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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:37 PM   #81
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
No, Abbott, he didn't. He was your straight man. The answer as to why local rules are allowed to vary is not "I'm X and not Y". The answer to that is to explain to us why your silly state authorities should have the right to implement idiosyncratic Arizona rules and yet Tucson and Mesa and Phoenix cannot implement idiosyncratic local rules - - if it effects the governance of the state. "Because I think I'm an Arizonan more than an American" is not answer. It borders on Trump's "well, I call it an invasion".
I don't think individual states should have or not have the power to do it. I'm just expressing my personal problems with north dakotans.

ETA: I'm completely open to proposals that cities or individuals make their own rules. I'm even open to proposals letting people vote more than once.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 2nd December 2018 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:39 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think individual states should have or not have the power to do it. I'm just expressing my personal problems with north dakotans.
Well, North Dakotans, sure! You didn't say North Dakotans. I thought we were talking about normal people.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:18 AM   #83
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I guess Ohio and Florida are different than Arizona*, so they don't count as evidence to Bob (numbers are references in the source):
Quote:
The consequences of partisan politics creeping into election administration are grave. The 2004 Ohio experience shows what happens when politics enters the who, when, and where of election administration. In 2004, Ohio’s top election official, Kenneth Blackwell, was also the co-chair of President Bush’s re-election committee.5 As Secretary of State, Blackwell had broad powers to interpret and implement state and federal election laws covering everything from processing voter registrations to conducting official recounts.6 Blackwell was vocal about his strong partisan views and publicly denounced John Kerry as “an unapologetic liberal Democrat.”7 An investigation by Rep. John Conyers looked into more than 50,000 complaints from voters and concluded that the voting problems that arose were “caused by intentional misconduct and illegal behavior, much of it involving Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell.”8

A similar situation arose four years earlier in Florida in 2000. Controversy surrounded the state’s recount and the Secretary of State, Katherine Harris, was at the center of controversy due to irregularities in vote counting and election administration. In addition to overseeing the state’s election administration, Harris was also co-chair of George W. Bush’s Florida campaign.9 An extensive investigation by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights into Florida’s election found that there was, in fact, widespread disenfranchisement due to restrictive statutory provisions, wide-ranging errors and inadequate and unequal resources in election administration.10

Through their investigation, the commission found that African Americans voters were nearly ten times more likely than white voters to have their ballots rejected.11 African American voting districts were also disproportionately hindered by antiquated and error-prone equipment and poorer counties, especially those with higher populations of people of color, were more likely to use voting systems with higher spoilage rates than more affluent counties with higher populations of white voters.12 African-Americans were also disproportionately purged from voter rolls.13 The Commission concluded by recommending non-partisan election administration for full accountability and transparency.14

* - Due to differences in DNA, plus Arizonans are clean-living, not like degenerates back East. Or something.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 04:44 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I guess Ohio and Florida are different than Arizona*, so they don't count as evidence to Bob (numbers are references in the source):



* - Due to differences in DNA, plus Arizonans are clean-living, not like degenerates back East. Or something.
Florida is filled with degenerates. There is a whole Twitter account dedicated to it.

But actual research! Thank you! Skepticism isn't that hard people! The data is out there. If you make a claim, back it up.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:24 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Florida is filled with degenerates. There is a whole Twitter account dedicated to it.

But actual research! Thank you! Skepticism isn't that hard people! The data is out there. If you make a claim, back it up.
It's not har for you to also find this yourself, instead of just wait for it. Wouldn't you say active skepticism is a better way than passive skepticism? Or do you need evidence that it is?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:29 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
It's not har for you to also find this yourself, instead of just wait for it. Wouldn't you say active skepticism is a better way than passive skepticism? Or do you need evidence that it is?
The burden of proof isn't on me. I'm not going to voluntarily carry someone else's burden if they are capable of lifting it. Especially not on an issue I don't care about.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:38 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The burden of proof isn't on me. I'm not going to voluntarily carry someone else's burden if they are capable of lifting it. Especially not on an issue I don't care about.
The burden is to get to the Truth. If you take a passive role, and want the truth to come to you and sit in your lap, it will take quite a long time. But if you are truly curious about the Truth of a position, you will seek out as much as you can, pro and con, on a subject you are interested in.

