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Tags George H.W. Bush , obituaries

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Old 1st December 2018, 11:32 AM   #41
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post


eta:
https://twitter.com/thecommunard17/s...91303515836417
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Last edited by kellyb; 1st December 2018 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 1st December 2018, 04:45 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Fantastic.
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Old 1st December 2018, 04:54 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
One less US Repugnican? Good riddance.
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Old 1st December 2018, 10:46 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...sh-pkg-vpx.cnn

A good watch. He stands in stark contrast to what we have now.
He knew to pardon all his aides under criminal investigation by a special counsel so it didnít lead back to him. And that appointing Clarence Thomas thing which was mirrored in Kavanaugh.
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Old 1st December 2018, 11:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
May the heavens forgive me but... Bush II impressed me as ignorant, in over his head, fact-challenged, and as a person who made one of the biggest mistakes in modern history, one that will echo across time. At the same time he impressed me as a "gentleman" and a decent human being.
Decent if you leave out the Iraq war damage I presume?
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Old 1st December 2018, 11:35 PM   #46
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Apparently "Georgeisinhell' Twitter account has been suspended.

Anyone want to describe CE's link?
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Old 2nd December 2018, 12:01 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
May the heavens forgive me but... Bush II impressed me as ignorant, in over his head, fact-challenged, and as a person who made one of the biggest mistakes in modern history, one that will echo across time. At the same time he impressed me as a "gentleman" and a decent human being.
Yeah, that comment kind of amused me as well. GWB may have had his flaws especially in his youth (unlike me, who was perfect in every way), but he genuinely seems to be a nice guy, loving father and husband. And I will 100% say that Obama strikes me the same way, and that Trump falls more than a little short on gentlemanly qualities (much like Clinton).
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Old 2nd December 2018, 12:52 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Apparently "Georgeisinhell' Twitter account has been suspended.

Anyone want to describe CE's link?

The tweet I linked to just said "damn it's hot down here". It was a parody account with a presidential photo and the display name "George H.W. Bush". Had a good two dozen tweets and around 3K followers at the time I posted it. The particular tweet had around 200K likes and maybe 90K retweets. Totally went viral. Jeez, @jack is such a pussy.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 2nd December 2018 at 01:10 AM. Reason: more data
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Old 2nd December 2018, 09:27 AM   #49
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I never voted for George H.W. Bush but I respected him. I thought he did an excellent job in getting Iraq out of Kuwait. And best of all, he knew when to call off the dogs which, as a Vietnam vet, really impressed me. Bush, Sr. knew an invasion and regime change could be done relatively easily. It was the post-invasion environment that worried him, the price that would have to be paid. And his son proved him right.

I am still surprised he was voted out of office, that he failed to win a second term. And again, I didn't vote for him. But the lousy economy of the early 1990s did him in. Remember, "It's the economy, stupid."
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Old 2nd December 2018, 10:08 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I never voted for George H.W. Bush but I respected him. I thought he did an excellent job in getting Iraq out of Kuwait. And best of all, he knew when to call off the dogs which, as a Vietnam vet, really impressed me. Bush, Sr. knew an invasion and regime change could be done relatively easily. It was the post-invasion environment that worried him, the price that would have to be paid. And his son proved him right.

I am still surprised he was voted out of office, that he failed to win a second term. And again, I didn't vote for him. But the lousy economy of the early 1990s did him in. Remember, "It's the economy, stupid."
Yes, and Ross Perot was the coup de grace. He was the last of the old Republican presidents. He had more in common with Ike than Reagan.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 12:54 PM   #51
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Patrick Lang (who if you read the whole piece thinks a second term for Daddy Bush would have been preferable over Billy Boy):

Quote:
[...] For whatever reason he was adamant that he was going to put paid to Saddam Hussein. In public he made a show of mispronouncing the Iraqi's name, saying Saad-em. In private he pronounced the man's name correctly. The deliberate slight was intentional.

He asked me what the Iraqis, then occupying Kuwait were likely to do. He understood that I had spent quite a lot of time in Kuwait and Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War. I told him that Saddam had been allowed to think that we would not defend Kuwait by the wavering and ambiguous statements made before the Iraqi invasion.

