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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Wisconsin politics

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Old 5th December 2018, 03:56 PM   #41
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
You're just disingenuously side-stepping the actual issue being a Repugnican.
FTFY
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Old 5th December 2018, 04:05 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The people don't vote for bills or for the specific powers in question. They voted for the legislature, including the one which just passed the bills in question.



How can it be stealing that power when the new legislature can just take it all back?
So let me understand this correctly

1. The people of Wisconsin voted 56% - 44% in favour of Democrats
2. The people of Wisconsin voted in a Democratic Governor
3. With the gerrymandering carried out by Republicans, the people, of Wisconsin have ended up with a Republican legislature 64% - 36%
4. The current Republican legislature is furiously passing Laws to remove or limit the powers of the Governor and the SAG.

And you think is just fine?

Would you still think that it was just fine if the parties were swapped around?

(You know don't bother answering that last question. I don't expect an honest answer anyway)
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- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920

Last edited by smartcooky; 5th December 2018 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 5th December 2018, 04:22 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So close, and yet so far.

If we were debating the legislature about why they did this, then yes, the onus would be on them to justify their vote. But they aren't here. They aren't part of this discussion. So no onus can be placed on them to explain anything to us.

And a positive claim HAS been made that what the legislature did was not simply motivated by partisan interests (I have no doubt about that), but also somehow objectively wrong. That positive claim should have support. It doesn't, not really.



Because, get this, the people being critical of it aren't actually examining the issue.
Yes they are. Your straw man is a lie. Just because you refuse to acknowledge those critical points (and cut them out of your quoting of them), does not mean they are not doing so.

Your attacks are false or irrelevant.
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Old 5th December 2018, 05:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So let me understand this correctly

1. The people of Wisconsin voted 56% - 44% in favour of Democrats
2. The people of Wisconsin voted in a Democratic Governor
3. With the gerrymandering carried out by Republicans, the people, of Wisconsin have ended up with a Republican legislature 64% - 36%
4. The current Republican legislature is furiously passing Laws to remove or limit the powers of the Governor and the SAG.

And you think is just fine?

Would you still think that it was just fine if the parties were swapped around?

(You know don't bother answering that last question. I don't expect an honest answer anyway)
I havenít been given a reason to think it isnít fine. Maybe there is a reason, but the Democrats being thwarted in their quest for power isnít one for me. And Iíd be fine if the parties were reversed, because Iíve been saying for a long time now that executive powers have grown too large. I had hoped Trump might wake liberals up to that fact, but they still seem oblivious.
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Old 5th December 2018, 05:45 PM   #45
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I haven’t been given a reason to think it isn’t fine.
Because the power to govern derives directly from the consent of the governed.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 5th December 2018 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Wandering 'from' removed.
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Old 5th December 2018, 06:35 PM   #46
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No matter how you try and spin it, this was a power grab by the Republicans in an effort to protect their legislation from the incoming Dem governor and AG. No explanations were given as to why these powers shouldn't remain where they have been. As the legislature remains in the hands of the Republicans, this won't be easily reversed. It was a below the belt underhanded move and anyone with any integrity sees it as such.
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Old 5th December 2018, 06:54 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I havenít been given a reason to think it isnít fine. Maybe there is a reason, but the Democrats being thwarted in their quest for power isnít one for me. And Iíd be fine if the parties were reversed, because Iíve been saying for a long time now that executive powers have grown too large. I had hoped Trump might wake liberals up to that fact, but they still seem oblivious.
First, it's quite foolish to conclude the GOP making power moves that go against democracy means smaller government. That's one of the biggest scams the GOP pulls off. The other one is the false pretense of economic conservatism.

Rich people getting the regulations to favor their ability to pollute and the cleanup cost to fall to our taxes is a glaring example.

Second, so democracy is not a reason to object to these kinds of maneuvers?


"First they came for the democrats..." comes to mind.
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Old 5th December 2018, 07:07 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
First, it's quite foolish to conclude the GOP making power moves that go against democracy means smaller government.
I didnít say smaller government. Do pay attention.
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Old 5th December 2018, 08:59 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didnít say smaller government. Do pay attention.
"executive powers have grown too large"

Same statement applies to this as well. You are talking about the GOP giving more powers to the POTUS than anytime in history except maybe during world wars. And you believe the GOP is the Party that is going to cut back on exec powers?

