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Old 21st November 2014, 11:02 AM   #161
realpaladin
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
In the mean time, Doron, you will enjoy reading the evolution of a Haskell programmer
I am missing the Google version, where you just spend a few clusters on generating an immense lookup table for al the 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,45 6 possible values on an unsigned octaword.
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Old 21st November 2014, 12:01 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
Well coding is a meritocracy where designations mean little; I mean, I managed a company in India for 1.5 years and I got certified PhD guys in software engineering who I had to teach the basics of complexity theory.
Reminds me of my experience interviewing grad students with Masters Degrees in Computer Science, who can't write a loop from 1 to 10

Quote:
The part that is missing is his intentions; at one point everyone in the thread agreed with him for the sake of finally moving on.
Hard to tell what his intentions are. 7 years in one thread borders on unnatural endurance, like a computer program that somehow became hu---Oh my god. Can it... or... is it... Markov... turing test... macros... cybernetics...

I'll be right back, I'm having an epiphany moment right now.

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Kidding!

He seems like a reasonably nice person. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't mind him as a coworker. He would not be anywhere near the oddest coworker either, not by a considerable margin.

Quote:
As Apathia stated; the pattern repeats and repeats; whatever happens, his joy is in the discussing of something and not in the achieving of something.
That is plausible.

I'm reminded of an acquaintance who had a lifelong dream of being a writer. He made his dream come true when he self-published his first novella. But, he is a writer who can't stand literary criticism. He was endlessly frustrated through college in creative writing classes. No one liked his stories. They wanted him to change it. They had every manner of unhelpful critique and suggestions for "improvement". It made no sense. What needed to be improved? His stories were imaginative, full of lively characters, his plots contained multiple threads of interconnected story arcs, his stories are strung together in his unique brand of breezy prose. He could not comprehend that anything could improve upon his already perfect stories. See for yourself. In his own words, he is an exceptionally gifted writer, like a present-day Milton or Dante. He has 7 or 8 more novels and novellas, literally 1000s of pages, each as faultless as the others.

His perception of his writing ability is a little biased. But, at the end of the day, this acquaintance writes and keeps writing because its fun and stimulating.

Likewise for Doron. He genuinely seems to enjoy the stimulation of highly abstract thoughts and conversation.
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Old 21st November 2014, 12:19 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
can I say that one worker who places an infinite number of stones infinitely fast also completes the mission?
Dear Dessi,

Infinitely fast (where in this case, we do not measure fast in terms of time) does not provide the needed accurate information if we use only ∞ to describe Infinity.

The accurate way to do that is as follows (if the term fast is considered (again, not in terms of time)):

|N| fast < |P(N)| fast < |P(P(N))| fast < |P(P(P(N)))| fast < |P(P(P(P(N))))| fast < ...
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Old 21st November 2014, 12:32 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
I hypothesize that Doron interprets mathematical notation as a kind of source code.
Dear Dessi,

It is probably your way to communicate in this thread since you are a professional software engineer.
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Old 21st November 2014, 12:36 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
He could not comprehend that anything could improve upon his already perfect stories. See for yourself. In his own words, he is an exceptionally gifted writer, like a present-day Milton or Dante. He has 7 or 8 more novels and novellas, literally 1000s of pages, each as faultless as the others.
I definitely see what you mean... garbled tenses, missing words but what would put me off is... well, the dashes... I can see no function for them...

Other than that, I'd read that story. I read about 3 books a week (I don't do anything 'smart' on my smartphone other than reading books and checking the upcoming weather).

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
His perception of his writing ability is a little biased. But, at the end of the day, this acquaintance writes and keeps writing because its fun and stimulating.

Likewise for Doron. He genuinely seems to enjoy the stimulation of highly abstract thoughts and conversation.
I wrote an article on the D-K effect and it's implications in peer-assessment for the purpose of recruiting.