I told him that if he made it clear in an address that occupation of Kuwait meant an all out US military effort to drive them out of the country and that we would not necessarily stop at the border between Iraq and Kuwait that they would withdraw because they knew they could not fight the US successfully.

His response was that he did not want them to withdraw because they must be punished for aggression. [...]

And then "they threw the babies out of the incubators" and the rest is history.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 2nd December 2018 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 01:15 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Decent if you leave out the Iraq war damage I presume?
It was a mistake of biblical magnitude. That was obvious then, and it's obvious now. It caused and continues to cause widespread human suffering.

If you or anyone else thinks that committing a mistake of this magnitude makes a leader an indecent person, that's not something that would prompt me to weigh in. But it's not how I see things.

Be careful. It's easy to paint yourself into a corner where all POTUSes must be considered as not decent people, if we apply standards fairly.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 01:37 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Apparently "Georgeisinhell' Twitter account has been suspended.

Anyone want to describe CE's link?
It was just saying stuff like "Sure is hot down here!"

Very goofy/silly.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 01:45 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It was a mistake of biblical magnitude. That was obvious then, and it's obvious now. It caused and continues to cause widespread human suffering.

If you or anyone else thinks that committing a mistake of this magnitude makes a leader an indecent person, that's not something that would prompt me to weigh in. But it's not how I see things.

Be careful. It's easy to paint yourself into a corner where all POTUSes must be considered as not decent people, if we apply standards fairly.
The torture was not a mere mistake.

I have no problem with the idea that all or almost all presidents were/are less than decent people. I think it's a flaw in human nature that makes it to where in large civilizations, people who are less than decent tend to accumulate the most power.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 01:52 PM   #55
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Re: Iraq, there's also the fact that Bush and co flat-out FAKED the evidence of WMDs. In fact, if Iraq had actually had something like a nuke, we probably wouldn't have invaded. The UN weapons inspections basically served to prove that Iraq was an easy target for takeover.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 01:52 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It was a mistake of biblical magnitude. That was obvious then, and it's obvious now. It caused and continues to cause widespread human suffering.

If you or anyone else thinks that committing a mistake of this magnitude makes a leader an indecent person, that's not something that would prompt me to weigh in. But it's not how I see things.
If it were a mistake.

They lied about the evidence of WMDs
They used 9/11 as an excuse but instead of going after BinLaden, they went after Saddam.
IMO Bush Jr, influenced by Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, and having Daddy issues as well as wanting to be "a war President" (long story on that one) led to the decision to invade Iraq.

I find that a hard 'mistake' to just write off.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The torture was not a mere mistake. ...
And that ^, not a decent man, nope.


Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Be careful. It's easy to paint yourself into a corner where all POTUSes must be considered as not decent people, if we apply standards fairly.
To a degree, most were not decent people. Look at all the 'mistakes' that led to 54,000 deaths of US soldiers in Viet Nam just so said POTUSes could save face.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 02:37 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The torture was not a mere mistake.
True! Clueless of me to forget.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 02:42 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Re: Iraq, there's also the fact that Bush and co flat-out FAKED the evidence of WMDs. In fact, if Iraq had actually had something like a nuke, we probably wouldn't have invaded. The UN weapons inspections basically served to prove that Iraq was an easy target for takeover.

Yeah but Daddy Bush's WMDs were the mentioned "incubator babies". In case you aren't aware of that, here's a brief summary:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


To our days gullible people fall for transparent crap like little Bana from Syria, it's just propaganda 101.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 02:56 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Yeah but Daddy Bush's WMDs were the mentioned "incubator babies". In case you aren't aware of that, here's a brief summary:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


To our days gullible people fall for transparent crap like little Bana from Syria, it's just propaganda 101.
You ain't gotta tell me.
Geopolitics is some horrible, wild stuff.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 02:57 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Re: Iraq, there's also the fact that Bush and co flat-out FAKED the evidence of WMDs. In fact, if Iraq had actually had something like a nuke, we probably wouldn't have invaded. The UN weapons inspections basically served to prove that Iraq was an easy target for takeover.
I think the idea was to find evidence of chemical or radiological weapons, rather than "nukes". There are conflicting sources about that.