Since you are claiming to not see an advantage, you have taken an interest, and as a seeker of Truth it behooves you to try to verify as much as possible, whether that null hypothesis is a valid one.

If you are not interested in finding the Truth, only to let others do so and then challenge whether they have evidence, you are not an engine on the train of progress, you are a squeaky dragging boxcar.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:47 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
The burden is to get to the Truth. If you take a passive role, and want the truth to come to you and sit in your lap, it will take quite a long time. But if you are truly curious about the Truth of a position, you will seek out as much as you can, pro and con, on a subject you are interested in.

Since you are claiming to not see an advantage, you have taken an interest, and as a seeker of Truth it behooves you to try to verify as much as possible, whether that null hypothesis is a valid one.

If you are not interested in finding the Truth, only to let others do so and then challenge whether they have evidence, you are not an engine on the train of progress, you are a squeaky dragging boxcar.
Sounds like something a person trying to neglect their burden of proof would say.

The burden is on the person making the claim. End of story.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:15 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The burden is on the person making the claim. End of story.
Evidence for the above claim please.

I will reject anything that is opinion, of course. Hard solid numerical facts to support the above claim please.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:16 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Discussions are not.
Par for the bob.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:25 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Sounds like something a person trying to neglect their burden of proof would say.

The burden is on the person making the claim. End of story.
Except I'm not neglecting anything.

Are you interested in a fair administration of elections, or not? If you are, get to the truth.

The path to meaningful discussion is to try to bring something to the table.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:32 AM   #92
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Question

Originally Posted by beren View Post
Evidence for the above claim please.

I will reject anything that is opinion, of course. Hard solid numerical facts to support the above claim please.
I only share opinions because I understand how hard it is to assert something is true and back it up. So I try not to do that.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:33 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Except I'm not neglecting anything.

Are you interested in a fair administration of elections, or not? If you are, get to the truth.

The path to meaningful discussion is to try to bring something to the table.
I plan to take this to the philosophy forum today.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:37 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I only share opinions because I understand how hard it is to assert something is true and back it up. So I try not to do that.
You claim that you try not to.
Evidence for this claim please.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:52 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
You claim that you try not to.
Evidence for this claim please.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
I'm not interested in you accepting my claims. O welcome your rejection of it.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 12:00 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Calling yourself non-partisan fools very few people. Do the members of the agency check their personal beliefs at the door?
When I have served as an election judge, I have done exactly that. Also what Horatius said about enacting policies at work, even when I disagree.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 12:25 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not interested in you accepting my claims. O welcome your rejection of it.
That is irrelevant.
You made a claim. You have a burden to support it.
This is not about whether or not I accept it.
It is about whether you will meet your burden.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 12:41 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
That is irrelevant.
You made a claim. You have a burden to support it.
This is not about whether or not I accept it.
It is about whether you will meet your burden.
The burden is there only if I wish people to accept it. I have no desire if they do. Old men shouting at pigeons are still free to do so.

ETA: let me rephrase. I do have the burden.but I also have no interest in convincing anyone so I will not lift it. I'm cool with it staying on the ground there.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 01:11 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The burden is there only if I wish people to accept it. I have no desire if they do. Old men shouting at pigeons are still free to do so.

ETA: let me rephrase. I do have the burden.but I also have no interest in convincing anyone so I will not lift it. I'm cool with it staying on the ground there.
I just want it on record that you are unwilling to meet the standards that you demand of others. I consider this to be circumstantial evidence of your motivations in these threads. I am inferring your motivations since, when asked what they were, you refused to answers.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 01:14 PM   #100
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You don't have to infer anything. Bob admits what he is doing. He's proud of it.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 01:18 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Someone who has not been presented the evidence that non partisan produces more fair results.
We have examples where partisan officials have worked to produce deliberately unfair results.

That is sufficient.

