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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 3rd December 2018, 04:29 PM   #241
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So witness tampering is protected speech?
The number of major problems with that sentence are amazing!

Rule of so, switching burden, loaded question, begging the question, and that is just off the top of my head!

Oh well, none of those in the post I was replying to were remotely witness tampering.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 04:43 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
At this point, I don't remember the details of the Comey firing, and not really interested in going back on that detour in this thread.
I wasn't participating in the beginning of the thread, sorry if the Comey firing is a re-run.

But, the Comey firing is, perhaps, the central issue in any possible application of the law against impeding or influencing the investigation, so perhaps I can be forgiven for re-working old ground.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The other things are not only not overt acts, I would think one would have a real first amendment problem trying to criminalize bitching about the fuzz.
Not sure how you can say the other things are not overt acts when I didn't describe them, and specifically included activities as well as conversations. And, not all of the conversations in the press were merely bitching about the fuzz.

Furthermore, denials of wrongdoing are perfectly fine, but any president who comments negatively on an investigation into that president's possible illegal behavior should be viewed with great suspicion.

Remember, Trump doesn't know if the investigation will exonerate him or not. If we assume for the sake of argument that Trump is innocent, that gives him little rationale for complaining about the investigation because investigations can be proper when people are innocent as well as when they are guilty.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:06 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Are you asserting that Trump's tweet uses "intimidation or threatens" the witness?

Wow, I don't see that at all, but feel free to make your case!
Exactly! What did Trump tweet today? That Cohen should go to prison and serve the entire sentence. And at the same time Trump is dangling a pardon to Manafort. Never mind that Manafort was convicted of far more serious crimes including multiple counts of Tax evasion and Bank Fraud.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:11 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It's amazing given how poorly Individual One treated him, it took this long for him to turn.
That Trump didn't treat Cohen sweetly and tenderly is one of Trump's biggest mistake. That he let Cohen dangle in the wind was monumentally stupid.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:29 PM   #245
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Actually, never mind. Nothing good will come of it, and it'll just waste everybody's time.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:37 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Precisely. If we consider one tweet or one statement or one action by itself, then obstruction of justice or witness tampering would not be provable. But when you line up dozens, probably hundreds of these statements and tweets and actions then it becomes ridiculous or dishonest to think otherwise.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:11 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Precisely. If we consider one tweet or one statement or one action by itself, then obstruction of justice or witness tampering would not be provable. But when you line up dozens, probably hundreds of these statements and tweets and actions then it becomes ridiculous or dishonest to think otherwise.

Although publicly stating that he fired Comey because Comey refused to stop the Russia investigation is pretty much an admission to obstruction of justice right there, on its own.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:07 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Although publicly stating that he fired Comey because Comey refused to stop the Russia investigation is pretty much an admission to obstruction of justice right there, on its own.
Yes. I agree. But thats just one count. It's more than arguable that Trump is guilty of dozens of counts of obstructing justice and witness tampering as our friend Rachel pointed out with her comparison to Nixon.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:19 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That Trump didn't treat Cohen sweetly and tenderly is one of Trump's biggest mistake. That he let Cohen dangle in the wind was monumentally stupid.
Trump is unable to help himself. That's how his pathologic narcissism manifests itself.

He would have had to kiss up to Cohen earlier. He's mentally incapable. He expects people beneath him to worship him without Trump having to acknowledge anything back.

This is not hyperbole, Trump simply cannot make such gestures. If Cohen had stood up to Mueller first, things could be different.

When it comes to those he considers his peers, Putin, Prince whatshisname, probably Xi, he acts accordingly. But other world leaders, they don't rank, expecially Merkel because of Trump's condescension to every female. May probably defers to Trump enough, but you know Merkel doesn't.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:39 PM   #250
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Looks like we'll be getting quite a bit more info this week:

Quote:
Special counsel Robert Mueller's team is poised to make public a sentencing memo about former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort by Friday, special counsel spokesman Peter Carr told Yahoo News on Monday.

