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Old 14th February 2017, 01:52 PM   #121
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Huh. I guess we didn't need a new LCP or traduced "agreement" after all. Just a naked reset.
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:01 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post

- I think that I finally have a satisfactory answer for the Mt Rainier, Texas Sharp Shooter, bucket of sand issue.
Turns out, you don't.
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:06 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I couldn't stay away for long. Though, I'm not sure how long I can stay around either.

- I think that I finally have a satisfactory answer for the Mt Rainier, Texas Sharp Shooter, bucket of sand issue. The simple answer is that we have no real reason to doubt their scientific explanations -- whereas, we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existence (actually, science has no explanation for my existence).
- I don't think that any of you agree with me about that, but I still do -- and, I still think that you guys don't agree because you can't, or aren't willing to, grasp the concept of "self" to which I'm referring. I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.

- It's good to be back.
You're right about one thing: we don't agree with you. But, as always, we fully grasp the concept of self to which you're referring. We see it as a process of a functioning neuro system, whereas you insist that is is an entity that is separate from the brain to which it is tied.
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:09 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Turns out, you don't.
He should have waited at least a couple months. That would have been mildly amusing. This is just sad.
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:14 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I think that I finally have a satisfactory answer for the Mt Rainier, Texas Sharp Shooter, bucket of sand issue. The simple answer is that we have no real reason to doubt their scientific explanations -- whereas, we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existence (actually, science has no explanation for my existence).
You exist as the result of physical processes, as does Mt. Rainier. They are different processes at the macro level - you were created by tectonic movement and erosion, whereas Mt. Rainier was created when a mommy mountain and a daddy mountain loved one another very much. Regardless, it's still physics and chemistry. Do you have reason to doubt that you exist without physics or chemistry?

Quote:
- I don't think that any of you agree with me about that, but I still do -- and, I still think that you guys don't agree because you can't, or aren't willing to, grasp the concept of "self" to which I'm referring. I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.
Turn that statement around and see if you agree with it: Jabba does not agree with the points raised here because she can't, or isn't willing to, grasp the scientific and logical reasons her argument is wrong. You have been unable to proffer a single testable aspect of this self.
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:18 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I couldn't stay away for long. Though, I'm not sure how long I can stay around either.

That's the basic issue with mortality.

Quote:
- I think that I finally have a satisfactory answer for the Mt Rainier, Texas Sharp Shooter, bucket of sand issue. The simple answer is that we have no real reason to doubt their scientific explanations -- whereas, we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existence (actually, science has no explanation for my existence).

Science has an explanation, you just don't like it because it is fatal to your argument. Your consciousness is the result of your brain processes. On the other hand, your alternative hypothesis provides no explanation whatsoever for the existence of your soul. By your own argument you should doubt your favoured hypothesis more than you doubt the one you oppose.

Quote:
- I don't think that any of you agree with me about that, but I still do -- and, I still think that you guys don't agree because you can't, or aren't willing to, grasp the concept of "self" to which I'm referring. I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.

You're begging the question again. The existence of the immortal soul is what you are trying to prove.

Quote:
- It's good to be back.

You've been back most days since you last posted.
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:22 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I couldn't stay away for long. Though, I'm not sure how long I can stay around either.

- I think that I finally have a satisfactory answer for the Mt Rainier, Texas Sharp Shooter, bucket of sand issue. The simple answer is that we have no real reason to doubt their scientific explanations -- whereas, we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existence (actually, science has no explanation for my existence).
My Dear Mr. Savage:

Be so kind as to explain what it is, beyond your own fear of death and dissolution, that makes you free to pretend that there are "reasons to doubt the scientific explanation" for your existence.

It is here you founder, at the first fence. Without a show of valid reasons, you are, simply, repeating your unfounded assertions.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I don't think that any of you agree with me about that, but I still do -- and, I still think that you guys don't agree because you can't, or aren't willing to, grasp the concept of "self" to which I'm referring.
Or it could be that you have not been able to sell your "soul" claptrap here.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.

- It's good to be back.
Of course you "perceive" what you believe. At issue is the fact that you have yet, after lo, these many years, offered the least bit of evidence for your claims.
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Last edited by Slowvehicle; 14th February 2017 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 14th February 2017, 02:49 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That's no good: he needs a LCP who doesn't understand what he's saying so he can pretend that if people understood what he's saying they would agree with him.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I don't think that any of you agree with me about that, but I still do -- and, I still think that you guys don't agree because you can't, or aren't willing to, grasp the concept of "self" to which I'm referring.