And anyway - why do you care about fairness, given your other stated views?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:46 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
I just want it on record that you are unwilling to meet the standards that you demand of others. I consider this to be circumstantial evidence of your motivations in these threads. I am inferring your motivations since, when asked what they were, you refused to answers.
I am happy I don't meet the standard, I understand the consequences of that and accept them.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:48 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
We have examples where partisan officials have worked to produce deliberately unfair results.

That is sufficient.

And anyway - why do you care about fairness, given your other stated views?
Until LSBB presented them, data was lacking in this thread. Your examples are likely sufficient....but you got to say what they are.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 03:06 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Until LSBB presented them, data was lacking in this thread. Your examples are likely sufficient....but you got to say what they are.
Dodge City moving its polling station somewhere difficult to access is one example. There is every reason to suppose malice.

Having different opening times for polling stations within a state, where the "inconvenient" voters tend to get worse times is another.

This is also another.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.b53560634212

There are plenty more if you can be bothered to google
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Old 3rd December 2018, 03:25 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Dodge City moving its polling station somewhere difficult to access is one example. There is every reason to suppose malice.

Having different opening times for polling stations within a state, where the "inconvenient" voters tend to get worse times is another.

This is also another.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.b53560634212

There are plenty more if you can be bothered to google
Dodge City was the very first example that came to mind when this subject came up. I also remembered the Ohio and Florida cases from the news once upon a time.

But the thing that seals it for me is the idea of Mike Madigan having a hand in administering Illinois elections.

As it is, the Illinois Board Of Elections is run jointly by the two major parties (sorry, Libertarians!) and members are selected by the Governor - soon to be Pritzker, a Madigan crony.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 03:57 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Dodge City was the very first example that came to mind when this subject came up. I also remembered the Ohio and Florida cases from the news once upon a time.

But the thing that seals it for me is the idea of Mike Madigan having a hand in administering Illinois elections.

As it is, the Illinois Board Of Elections is run jointly by the two major parties (sorry, Libertarians!) and members are selected by the Governor - soon to be Pritzker, a Madigan crony.
Yes, and with such openly partisan officials, the onus is on them to demonstrate that their actions at least are impartial.
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:19 PM   #107
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By comparison, countries with independent electoral commissions mean those workers are required by law to ensure elections are run fairly. If it is found they are not run fairly, they will get called on the mat to explain. The penalties can be harsh, so the incentive to ensure fairness is strong.
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Old 5th December 2018, 03:20 PM   #108
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North Carolina is taking action:

Quote:
Former Obama White House lawyer Daniel Jacobson also called out Tar Heel State Republicans on Twitter for the perceived power-grab.

“The NC GOP is trying to rush through a law that would REQUIRE every county elections board in NC to be chaired by a Republican in election years,” he said.”These guys just can’t stop trying to rig elections.”

Here’s the language that has people incensed:

In the even-numbered year, the chair shall be a member of the political party with the second highest number of registered affiliates as reflected by the latest registration statistics published by the State Board.

This is a fairly obvious attempt to ensure that Republicans always control county election boards of during election years. Why? Because registered Democrats consistently–and by leaps and bounds–outnumber registered Republicans in North Carolina–and there’s no indication party affiliation numbers would change to favor Republicans any time soon.

In fact, Democrats have such a massive registration advantage over their GOP counterparts that “unaffiliated” voters are actually the second largest grouping of voters in North Carolina. But since the proposed law specifies “political party,” this effectively means the GOP would always control county election boards during the years when federal elections occur.
Linky.
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Old 5th December 2018, 05:16 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Are you capable of checking yours?
Of course not. That is precisely the problem.
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Old 5th December 2018, 05:24 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
In all that MAGA rhetoric, is there anything about bible-huggers who would vote to defend secular government from the over-reach of proselytizing poseurs? It was very common and one of the lynch pins of the candidacy of a noted Catholic and noted Evangelist president.

Make America great again, like when we could rely on judges with a conscious and the rare county electoral officials to say, "Sorry, Cletus... it's the law and I gotta let 'em vote."