Mueller is also set to release memos about former Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn and Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen this week, which are all likely to provide greater insight into the inner workings of the special counsel's probe into possible ties between Russia and the Trump presidential campaign.
Linky.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:23 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Looks like we'll be getting quite a bit more info this week:
Quote:
Special counsel Robert Mueller's team is poised to make public a sentencing memo about former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort by Friday, special counsel spokesman Peter Carr told Yahoo News on Monday.

Mueller is also set to release memos about former Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn and Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen this week, which are all likely to provide greater insight into the inner workings of the special counsel's probe into possible ties between Russia and the Trump presidential campaign.
Linky.
They were talking about this on the news shows and it was speculated that Mueller is laying a lot out there in the courts to prevent the Trump Administration from making Mueller's report classified and keeping it from becoming public. By detailing a lot of it in the sentencing memos, he gets to make much of it public.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:43 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The questions are of course, who the heck is the guy who was quoted, and who gives a ding dong damn about what he says anyhow?
You do have the basic requirement of clicking on the ******* link, which of course answers both of those questions. Don't pass your laziness off as other people being incompetent.

Again, just because you don't care doesn't mean that the tweet isn't both A) relevant to the conversation at hand and B) an educated opinion from a lawyer that can be added to the collection of opinions from lawyers on the topic.

Personifies Danth's Law, yet can't do research.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:50 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You do have the basic requirement of clicking on the ******* link, which of course answers both of those questions. Don't pass your laziness off as other people being incompetent.

Again, just because you don't care doesn't mean that the tweet isn't both A) relevant to the conversation at hand and B) an educated opinion from a lawyer that can be added to the collection of opinions from lawyers on the topic.

Personifies Danth's Law, yet can't do research.
Lol. When I ask who this guy is and why we should care what he says, our skeptical correspondent declares that he is a lawyer on Twitter.

And then declares that I can’t do research.

Lol! Say, where does this guy practice law, for how long, and how do we know he is not a dog?



Hilarious!
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:11 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Lol. When I ask who this guy is and why we should care what he says, our skeptical correspondent declares that he is a lawyer on Twitter.

And then declares that I can’t do research.

Lol! Say, where does this guy practice law, for how long, and how do we know he is not a dog?



Hilarious!
Don't. Don't care what he says. No one is asking you to, this thread doesn't revolve around you. I found out who he was and where he worked pretty quick. I've had to do the same for multiple posts around here. Fairly common.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:17 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump is unable to help himself. That's how his pathologic narcissism manifests itself.

He would have had to kiss up to Cohen earlier. He's mentally incapable. He expects people beneath him to worship him without Trump having to acknowledge anything back.

This is not hyperbole, Trump simply cannot make such gestures. If Cohen had stood up to Mueller first, things could be different.

When it comes to those he considers his peers, Putin, Prince whatshisname, probably Xi, he acts accordingly. But other world leaders, they don't rank, expecially Merkel because of Trump's condescension to every female. May probably defers to Trump enough, but you know Merkel doesn't.
We should go easy on him then, because of his handicap. {/BtC}
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:23 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Don't. Don't care what he says. No one is asking you to, this thread doesn't revolve around you. I found out who he was and where he worked pretty quick. I've had to do the same for multiple posts around here. Fairly common.
Hmmm, rather than answer the questions, you said that the basic requirement was click on the link, which I did (of course) which was a link to a single tweet...

Hmmm, it would appear that is not what one had to do...

Hmmm, I gotta ask, were you lying in the first post, the second, or both?

Tick tock
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Old 4th December 2018, 08:00 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hmmm, rather than answer the questions, you said that the basic requirement was click on the link, which I did (of course) which was a link to a single tweet...

Hmmm, it would appear that is not what one had to do...

Hmmm, I gotta ask, were you lying in the first post, the second, or both?

Tick tock
They were questions that didn't require answering. How did we know he wasn't a dog? He can type, and has a twitter account. You really need that answered? Is this what you're crying about? That people aren't commenting with a full ******* bio of the person their linking? Ok. Sweet point bro. Got any new snark for today?