Seriously?
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Old 5th December 2018, 09:19 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Lame-duck partisan antics have been around as long as this country has existed, but this move is of an unprecedented magnitude. Well, maybe not unprecedented. Things got pretty nasty right before the Civil War. I wouldn't exactly call that a good model of government to follow.

Norms are important for the continued proper functioning of our government. They aren't written into law, but rather rely on good faith of the elected legislature. The peaceful, smooth transition of power between incumbent and newly elected is one such norm. Some amount of gamesmanship has always existed, but the norm was respected.

The gallop of the Republicans to dump these norms for short term partisan gain is extremely dangerous. They are knocking the legs out from under the table, and it will not be so easy to repair as it was to destroy.

That is a perfectly sensible statement.


However, just like Greshams law, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law


Bad politics drives out good politics.
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Old 5th December 2018, 09:32 PM   #51
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What constitutional powers of the governor is the legislature attempting to remove?
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Old 5th December 2018, 09:50 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I havenít been given a reason to think it isnít fine. Maybe there is a reason, but the Democrats being thwarted in their quest for power isnít one for me.
Its not the Democrats, ITS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF WISCONSIN that has been thwarted. You have to be Blind Freddy to fail to understand that gerrymandering the boundaries of electorates in order to return a Legislature that runs directly against what the people voted for is simply political corruption.

Worse yet, while the people of Wisconsin voted in a Democratic Governor, the the corrupt politicians in the current Republican legislature are hurrying to de-power him, and invest that power in themselves. I cannot conceive of a world where this behaviour, i.e. the deliberate and purposeful subversion of the will of the people, would be acceptable - except perhaps in the worst TPLACs and the Banana Republics of Central America.

The Wisconsin example is the best argument yet for proportional representation.
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Old 5th December 2018, 10:12 PM   #53
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Lawmakers need to internalize the "Veil of Ignorance" concept: a lot of Reoublican policies can only be explained with the assumption that it would only ever hurt "the other".
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Old 5th December 2018, 10:28 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
"executive powers have grown too large"

Same statement applies to this as well. You are talking about the GOP giving more powers to the POTUS than anytime in history except maybe during world wars. And you believe the GOP is the Party that is going to cut back on exec powers?

Seriously?
I didn't say anything about the GOP cutting back the president's powers. You just can't help making **** up, can you?
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Old 5th December 2018, 11:40 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didn't say anything about the GOP cutting back the president's powers. You just can't help making **** up, can you?
Oh puhleese! Now you are going to pretend you were only talking about one state governor?

I'm sorry. I guess it's embarrassing to believe the GOP practices what they advertise to their customers.
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:22 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh puhleese! Now you are going to pretend you were only talking about one state governor?
You canít get anything right, can you? No, Iím not going to pretend that. But nor did I ever claim that the GOP was generally doing what I want them to do in constraining executive power. You simply made that **** up, because you canít conceive of anyone having a position other than your invented caricature.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:18 AM   #57
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So Ziggurat, you don't think the GOP generally are doing what you want them to do. You clearly don't think the Dems will. I hope you are not so confused as to think the current President will. So who may do this for you? I hope you aren't trying to make the argument that this is what the GOP legislature in Wisconsin is doing! It is clear that they are trying to move power from one part of the government to another but there is no evidence this will lead to power better expressing the wishes of the people. Indeed as has been pointed out to you already it will very expressly deny the workings of the will of the people. A legislature where the votes of the people have been ignored through gerrymandering will take powers away from two individuals who secured a majority of those who voted in recent elections. Could we persuade you to say that this is a bad thing in what is supposed to be a democracy, or at least a democratic republic.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:52 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
So Ziggurat, you don't think the GOP generally are doing what you want them to do. You clearly don't think the Dems will. I hope you are not so confused as to think the current President will. So who may do this for you? I hope you aren't trying to make the argument that this is what the GOP legislature in Wisconsin is doing!
It is what they have done, to a limited degree. They aren't motivated by my reasoning, but oh well.

Quote:
It is clear that they are trying to move power from one part of the government to another but there is no evidence this will lead to power better expressing the wishes of the people.
That's not always a minus. There's a reason to prefer a constitutional republic over a direct democracy.
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:25 AM   #59
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Hey friends, come over to my house and let's play a friendly game of Monopoly.

<game proceeds>

Oh crap, I just landed on Park Place and there's a Trump Tower hotel. No problem, my house, my rules, you owe me $200, do not pass Go.