Rather than faked I think it was premature intelligence and the whole process was hastily worked out.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:18 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think the idea was to find evidence of chemical or radiological weapons, rather than "nukes". There are conflicting sources about that.

Rather than faked I think it was premature intelligence and the whole process was hastily worked out.
Eh.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 04:09 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yes, and Ross Perot was the coup de grace. He was the last of the old Republican presidents. He had more in common with Ike than Reagan.
Yes, there's little doubt, without Perot running, George H. W. Bush would have been reelected in '92. Clinton defeated Bush by 6% points: Perot got 19% of the vote. The only variable is which states would have gone to Bush.

Regardless of some of the false information used to rally public support for the U.S. leading Coalition forces in pushing Iraq out of Kuwait, the fact remains, the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait was a gross violation of International law. As George H.W. Bush said at the time, it could not be allowed to stand.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 04:18 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think the idea was to find evidence of chemical or radiological weapons, rather than "nukes". There are conflicting sources about that.

Rather than faked I think it was premature intelligence and the whole process was hastily worked out.


Do you really have no clue of the outright lies and deceits that went into getting the American and British public to accept invading Iraq? They were out in the open then if you looked and really really out in the open a few years after the war started.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 04:21 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
True! Clueless of me to forget.
And Gitmo, forgot to mention getting around human rights laws by special rendition and Gitmo.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 04:31 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
...outright lies and deceits that went into getting the American and British public to accept invading Iraq?...
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And Gitmo, forgot to mention getting around human rights laws by special rendition and Gitmo.
Why are you insisting on derailing a thread about the passing of George H.W. Bush into a rant about his son's handling of the Iraqi invasion that took place ten years after the senior Bush left office? Isn't it pretty clear the father did not support the war and his former advisers urged George W. Bush not to do it. I don't get it.
Quote:
Bush’s attitude toward his son’s war is not a total surprise. Some of his closest advisors had already been openly critical of it. Brent Scowcroft, national security advisor from 1989 to 1993 and close confidante to the elder Bush, penned a blistering August 2002 op-ed in the Wall Street Journal warning that “any campaign against Iraq, whatever the strategy, cost, and risks is certain to divert us for some indefinite period from our war on terrorism.” Link
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Old 2nd December 2018, 04:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Do you really have no clue of the outright lies and deceits that went into getting the American and British public to accept invading Iraq? They were out in the open then if you looked and really really out in the open a few years after the war started.
This was when I knew for sure it was based on actual intentional lies:

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/17/w...t-weapons.html
Quote:
But on Sunday, Mr. Powell argued that the C.I.A. itself was misled, and that in turn he was, too. ''Unfortunately, that multiple sourcing over time has turned out not to be accurate,'' Mr. Powell said, going farther than he did on April 2 when he conceded that the intelligence was not ''that solid.''

On Sunday, Mr. Powell hinted at widespread reports of fabrications by an engineer who provided much of the most critical information about the labs. Intelligence officials have since found that the engineer was linked to the Iraqi National Congress, an exile group that was pressing President Bush to unseat Mr. Hussein.

''It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and in some cases, deliberately misleading,'' Mr. Powell said in the interview, broadcast from Jordan. ''And for that, I am disappointed and I regret it.''
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Old 2nd December 2018, 05:45 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Why are you insisting on derailing a thread about the passing of George H.W. Bush into a rant about his son's handling of the Iraqi invasion that took place ten years after the senior Bush left office? Isn't it pretty clear the father did not support the war and his former advisers urged George W. Bush not to do it. I don't get it.
I didn't start the derail. Try further upthread.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:47 AM   #68
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Meh, all Bushes were the same.

At least to some people.

I was puzzled there trying to figure out how Gitmo worked into the first Gulf war. Or the whole incubator babies thing worked in with WMD. Lots of confusion in this thread.

Bush, isn't he they guy that tried but failed to rescue the hostages in Iran? Or was that Ford? Maybe it was Nell Carter.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 03:47 AM   #69
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I look forward to Will Smith kicking the bucket so I can read a whole thread about how badly Jaden Smith sucked in the Karate Kid remake.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:01 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I look forward to Will Smith kicking the bucket so I can read a whole thread about how badly Jaden Smith sucked in the Karate Kid remake.
If I could use this thread to bash Jaden Smith, I would.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:44 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If I could use this thread to bash Jaden Smith, I would.
You just did
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:30 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Breaking News on MSNBC

Huffpost link

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b080eddf568e59

The last WW2 serviceman to serve as POTUS
The last good Republican president. RIP.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:36 AM   #73
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This photo made me sad.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:01 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Meh, all Bushes were the same.