Start by taking the choice of actual officials away from the parties, as it's always the party-in-power. We don't need the consternation when the city, county or state changes. Neutral bureaucratic professionals who are steeped in the regulations would be a far better method. The quadrennial fiasco in Florida should be the How Not to Do This model. Dems point to the corrupt vote-counters in the panhandle; GOPers point to the corrupt vote-counters in Miami. It's ongoing and the bastards like it because they all think, "Yeah, but we'll be in power next time and we'll run things our way". Not "run things the fair way", but "our" way.
There is no realistic way to make a group of people non-partisan. You can talk about "neutral bureaucratic professionals," but neutral people don't exist. The only realistic way to handle it is to make the group 50% D, 50% R, but then you run the risk that they deadlock on everything.
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Old 5th December 2018, 06:13 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There is no realistic way to make a group of people non-partisan. You can talk about "neutral bureaucratic professionals," but neutral people don't exist. The only realistic way to handle it is to make the group 50% D, 50% R, but then you run the risk that they deadlock on everything.
That's funny, every day I go to work at a place that is pretty much non-partisan for all intents and purposes.

Is there bias? Not significantly.

Is this another case of things that can happen anywhere else but American government?
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Old 5th December 2018, 09:44 PM   #112
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
There is no realistic way to make a group of people non-partisan. You can talk about "neutral bureaucratic professionals," but neutral people don't exist. The only realistic way to handle it is to make the group 50% D, 50% R, but then you run the risk that they deadlock on everything.
Don't be silly. If your job spec is to run a fair election and you fail to meet that job spec then you can expect to suffer consequences.

Best example: The silly twit who refused to issue marriage licenses to a gay couple even though it was legal. She is quite entitled to hate the whole idea and not like that part of the job, but she was employed and paid to do the job. Plenty of others thought likewise but did do the job. By refusing to perform her job, she lost her job ultimately.

That's how electoral commissions work too. I'm sure that all our electoral commission employees have a wide variety of quite possibly contradictory political views. But their job is to make sure the election process runs fairly as per the letter of the electoral laws.
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:38 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
That's funny, every day I go to work at a place that is pretty much non-partisan for all intents and purposes.
And I assume your place of work has nothing to do with elections.

Let me ask you about the nuts and bolts of selecting a non-partisan board. Who does the picking? Presumably some elected officials, or otherwise there is no accountability to the people. Or are they elected officials themselves?

You know how it is; I can buy in this day and age that we can design a computer program to do a better job of creating congressional districts, that is reasonably non-partisan. Set a bunch of parameters (maintain existing districts as much as possible, make sure that you don't break small towns in two, etc.) and let the computer tell you where the boundaries should be. That's because it's a job perfectly suited to a computer.

Unfortunately running an election is not something that a computer can do yet, and even if one is designed I'd certainly want to know about the biases of the programmers.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:07 PM   #114
LSSBB
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And I assume your place of work has nothing to do with elections.

Let me ask you about the nuts and bolts of selecting a non-partisan board. Who does the picking? Presumably some elected officials, or otherwise there is no accountability to the people. Or are they elected officials themselves?

<rest snipped>
From the link I shared previously (numbers are references in the source):

Quote:
Current Best Practice

The most advanced model for non-partisan election administration is Wisconsin. A recent review of Wisconsin’s Government Accountability Board (GAB) found that it was a genuinely nonpartisan institution whose decisions did not favor either major party.15 Both parties were at times satisfied and dissatisfied by the GAB’s action, but more importantly, the GAB fairly and evenhandedly interpreted and implemented the elections laws it is charged with implementing.16 The review concluded that the GAB’s, “manner of decision making has been meticulous, careful, and judicious,” and “The GAB thus serves as a worthy model for the remaining 49 states, all of which still have partisan or bipartisan chief election authorities—despite the emerging international consensus that independence from partisan politics is essential to proper election administration.”17

Wisconsin’s GAB is made up of six former judges that are nominated by a panel of four state Appeals Court judges, appointed by the Governor, and confirmed by the Senate.18 Each Board member serves staggered six year terms with one member’s term expiring each year.

To prevent any potential conflicts of interest, the GAB has several restrictions. For one, no Board members may hold another office or position that is a state public office or a local public office, except the office of circuit judge or court of appeals judge.19 In addition, no member, while serving on the board, may become a candidate for state office or local office.