But here's the thing, if this is the case, then Doron is breaking his 'contract' with the forum.
However, he might not realize it. So, in essence he adheres, within the boundaries of his abilities but with the fullest intentions, to the 'contract'.

Let's see how far you get. I'll be quiet and become an E. for a while.
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Old 21st November 2014, 12:42 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Dessi
Quote:
As Apathia stated; the pattern repeats and repeats; whatever happens, his joy is in the discussing of something and not in the achieving of something.
Well, my joy is discussing of something by also being aware of the silence among the discussed, like music, where both sound and silence complement each other into some piece of music.

As for my goal, it is using neutral monist view of Consciousness in terms of mathematical reasoning, as can be seen, for example, in http://www.sciencechatforum.com/view...269245#p269245.
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Old 21st November 2014, 01:15 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
As for my goal, it is using neutral monist view of Consciousness in terms of mathematical reasoning, as can be seen, for example, in http://www.sciencechatforum.com/view...269245#p269245.
Gorgeous diagrams, they remind me of minimalistic mathematical art.

Strictly out of curiosity, how did you generate this image.
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Old 21st November 2014, 03:25 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Gorgeous diagrams, they remind me of minimalistic mathematical art.
Thank you dear Dessi, and also thank you for the beautiful link.

Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Strictly out of curiosity, how did you generate this image.
I used AutoCad without any programing, in this case.

But I know to write programs with AutoLisp.

Please look at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3h...ew?usp=sharing.

Thank you.
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Old 21st November 2014, 05:25 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
Yes, I know you were inviting Dessi to read that, but I decided to read it again after several years. I see you've cleaned it up a little, removed some tangents that obscure your intentions.

Ah, Friend vs Enemy, so simplistic. It doesn't allow for the complexity of Human cooperation, that you express with the colorful diagram. Friends and enemies get subsumed under larger umbrellas where they are allies in face of the next outsider threat.

And if only we could come to an ecology of total inclusion, where there is one mega umbrella that we all live under and nobody outside that.

How to mathematically express that Ultimate Inclusion, that's been your quest these many years.

If there were just a Mathematics of Inclusive relationship, a language that entailed Right Relationship whenever it was spoken, then our Science and Engineering would have a conscience.

That's what it's all about isn't it?

I'm reminded of Nicholas De Cusa's circle of infinite radius.
With it's circumference at infinity, it includes all. There is no exclusive center, but each and every one included is central.

This is a mathematical analog, using mathematics as a parable.
Another might be the Mobius Strip that has no sides. Or the Klein Bottle that has no inside vs outside.

But Doron, do we really need an elaborate system to get the simple lesson?

There's such a thing as regarding each other as persons in our own right.
I see you as [i]you[i], you aren't primarily of any colorful umbrella. Youaren't included in anything. You aren't the subject of any distinction. You are who you are unconditionally.
You may be friend, you may be enemy, you may be frienemy, but I regard you above all those distinctions. You aren't an object of my agendas. You aren't an object pinned on the space-time continuum or assigned a place in Complexity. You are You. I accept your existence, affirm it as well, unconditionally, without need of an objective, even mathematical, justification.

I do this without a special Ethical Logic. I regard you this way without a clue of your Organic Mathematics or the "Direct Perception" you speak of.
Everyday there are people who love this way who will never understand your system of umbrellas. Most of them won't even understand the words I'm using now. But they see the You in others. They are empathetic and compassionate.

I can see how an engineer wants an ethic that can be tinkered with, just as many find the esoteric system of a religion to appealing.
But I prefer seeing you as You rather than an object or element of my ethical system. I want to hold you in my heart, not make you a number in my head.

I stopped trying to communicate with you over three years ago just because I couldn't make any progress with your Organic Mathematics. In frustration I almost made a cruel post. So I bowed out. But I have no ill feelings about you. I accept that your Organic Mathematics is necessary to your own process. Please just consider that we humans have other ways of transcending our us vs thems, and will probably survive to send signals to other worlds though none of us are getting your program.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 01:30 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Please just consider that we humans have other ways of transcending our us vs thems, and will probably survive to send signals to other worlds though none of us are getting your program.
Dear Apathia,

This transcending is exactly Unity Consciousness as addressed by neutral monist point of view in http://www.sciencechatforum.com/view...269245#p269245.