Told you so.
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Old 14th February 2017, 03:19 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I couldn't stay away for long.
You came back every day.

45 years of honest, Effective Debate
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Old 14th February 2017, 03:38 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I don't think that any of you agree with me about that, but I still do -- and, I still think that you guys don't agree because you can't, or aren't willing to, grasp the concept of "self" to which I'm referring. I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.

We grasp it perfectly well. You are simply using a different word for the concept of a soul. Your problem is that there is no evidence for such a thing.
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Old 14th February 2017, 04:32 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
You are simply using a different word for the concept of a soul.

He's explicitly admitted this:
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I've said this before, but I am referring to what I would call a soul, but using that word would seem to be begging the question...
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Old 14th February 2017, 07:23 PM   #132
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He knows why he is wrong, but doesn't want to admit that a) He is wrong, and b) He knows that he is wrong and why?

Egads...
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Old 14th February 2017, 09:01 PM   #133
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Jabba, since you can't stop trying to "essentially prove" immortality, and I am nothing if not helpful, here are my poorly worded suggestions:

(1) Drop the "soul" assumption. It is a multiplication of entities, is non-explanatory, and is just plain unlikely. Why does the particular soul that is "you" exist, out of an infinite set of "possible" souls? To "explain" that, you have to make even more unlikely assumptions. And the longer your list of unlikely assumptions gets, the less likely it is that they are all correct.

(2) Drop the "OOFlam" assumption that one particular body is the only "you" that can ever exist. This may require defining sentient experience in a way that will be unpopular in this venue. So be it. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

(3) Stop letting your opponents derail you with the "Texas Sharpshooter" nonsense. You did not "cherry pick" a "you" from a group of yous. That "you" is the only one available. Nor is a hypothesis invalid simply because it is post ante, if the observation upon which the hypothesis is based is sufficiently compelling. My poker nemesis, whose style of play I know nothing about, just went all in on the river. It could be an all-in river bluff, but I'm leaning toward the hypothesis that he has my top pair beaten. That's a post ante hypothesis, based on a single data point. Is it invalid? A guy could learn a series of costly lessons about how reliable a post ante hypothesis based on a single data point can be.

Hint: the correct anthropic assumption is that what you are experiencing is typical, rather than anomalous.

Drop (1) and (2), and what you are left with is your best shot at making a case for any semblance of "immortality". Hold on to (1) and/or (2) and you've got no shot at all.

But "prove" it you will not.
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Old 15th February 2017, 07:25 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I think that I finally have a satisfactory answer for the Mt Rainier, Texas Sharp Shooter, bucket of sand issue. The simple answer is that we have no real reason to doubt their scientific explanations -- whereas, we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existence (actually, science has no explanation for my existence).

Jabba -

You don't "finally" have an answer. This is what you've been saying all along. However, you keep asserting it with no evidence. You invent a thing that doesn't exist (some sort of unchanging "self") and then you demand that science account for it.


The concept is not only unnecessary, but it runs counter to all available evidence. The illusion of an unchanging "self" is a trick the brain plays to keep the organism working. It is a function of the brain. And it's obviously a trick because you are not the same person you were thirty years ago - you look different, act differently, remember things differently, love people who didn't exist back then, and on and on.

If you want to use this concept, you need to show evidence that an unchanging self even exists. What is its definition? What are its characteristics? What is provable about it that excludes the simpler explanation of a working neurosystem?

You've never answered these questions and you never will. But don't just restate your own tired beliefs and tell us that you've "finally" figured something out.
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Old 15th February 2017, 07:57 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
whereas, we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existence...
You couldn't present any, so no. Your personal unwillingness to believe doesn't constitute a "real reason to doubt."

Quote:
actually, science has no explanation for my existence.
Of course it does. And it was presented to you several times. You spent years trying (and failing) to refute it.

Quote:
I still think that you guys don't agree because you can't, or aren't willing to, grasp the concept of "self" to which I'm referring.
"You're too dumb to get it" is a poor argument, Jabba. We don't agree with you because you tried to foist onto the scientific explanation for the sense of self a pile of gratuitous nonsense you made up to try to make it seem more like a soul, and then declared victory because science couldn't explain your made-up nonsense. Nothing more than that. Despite your best efforts, you couldn't make the straw man work, so now you've retreated back into the self-serving argument that you're just so much better than everyone else at "perceiving" things.