Those friends are unlikely to play board games with me anymore.

If I lived in Wisconsin, I would feel that my government stopped playing by the rules. I would feel cheated. I would feel that an unspoken contract had been broken. I would no longer feel obligated to play by the rules (other than my own personal ethics, and desire not to be incarcerated). If I felt I could get away with something, I would get away with something.

If I'm an outlier, so what. If I'm not an outlier, this is one reason why this sort of bare-naked power grab is corrosive to democracy.
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Old 6th December 2018, 10:09 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
<unnecessary analogy snipped>

If I lived in Wisconsin, I would feel that my government stopped playing by the rules. I would feel cheated. I would feel that an unspoken contract had been broken. I would no longer feel obligated to play by the rules (other than my own personal ethics, and desire not to be incarcerated). If I felt I could get away with something, I would get away with something.
Only if you lived in Wisconsin, and were ignorant of the rules, would you feel that way.

It's always been a rule that the WI legislature could delegate some of its own powers to the governor. It's always been a rule that the legislature could rescind that delegation and keep its powers for itself. It's entirely unsurprising that a legislature dominated by one party would be unwilling to delegate any of its power to a governor from the other party. It's entirely within the rules for them to adjust the assignment of their powers according to such circumstances.

There's also something undemocratic about the legislature delegating its power to the governor. When the legislature acts, it must first debate and vote and agree. This process more closely hews to the principles of democratic representation, than letting the executive act at will, without having to debate or gain consensus. It's a lazy or corrupt legislature that lets the executive branch do the legislature's job.

This is a case of (the wrong) people doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. But it's still the right thing to do. And it's well within the rules.

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Old 6th December 2018, 10:30 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is a case of (the wrong) people doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. But it's still the right thing to do. And it's well within the rules.
Convenient how things are so black and white for you when itís Republicans doing things like this ďwithin the rulesĒ.

I guess we only slip into the hand-wringing of the gray area when Democrats have power:
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm reeeaally uncomfortable with the idea of anyone using Congressional investigative authority for partisan advantage in an election.

Investigating the President to determine if he's guilty of misdeeds that merit removal from office is fine, for me. Even though we know that any such exercise is going to be unavoidably partisan.

Investigating the President simply to make him seem look bad for reelection is profoundly unethical and undemocratic, in my opinion. I really hope the House Democrats don't open the door to that kind of thing. I'm a little concerned that you would openly admit to wanting it.
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Old 7th December 2018, 05:39 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
<unnecessary analogy snipped>
Like a bull in a china shop, you have no appreciation for delicacy.
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Old 7th December 2018, 05:50 AM   #63
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I don't know how you spin this as anything but politicians taking deliberate actions in direct opposition to an unambiguous expression of the will of the people.

Scott Walker and his regressive policies were up for election and they lost. The only reason the legislature is composed in its current form is due to extreme Gerrymandering that allow for these politicians to undercut the voting public. So the legislative branch, which has engaged in abhorrent behavior in order to insulate themselves from the will of the people, is stripping power from the one office that is not affected by this Gerrymandering, the governor.

Of course, if Walker had won, they would not have taken these actions because they care little about the balance of power between executive and legislative branches.

All of this is occurring as it becomes increasingly likely that this exact type of Gerrymandering will be in front of the SCOTUS soon and hopefully found unconstitutional. These Republicans have inverted the democratic process such that the politicians choose their voters.
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Old 7th December 2018, 11:41 AM   #64
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Kill the Lame Duck

Quote:
Lame-duck legislative sessions—when outgoing lawmakers convene to enact new policy after an election but before their replacements have been sworn in—are a horse-and-buggy political arrangement that somehow survived into the 21st century. Designed for a time when new elected officials had to travel long distances to make it to the capitol, they are mostly harmless, like an antique shotgun hanging on the wall—at least until recently. Today, Republicans in Wisconsin, Michigan and North Carolina are weaponizing lame duck sessions to thwart the will of the public as newly elected officials sit on the sidelines, watching their predecessors straitjacket their mandates to govern.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...sconsin-222768
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:04 PM   #65
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If Americans are serious about that, the U.K. And the Commonwealth can give you some ideas.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Lame Duck and Recess Appointments are too practices that really have no value in the modern age and are only used now in cynical gamesmanship. Both should go.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:15 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
If Americans are serious about that, the U.K. And the Commonwealth can give you some ideas.
How is adding a bunch of extra vowels to our words help anything?