At least to some people.

I was puzzled there trying to figure out how Gitmo worked into the first Gulf war. Or the whole incubator babies thing worked in with WMD. Lots of confusion in this thread.

Bush, isn't he they guy that tried but failed to rescue the hostages in Iran? Or was that Ford? Maybe it was Nell Carter.
I don't think anyone in this thread is mixing up W and HW. There just does happen to be some overlap in the "is a war criminal" venn diagram department.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:55 AM   #75
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When it comes to Bush Sr., I have nothing nice to say unless "he was better than _____" counts. Frankly, I don't think it does. He was someone that made the world a worse place to live in, someone that welcomed racist laws and political tactics, someone that laughed while people died of AIDS, someone that made immoral military decisions. I think any good he did was minimal and would have been done by virtually any President, and therefore does nothing to counteract the enormous harm. He was a bad guy, and while I wouldn't say this to his friends or family out of a general sense of decency I don't mind saying here on this forum that it's not sad that he's dead. The only reason his passing didn't actually make the world a *better* place is because he wasn't particularly relevant by the time he died.

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's easy to paint yourself into a corner where all POTUSes must be considered as not decent people, if we apply standards fairly.
Hand me the paint. Honestly most POTUSes are horrible, horrible people. There may be some exceptions, seems like Carter is decent but my knowledge of him is limited. Some are still preferable to others; I'd do almost anything to get another term from Obama despite happily agreeing that he is also a terrible person and a murderer.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:07 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This one made me smile.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:35 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
When it comes to Bush Sr., I have nothing nice to say unless "he was better than _____" counts. Frankly, I don't think it does. He was someone that made the world a worse place to live in, someone that welcomed racist laws and political tactics, someone that laughed while people died of AIDS, someone that made immoral military decisions. I think any good he did was minimal and would have been done by virtually any President, and therefore does nothing to counteract the enormous harm. He was a bad guy, and while I wouldn't say this to his friends or family out of a general sense of decency I don't mind saying here on this forum that it's not sad that he's dead. The only reason his passing didn't actually make the world a *better* place is because he wasn't particularly relevant by the time he died.



Hand me the paint. Honestly most POTUSes are horrible, horrible people. There may be some exceptions, seems like Carter is decent but my knowledge of him is limited. Some are still preferable to others; I'd do almost anything to get another term from Obama despite happily agreeing that he is also a terrible person and a murderer.
The underlined, evidence please?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't think anyone in this thread is mixing up W and HW. There just does happen to be some overlap in the "is a war criminal" venn diagram department.
That is not clear to me from the discussion above. As far as I am aware, HW had nothing substantial to do with setting up the camp in Gitmo. Nor am I aware of any war crimes he could be accused of with regards to the first gulf war. The invasion of Panama though, is a different story - which hasn't even been brought up.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:49 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I never voted for George H.W. Bush but I respected him. I thought he did an excellent job in getting Iraq out of Kuwait. And best of all, he knew when to call off the dogs which, as a Vietnam vet, really impressed me. Bush, Sr. knew an invasion and regime change could be done relatively easily. It was the post-invasion environment that worried him, the price that would have to be paid. And his son proved him right.

I am still surprised he was voted out of office, that he failed to win a second term. And again, I didn't vote for him. But the lousy economy of the early 1990s did him in. Remember, "It's the economy, stupid."
The economy didn't help. But the candidacy of H. Ross Perot was what really finished him off, which I strongly suspect was exactly what it was intended to do.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:58 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yeah, that comment kind of amused me as well. GWB may have had his flaws especially in his youth (unlike me, who was perfect in every way), but he genuinely seems to be a nice guy, loving father and husband. And I will 100% say that Obama strikes me the same way, and that Trump falls more than a little short on gentlemanly qualities (much like Clinton).
IMO, Clinton, despite moral failings in his personal life, was at least a competent president. I can't remotely say the same for Trump.
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