GAB members cannot have been a member of a political party or an officer/member of a committee in any partisan political club or organization for one year immediately prior to the date of nomination.20 No member may make a contribution to a candidate, for state office or local office while serving on the board or 12 months prior to that service.21 Finally, GAB members cannot be a lobbyist or an employee of a principal, except for serving as a circuit judge or court of appeals judge.22

Principles for Non-Partisan Election Administration

Nonpartisan election administration can be conducted through a commission or a board or a single office. Diversity should be an important consideration in the composition of any board or commission. The nonpartisan entity should adhere to the following principles:

Non-partisan Elections Administration entity should appoint a professional nonpartisan CEO that is hired and fired by Elections Board.
Civil service based hiring practices should be applied for administrators.
Pre-Election Administration Plans (EAPs), or any written plan, should be adopted to institutionalize ‘best practices’ across elections.
Strict lobbying, campaign contribution, & electioneering restrictions should be adhered to by staff and the CEO that is retroactive to at least 12 months before appointment or hire date.
A stable & statewide uniform elections board funding formula should be implemented based on county population, past election needs, and adjusted to inflation to ensure that election commissions are continually fully funded and are not dependent on year to year funding.
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Old 7th December 2018, 05:36 PM   #115
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When I mentioned Madigan earlier, here are the kind of partisan shenanigans that are concerning, this one from the Democrats.

Column: A college kid running for 13th Ward alderman gets a lesson in the Chicago Way

Quote:
More than 2,700 revocations were turned over to the elections board to cancel the signatures on Krupa’s petitions. Chicago Board of Elections officials had never seen such a massive pile of revocations.

“The board has received a few revocations here and there in very rare electoral board cases over the years,” said election board spokesman Jim Allen.

But more than 2,700? Impossible, no?

“They're pretty rare, and no one can remember anything approaching this volume of filings in past cases,” Allen said. “For the board, the next step is to begin the hearings on all of the objections that have been filed against any candidates' nominating petitions. We can't speculate, though, on the legitimacy or any other legal questions about any of the objections or the corresponding petitions.”

The number of revocations far exceeds the number of signatures Krupa collected. That means false affidavits were filed with the elections board.

Why would thousands of people lie on a legal document of revocation, and say they’d signed Krupa’s petitions, when they didn’t sign Krupa’s petitions? Were they just being nice?

Mike Kasper, the elections lawyer for the 13th Ward, said his side has filed objections to Krupa’s petitions of candidacy and “we’ll wait for the elections board to take it up when it does.”

Pressed about the large number of revocation petitions, Kasper said he's aware of the issue, but that “it is my practice to decline comment on any pending litigation.”

There is no litigation, yet, but election attorney Michael Dorf, who is representing Krupa, says this case is a “clown car of felonies.”

“You know the 13th Ward better than I do,” Dorf said. “This is clown school and election fraud. This is going way, way beyond the line. David is a huge underdog. Go ahead and beat him on Election Day, or do subtle fraud, like taking away yard signs, but when this number of false affidavits are filed, you’re talking fundamental fraud, epic fraud.

“We turned in 1,703 signatures. We compared them to the 2,796 revocations, and found only 187 matches, meaning only 187 people who signed David’s petitions filed revocations,” Dorf said. “So, what about the 2,609 people who didn’t sign for David but who filed revocations? That’s fraud. That’s perjury. That’s felony.”
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Old 8th December 2018, 10:42 AM   #116
fuelair
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
NPR: It would take a massive overhaul of state laws to make election administration truly nonpartisan. Voters say they want it, and experts are calling for it, but it probably isn't coming anytime soon.

NPR: https://www.npr.org/2018/11/29/67152...ftHgasPFjokO80
Problem is that election officials are pretty certain to be for one or the other party and thus will likely be partisan. BUT acting non partisan is what they should be able to do if they are carrying out their functions.
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Old 11th December 2018, 04:43 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Except I'm not neglecting anything.

Are you interested in a fair administration of elections, or not? If you are, get to the truth.

The path to meaningful discussion is to try to bring something to the table.
This is not what Bob is interested in.
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