplation. "One Man(sic) One Vote". My son has it figured out.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:43 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
No, Bob. I don't need to prove that a system never tried that makes sense to anyone who has gotten past "Waaaah! I don't wanna eat carrots they look yukky! No. Not even going to try a bite!" thinking. The current system sucks. It is managed by elected or appointed officials with party connections, and thus, logically, party loyalties. So let's try the sensible-sounding solution.

This isn't that difficult. Current system bad. New system needed. Come up with ideas rather than being a fatalist and saying "it might be just as bad so let's leave it that way".

I believe that you think your little counter-insurgency gambit is doing us all a bit of good and making us re-think positions. It isn't. It is merely forcing us to remember how we had to teach our eight-year-olds the basics of egalitarianism. The shorthand works, and it's not requiring a lot of soul-gazing or navel-contemplation. "One Man(sic) One Vote". My son has it figured out.
Sorry, I don't accept assertions without evidence. Those are a lot of words to say you are not presenting evidence.

You didn't even present evidence the current system sucks.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:47 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not defining it. I'm leaving that completely up to foolmewunz.
I think that's utter nonsense. The very idea that "better" is an issue here suggests a contempt for democracy. The only relevant issue is whether election officials bias or corrupt the results of an election.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:49 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think that's utter nonsense. The very idea that "better" is an issue here suggests a contempt for democracy. The only relevant issue is whether election officials bias or corrupt the results of an election.
I do have contempt for democracy.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Sorry, I don't accept assertions without evidence. Those are a lot of words to say you are not presenting evidence.

You didn't even present evidence the current system sucks.
Nor have I presented evidence of the nitrogen/oxygen mixture of our atmosphere, yet there you are still breathing and still posting. Do you accept anything as a "given"?

Both sides (political-party-wise) think the system is broken when it works to the other's advantage. That's a big tell right there. Could they both be right and it's only broken when it works to the other's advantage or are they jaded and only care that their side benefits. Since the former is onto logically impossible, it's obviously the latter. Knowledge of human thinking and bias is the only "evidence" you need if you're capable of extrapolating.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:48 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I do have contempt for democracy.
I can understand why - democracy attaches no particular weight to your opinion.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:51 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Nor have I presented evidence of the nitrogen/oxygen mixture of our atmosphere, yet there you are still breathing and still posting. Do you accept anything as a "given"?
No
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
I can understand why - democracy attaches no particular weight to your opinion.
I have equal disdain for my views.
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Old 30th November 2018, 11:51 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I do have contempt for democracy.
And presumably a contempt for fair elections, which makes one wonder what your beef is with the thread. It would appear that you are saying you do think partisan officials are inherently unfair, and approve of the situation.
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:53 AM   #39
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
And presumably a contempt for fair elections, which makes one wonder what your beef is with the thread. It would appear that you are saying you do think partisan officials are inherently unfair, and approve of the situation.
I have no stance on partisan officials because I haven't seen evidence supporting a claim on it.
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Old 1st December 2018, 12:21 PM   #40
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Well, I came into this thread hoping to read a discussion on a topic I think is interesting and timely.

Instead I find a troll jacking off all over himself and being rewarded with a dinner buffet.
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