*Smack* I deserved that.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:18 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Republican-led Wisconsin legislature approves bills to diminish executive power after Democratic election wins



CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/polit...wer/index.html
Well this sort of thing can't possibly ever undermind democracy.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:21 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Lol, elections have consequences.
Yes, and apparently one of those consequences is that the party which gets elected get screwed by the one which doesn't.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:25 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I havenít been given a reason to think it isnít fine. Maybe there is a reason, but the Democrats being thwarted in their quest for power isnít one for me.
Quest for power? They're running for office and got elected!
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:27 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its not the Democrats, ITS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF WISCONSIN that has been thwarted. You have to be Blind Freddy to fail to understand that gerrymandering the boundaries of electorates in order to return a Legislature that runs directly against what the people voted for is simply political corruption.
Worse. It's treason of both the people and the very principles of democracy.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:33 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I havenít been given a reason to think it isnít fine. Maybe there is a reason, but the Democrats being thwarted in their quest for power isnít one for me. And Iíd be fine if the parties were reversed, because Iíve been saying for a long time now that executive powers have grown too large. I had hoped Trump might wake liberals up to that fact, but they still seem oblivious.
It's not the Dems who made a 'grab for power'; it's the GOP. Or do you think being duly elected constitutes a 'grab for power' while what the GOP just did doesn't? Holy moly.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:02 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's not the Dems who made a 'grab for power'; it's the GOP. Or do you think being duly elected constitutes a 'grab for power' while what the GOP just did doesn't? Holy moly.
The power we're talking about is power that always belonged to the legislature, though. The only power they're grabbing is power that was theirs all along.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:07 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You canít get anything right, can you? No, Iím not going to pretend that. But nor did I ever claim that the GOP was generally doing what I want them to do in constraining executive power. You simply made that **** up, because you canít conceive of anyone having a position other than your invented caricature.
This is a dishonest post ^. Either that or you didn't say what you think you said.

Whatever.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:18 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's not the Dems who made a 'grab for power'; it's the GOP. Or do you think being duly elected constitutes a 'grab for power' while what the GOP just did doesn't? Holy moly.
First, the word 'grab' appears nowhere in my post. If you're going to put something in quotes and attribute it to me, then use the exact words that I use.

And of course running for office (even if you don't win) is a quest for power. Duh. That's the whole bloody point: get elected so that you can use the power of the office. There's nothing inherently wrong with that either (nor is there anything inherently noble about it). And I never said or even implied that the GOP wasn't engaging in a quest for power.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:20 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quest for power? They're running for office and got elected!
That's how you get power in a democracy: run for office and get elected. Is that confusing to you? Do you not understand that this is how it works?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Worse. It's treason of both the people and the very principles of democracy.
Treason has a very specific definition in the US. This doesn't even remotely resemble that definition.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:24 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The power we're talking about is power that always belonged to the legislature, though. The only power they're grabbing is power that was theirs all along.
Umm...no. The powers we're talking about belonged to the offices of the governor and the attorney general. The GOP legislature stripped them of those powers.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:39 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First, the word 'grab' appears nowhere in my post. If you're going to put something in quotes and attribute it to me, then use the exact words that I use.

And of course running for office (even if you don't win) is a quest for power. Duh. That's the whole bloody point: get elected so that you can use the power of the office. There's nothing inherently wrong with that either (nor is there anything inherently noble about it). And I never said or even implied that the GOP wasn't engaging in a quest for power.
First, I never said if was you who said that. That is rather clear as I quoted your post so anyone could see exactly what you said. I put them in quotes because 'grab for power' is exactly the term being used in the news media. I was quoting them.

The point is that the GOP pushed through legislation at the last minute in a desperate attempt to protect their own agenda and not out of a belief that those powers didn't rightly belong to the governor or AG. In the eight years they controlled those offices, no move was made to change that. This was a partisan power grab pure and simple.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:58 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Umm...no. The powers we're talking about belonged to the offices of the governor and the attorney general. The GOP legislature stripped them of those powers.
Powers that the legislature can grant or remove are powers that belong to the legislature. Nothing the legislature has done prevents the governor or the AG from exercising their constitutional authority.
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Old 7th December 2018, 03:23 PM   #80
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hey what's going on in this thread? Oh the leftists are up in arms about lame duck session changes?

Huh.

Well I am going to file that in "it is only bad when republicans do it."

When the Democrat party does it, is it still treason?
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