I see that we're going to get a ton of new information with the prison sentences of Trumps cronies. Care to comment on that? How are you going to handwave those convictions away? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old 4th December 2018, 08:10 AM   #258
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I'm with TBD on this. I'm not a fan of naked links.

I generally expect a link to be accompanied by a blurb that gives me a hint as to why I should click, and a quote that supports the poster's point. The quote identifies the writer. If it's a random person on the internet whose name has no significance, I'm a-ok with quote=RandomPersonOnTheInternet or whatever.

On top of which, when I click Twitter links, I frequently find myself confused as to what I'm supposed to be looking at, and who said what.
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Old 4th December 2018, 08:16 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm with TBD on this. I'm not a fan of naked links.

I generally expect a link to be accompanied by a blurb that gives me a hint as to why I should click, and a quote that supports the poster's point. The quote identifies the writer. If it's a random person on the internet whose name has no significance, I'm a-ok with quote=RandomPersonOnTheInternet or whatever.

On top of which, when I click Twitter links, I frequently find myself confused as to what I'm supposed to be looking at, and who said what.
A link with the individuals name and the word "law" that specifically states he's had multiple clients that have been charged with a crime for less than what the president does, needs more clarification? That, for some reason, isn't explicitly clear enough as to it's intent and who is writing it?

LoL ok, I give.
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Old 4th December 2018, 08:23 AM   #260
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There's a Simpson's episode where Chief Wiggum comes around to grill the mob guys about a hijacked truck of cigarettes. The mob boss goes "what's a truck?"

That's about the level of willfull ignorance on display when supposedly intelligent people spend half the discussion acting like their IQ is lower than their age.

ETA: Especially the ones who repeatedly insist they are god's gift to legal knowledge in personified form here to edify us.

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Old 4th December 2018, 08:34 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
There's a Simpson's episode where Chief Wiggum comes around to grill the mob guys about a hijacked truck of cigarettes. The mob boss goes "what's a truck?"

That's about the level of willfull ignorance on display when supposedly intelligent people spend half the discussion acting like their IQ is lower than their age.
Amen, I mean who hasn't heard of the meme that on the internet no one knows you are a dog?
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:12 AM   #262
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The important thing is that the conversation get redirected to the manner in which this expert's opinion is presented and not the opinion itself, which is that Trump is outright breaking the law here and he'd already be in jail if he weren't the president.
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:20 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The important thing is that the conversation get redirected to the manner in which this expert's opinion is presented and not the opinion itself, which is that Trump is outright breaking the law here and he'd already be in jail if he weren't the president.
which "expert" are you talking about??
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:24 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
which "expert" are you talking about??
At this point it would be easier to find "experts" who don't hold that position.
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:31 AM   #265
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Seth Abramson thread on the various things Flynn's sentencing memo expected today may and may not mean
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:31 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
At this point it would be easier to find "experts" who don't hold that position.
A few years back in order to point of the absurdity of acting as if creationist finding a handful of scientist who agree with them meant it anything Project Steve was started that showed that more just scientist named Steve supported evolution than scientist period rejected it.

You could probably do a Project Steve on legal experts just named Steven who thing Trump has done something (notworthably) illegal versus all legal experts who don't.
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:38 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A few years back in order to point of the absurdity of acting as if creationist finding a handful of scientist who agree with them meant it anything Project Steve was started that showed that more just scientist named Steve supported evolution than scientist period rejected it.

You could probably do a Project Steve on legal experts just named Steven who thing Trump has done something (notworthably) illegal versus all legal experts who don't.
No, it would need to be project Donald, I think.