Quote:
I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.
"I feel that I'm right" is not an argument. "I perceive things that I declare to be outside science" is not an argument. This is exactly what it means to beg the question. This is very, very far from the mathematical proof you promised.

Quote:
It's good to be back.
No, it isn't. You just did the umpteenth fringe reset of the thread and are back peddling the same nonsense you started with.

Go do something else with your life, Jabba. You're really no good at this.

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Old 15th February 2017, 08:31 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I couldn't stay away for long. Though, I'm not sure how long I can stay around either.
I predict more than long enough to state the same things over and over but somehow paradoxically not long enough to actually answer a single question.

Quote:
I think that I finally have a satisfactory answer for the Mt Rainier, Texas Sharp Shooter, bucket of sand issue. The simple answer is that we have no real reason to doubt their scientific explanations -- whereas, we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existence (actually, science has no explanation for my existence).
Just wrong. And not even new wrong. The same old wrong.

Quote:
I don't think that any of you agree with me about that, but I still do -- and, I still think that you guys don't agree because you can't, or aren't willing to, grasp the concept of "self" to which I'm referring. I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.
Stop it. Just stop it. Stop begging us to agree with you so we'll agree with you.

WE ARE NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU BECAUSE WE ARE JUST REFUSING TO UNDERSTAND YOU WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
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Old 15th February 2017, 09:09 AM   #137
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Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I couldn't stay away for long. Though, I'm not sure how long I can stay around either.



- I think that I finally have a satisfactory answer for the Mt Rainier, Texas Sharp Shooter, bucket of sand issue. The simple answer is that we have no real reason to doubt their scientific explanations -- whereas, we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existence (actually, science has no explanation for my existence).

- I don't think that any of you agree with me about that, but I still do -- and, I still think that you guys don't agree because you can't, or aren't willing to, grasp the concept of "self" to which I'm referring. I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.



- It's good to be back.


Meet the new bollocks, same as the old bollocks.
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Old 15th February 2017, 09:10 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I couldn't stay away for long. Though, I'm not sure how long I can stay around either.

- I think that I finally have a satisfactory answer for the Mt Rainier, Texas Sharp Shooter, bucket of sand issue. The simple answer is that we have no real reason to doubt their scientific explanations -- whereas, we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existencep.
Name one.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.
What leads you to believe that it isn't just your physical brain?
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Old 15th February 2017, 06:28 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That's no good: he needs a LCP who doesn't understand what he's saying so he can pretend that if people understood what he's saying they would agree with him.
But that would mean that he's being... dishonest.
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Old 16th February 2017, 10:05 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
...we do have real reasons to doubt the scientific explanation for my existence
Name one.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I perceive an aspect of me (my "self") that is not determined by my chemistry and cannot be replicated by replicating my chemistry.

What leads you to believe that it isn't just your physical brain?
25 hours later and still no answers.
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Old 16th February 2017, 01:42 PM   #141
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It's almost like he's gobsmacked that his last nonsensical argument was blow out of the skies.
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:11 AM   #142
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48 hours.
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:30 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
It's almost like he's gobsmacked that his last nonsensical argument was blow out of the skies.
Almost, but not quite like that, because it's just the same nonsensical argument he's been making for years, and the same blowout he's encountered for years. It's highly unlikely that he's at all surprised, at this point.

He's probably just trying to resist the urge to do another fringe reset as long as he can.
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:46 AM   #144
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I think he's busy wording a considered and concise response to all the unanswered criticisms of his argument.

Much in the same way that the beach is not near shore.
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Old 17th February 2017, 05:47 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
I think he's busy wording a considered and concise response to all the unanswered criticisms of his argument.

Much in the same way that the beach is not near shore.
Hah! I suppose it could happen.
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Old 17th February 2017, 06:00 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Almost, but not quite like that, because it's just the same nonsensical argument he's been making for years, and the same blowout he's encountered for years. It's highly unlikely that he's at all surprised, at this point.

He's probably just trying to resist the urge to do another fringe reset as long as he can.

Jabba? Do you have a rejoinder to this? It's all about your paralytic arguments.
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