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#1 | ||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,090
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Mueller Investigation pt4
This article breaks down the alleged draft Corsi Statement of Offence and how it provides more evidence of collusion
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,090
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#3 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
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#4 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,946
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#5 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,885
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Did you fully understand what a perjury trap is from your first link?
Quote:
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It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell |
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#6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 28,930
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Rubs temples vigorously.
Is there some basis to believe that people using that phrase were using the narrow legal meaning that he gave, as opposed to THIS ONE: “Colloquially, people use "perjury trap" to refer not just to grand jury subpoenas, but any time that the government seeks to question a witness in hopes that they will be able to prosecute the witness for lying -- not just for perjury, but for obstruction or lying to the feds.” Answer, no, there is absolutely no basis at all. He and we are using the latter definition, please see to it that you do so as well. |
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#7 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#8 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,090
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#9 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#10 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,885
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I was using the definition in one of the links you provided. But the colloquial definition is hopelessly muddled, it obfuscates whether the prosecutor has legitimate reasons to question a witness. To wit:
A prosecutor may have no legitimate reason to question a witness, and in that case, the perjury trap is improper because of the lack of legitimate reasons to question the witness from the beginning. A prosecutor may have legitimate reasons for questioning a witness, and it won't matter what the prosecutor hopes for, separate from actual improper behavior that might be driven by the hope. If there's no improper behavior, it doesn't matter what the prosecutor hopes for. What questions that Mueller asked Trump were improper? |
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It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell |
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#11 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
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You're free to think that someone who has acted against the interest of their client as Giuliani has1 is a good lawyer, should you so choose. You are, after all, the forum's legal expert who knows the law better than every lawyer who ever lived.
1 Like, for example, revealing the existence of a "pre-meeting" to discuss strategy before the infamous Trump Tower meeting, or admitting that Trump reimbursed Cohen for the hush payment to Stormy Daniels. |
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#13 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,885
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It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell |
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#14 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#15 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#16 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#17 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#18 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,885
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And I explained some things to you, too. If you think that "ain't the big dog's problem," then you have no interest in explaining your perspective, which is called actual communication.
If you'd like to explain your view on the issues I raised, I'm all ears. ETA: What you offered was not an explanation. |
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It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell |
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#19 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
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It is an explanation, a very clear one. Tell me what part of “You are conflating the original narrow definition, with the broader definition which has broadened and evolved to cover situations like 18 U.S.C. § 1001” you are hiving trouble understanding.
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#20 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,885
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__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell |
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#21 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 28,930
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lets start again, this the definition:
"Colloquially, people use "perjury trap" to refer not just to grand jury subpoenas, but any time that the government seeks to question a witness in hopes that they will be able to prosecute the witness for lying -- not just for perjury, but for obstruction or lying to the feds." Now, and this is important, this does not suggest that there may be other reasons to question the witness. However here we are focusing on the specific issue raised above. This is particularly so where they ask you questions that they already know the answer to! Do you follow? |
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#22 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2009
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FBI: "Mr. President, were you aware of a meeting between Michael Cohen and <insert Russian dude's name here> at Trump Tower on <insert date here>?"
The potential answers are: a) yes b) no c) refuse to answer/don't recall If Trump did know about it and ... he answers yes, then there's no risk of perjury. he answers no then there's a risk of perjury. He can also refuse to answer. So what's the trap part? |
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#23 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#24 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
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That is not the way the trap is set, which should be obvious.
A typical way is that they ask you questions about information they already have. When is the last time you met with x to discuss y? They know it is June. You forget and say April. You have just violated 18 usc 1001. |
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#25 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
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This is such a crock of crap. There is no perjury trap as far as Trump is concerned. It's not like they are coercing some 18 year old kid without legal counsel who doesn't know his rights to lie. No, this is POTUS, armed with a battalion of high priced attorneys, and Rudy.
All Trump has to do is tell the God damn truth. But as Shakespeare said 'aye, there's the rub'. Trump cannot tell the truth. Not just because telling the truth is against his nature, but because it would expose Trump as the traitor and criminal we all know him to be. So the President, the Big Dog and the other sycophants cry 'perjury trap' as if an honest investigation of the facts is wrong. |
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“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
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#26 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,885
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Yes, and we can move on from here (but I still don’t see the conflation, nor did you spell it out.)
But, moving on, let’s clarify the perjury trap situation even more. Consider two scenarios: in one, x-1 witnessness all agree on a fact, where x = the minimum number of witnesses needed to confirm that fact. Asking Individual One about that fact is not a perjury trap, right? In the other scenario, x witnesses all testify to a fact. Asking Individual One about that fact *is* a perjury trap, right? But what if you ask x*2 witnesses and they are evenly divided? Doesn’t that argue for asking everyone everything (assuming they all are knowledgeable about the fact in question) and let the chips fall where they may? |
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It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell |
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#27 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#28 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#29 |
Penultimate Amazing
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“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
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#30 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#31 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman has displayed what he says are two emails from President Donald Trump's former personal lawyer asking for help getting the Trump Tower Moscow project off the ground.
https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...he-latest.html |
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#32 |
Penultimate Amazing
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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#33 |
Mostly harmless
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#34 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#35 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"To the best of my recollection it was in April"
Where's the trap? |
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#36 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#37 |
Illuminator
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#38 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#39 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#40 |
Great minds think...
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It's your opinion that the FBI are that hard nosed. Trump and his cretins have changed their government documentation about meetings with the Russians several times and have faced absolutely zero penalties.
Post something solid that supports your position or just drop it. |
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"All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination."--Barbara Grizzuti Harrison “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
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