Just for the funny
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:41 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Have you read Flynn's sentencing memo?
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:47 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Have you read Flynn's sentencing memo?
Not that this is relevant to the post you've quoted, but it hasn't been released yet.
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:50 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Not that this is relevant to the post you've quoted, but it hasn't been released yet.
well, it is really hard to guess what one should find relevant given that it is just a substance free link to a twitter thread about a report that HAS NOT BEEN RELEASED yet and what it means or may not mean,
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:51 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well, it is really hard to guess what one should find relevant given that it is just a substance free link to a twitter thread about a report that HAS NOT BEEN RELEASED yet and what it means or may not mean,
Okay. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:52 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Okay. Thanks for sharing.
No problemo!
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:55 AM   #273
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It is all just an interpretive dream unfolding before us. Nothing really means anything. No informed speculation exists or can exist, all exercises such are but folly...
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Old 4th December 2018, 09:59 AM   #274
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As for actual facts, recall that in April the Committee on Intelligence released a report stating that "Among the 44 findings in the report was a line stating that 'Federal Bureau of Investigation agents did not detect any deception during Flynn's interview.'”

As such, when considering the release of the Flynn sentencing report today, ask yourself about this finding by the House.

Keep in mind also when considering the Report that there is evidence that actual scumbos McCabe and Strzok falsified the 304s for the Flynn interview.

Flynn pardon is very cool and very legal.
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Very legal and very cool!

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Old 4th December 2018, 10:09 AM   #275
plague311
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
As for actual facts, recall that in April the Committee on Intelligence released a report stating that "Among the 44 findings in the report was a line stating that 'Federal Bureau of Investigation agents did not detect any deception during Flynn's interview.'”

As such, when considering the release of the Flynn sentencing report today, ask yourself about this finding by the House.

Keep in mind also when considering the Report that there is evidence that actual scumbos McCabe and Strzok falsified the 304s for the Flynn interview.

Flynn pardon is very cool and very legal.
LoL shocking that you support a pardon.

Also, no one should believe anything from the House. Everything they did was either half-assed or lied about by Nunez. It should all be dismissed until it can be done again with legitimacy. Even invoking it as part of an argument is evidence that you have absolutely nothing to support an already dying narrative that anyone charged by Mueller didn't deserve what they have coming to them.
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:17 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
As for actual facts, recall that in April the Committee on Intelligence...
You mean the committee that is both headed by a republican, and which contains a majority of republicans, who just happen to be members of the same party as Trump.

That's a good start...

Quote:
...released a report stating that "Among the 44 findings in the report was a line stating that 'Federal Bureau of Investigation agents did not detect any deception during Flynn's interview.'”
Uhhh... so?

Most obvious response to this is that Flynn was just good at lying. That doesn't necessarily mean that 1) he was actually telling the truth, and 2) that there isn't evidence that he was lying outside of things like body language.

From: https://thehill.com/policy/national-...two-agents-who
The report notes that Comey testified that “the agents … discerned no physical indications of deception. They didn’t see any change in posture, in tone, in inflection, in eye contact. They saw nothing that indicated to them that he knew he was lying to them.” McCabe also then confirmed this to the Intelligence Committee, according to the report, but added that they’d found Flynn’s statements were “inconsistent” with what they had understood to be his conversations with Kislyak.
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:17 AM   #277
I Am The Scum
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Flynn pardon
Soft on crime
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:21 AM   #278
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Soft on crime
according the FBI agent who actually interviewed him, there was no crime.

Until McCabe and that other jackal got involved and doctored the 304's.

Justice for Flynn!

/ And given that the estimated sentencing range is zero to six months, I trust that our hero Mueller is not going to make this a total dog and pony show.
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:23 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
according the FBI agent who actually interviewed him, there was no crime.

Until McCabe and that other jackal got involved and doctored the 304's.

Justice for Flynn!
Wow, time till first lie...first sentence. That's not what the FBI agent said at all unless you cherry pick, which you've proven to do. They never said Flynn committed no crime. In fact, Flynn didn't even say Flynn didn't commit a crime LoL.
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Last edited by plague311; 4th December 2018 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 4th December 2018, 10:27 AM   #280
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
according the FBI agent who actually interviewed him, there was no crime.
Wrong.

The agents who interviewed him didn't say there was no crime. They said they saw no physical signs he was lying (e.g. eye contact, posture, vocal tone). That doesn't necessarily mean "no crime". It could also mean "He is very good at lying".

The FBI agents that had interviewed Flynn were not commenting on other evidence that had been gathered, only on Flynn's body language.
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