With all the respect dear Apathia, I think that what you call you in others is not satisfied without both personal AND non-personal aspects of you.

As for Mathematics, it is the main tool for our technological developments, and if its main stream is based on false\true excluded middle reasoning that also excludes the mathematicians as factors of the results, there is no wonder that our technological developments are fully fulfilled only if the mathematicians eliminating themselves in order to get the requested results, or more generally, human beings have to eliminate themselves in order to fully fulfill technological developments.

This is exactly the point where Organic Mathematics gets on stage and its first step is to point out the danger of excluding (pure or applied) mathematicians as an essential factor of their works, which unfortunately has a very high probability of human beings' self destruction as a natural conclusions of the current main-stream reasoning.

And the tragedy is that the work of few determine the destiny of the rest of human beings, where the rest of human beings as mathematical laymen have no clue what actually going on, until it is too late.

So dear Apathia, your naive approach is too dangerous as a strategic\tactic needed actions.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 09:44 AM   #171
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Doron,

Unity Consciousness is something I get and have a felt sense for. I don't attache the same same philosophy, politic, and supernatural expectations the TM people do, but I relish the Unity. I'm a neutral monist merely in the sense that I'm an empiricist who doesn't deal with metaphysical substances, be they "mind" or "matter." For me it's just the "Suchness," and the quality of acceptance and inclusion in relation to myself, others and my environment. That quality is my spirituality. It transcends any content about beliefs and languages. It isn't dependent upon a mental framework. It informs and transforms my heart first.

From there it's a question of what we do with our tools. Yes technology without heart is crippling, and worse. But heart cannot be an engineered component. Religions and, perhaps, Organic Mathematics, give a language and structure people can use to speak of their spirituality. But empathy and compassion always transcend their systems, and sometimes must even break them. People are more important than religion, ethics and any attempted logic of ethics.

But if the perpetuity of the Human Race is dependent upon your system of belief, then we are certainly toast. We don't understand it. It doesn't help.
I hope it helps you have heart. I accept it as your process. But alas, the rest of us are as good as retarded. So perhaps it's natural that we will become extinct.

You and I have some common ground: Unity Consciousness, natural empathy, and a conscience that wants a better world. You attach these values to your Organic Mathematics. I don't understand how they attach. I don't see how empathy and responsibility follow from .9999999.... does not equal 1.

In my opinion things get dangerous when people attach the core values of Humanity to their exclusive religious or ethical system, and then exclude others who don't believe or understand it from being truly Human.

You have yet to demonstrate to any of us how your Organic Mathematics actually enhances empathy, compassion, Inclusion, and acceptance. You have not presented it in any sort of way that speaks to the direct perception of our hearts, much less a cogent mental presentation. You need to show us how it works.

Have you presented your work to an audience in the Transcendental Meditation Community? I would be interested in how they translate it into their perspective. It may be that someone of that tradition has a view on how it meshes with their philosophy.

I don't know how to communicate with you about Organic Mathematics. Ordinary Mathematics is already a struggle for me. So I just have my naive things to speak of.

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Old 22nd November 2014, 10:28 AM   #172
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doron,

I know this 7-year thread seems arcane to most, but to a set theorist is this stuff just {elementary}? :)
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Old 22nd November 2014, 10:49 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I don't understand how they attach. I don't see how empathy and responsibility follow from .9999999.... does not equal 1.
Very simple, the mathematician's observations' abilities is an essential factor of the results.

Moreover, the linkage between head and heart can't be achieved without us as essential factors of the results or our developed technologies, where the technology of consciousness is exactly the art of the linkage among head and heart, that can't be fully fulfilled only at the multiple aspect of reality.

Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I don't attache the same same philosophy, politic, and supernatural expectations the TM people do, but I relish the Unity.
Techniques like TM are simply the natural ability of Consciousness to become aware of itself as Unity, and by achieve this awareness, multiplicity naturally becomes an ever developed harmonious reality.

No supernatural woo is involved here exactly because Unity is the foundation among multiplicity but not vise versa.

Can we find problems within TM movement?, probably yes.

Does it mean that things can't be improved?, probably no.

In other words, I am still optimist about the success of techniques like TM, and I wish to use systematic scientific methods in order to improve them in such a way that they will not be depend on any particular movement.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 10:59 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by RickM View Post
doron,

I know this 7-year thread seems arcane to most, but to a set theorist is this stuff just {elementary}?
Hey RickM,

This 7-year thread is not elementary to set theorists that exclude themselves as essential factors of the results.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 12:40 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
Very simple, the mathematician's observations' abilities is an essential factor of the results.

Moreover, the linkage between head and heart can't be achieved without us as essential factors of the results or our developed technologies, where the technology of consciousness is exactly the art of the linkage among head and heart, that can't be fully fulfilled only at the multiple aspect of reality.
In my view Mathematics is both creativity and discovery. It is an Art, a Human expression. It has been integral to changing cultural milieu.

I realize you have views about infinity that aren't in sync with contemporary Mathematics. And it appears you feel that a right view of infinity is essential for a healthy ethic.
I haven't been able to understand your right view. You haven't been consistent on the topic. Except that Limits Infinitesimals are hogwash and .9999999.... can never equal one.
It may be that in your system it doesn't. That's OK! Mathematics isn't a monolith.

An ex-girlfriend of seven or eight years ago agreed with you. She said it was very plain to her that you were right. "How can it possibly equal 1? The 9s don't stop!" I suppose she has the Direct Perception you speak of, but I'm afraid it didn't help her be a empathetic and compassionate person. That sad woman has some serious integrity issues.

So we must all be able to manipulate this "Technology of Consciousness," or we can only be selfish bastards?

Alas, I like the millions, am Organic Mathematics retarded.

What helps for me is being aware of my thoughts and feelings and practicing Mindfulness Meditation.

May I ask you a personal question?
Specifically, with examples, how has Organic Mathematics helped you to be a more mindful, empathetic, compassionate, and accepting person?
Show me the heart in it, please.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 03:42 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I realize you have views about infinity that aren't in sync with contemporary Mathematics. And it appears you feel that a right view of infinity is essential for a healthy ethic.
I haven't been able to understand your right view. You haven't been consistent on the topic. Except that Limits Infinitesimals are hogwash and .9999999.... can never equal one.
It may be that in your system it doesn't. That's OK! Mathematics isn't a monolith.
0.999... = 1 OR 0.999... < 1 according to the mathematician's observation of the real-line, and this is exactly what I mean by say that the mathematician is an essential factor of mathematical results.

For more details please read very carefully http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=110.

Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
What helps for me is being aware of my thoughts and feelings and practicing Mindfulness Meditation.
Thoughts and feelings are only the multiplicity aspect of Consciousness.

It means that actual awareness of Unity is not systematically achieved, unless you also transcend multiplicity.

TM is such technology that systematically and naturally enables direct awareness of Unity.

Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
May I ask you a personal question?
Specifically, with examples, how has Organic Mathematics helped you to be a more mindful, empathetic, compassionate, and accepting person?
Show me the heart in it, please.
Organic Mathematics is simply my head AND heart view of the need of mathematicians to be aware of themselves as essential factors of pure or applied mathematical results, in order to become naturally responsible human beings.

As for me I am more simple and straightforward with my feelings about leaving creatures but only other persons have the right to say if I am empathetic, compassionate, and accepting them.

In one thing I can be sure, I am not an enlightened person.

I simply love my family and my friends and don't hate anyone.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 06:04 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
0.999... = 1 OR 0.999... < 1 according to the mathematician's observation of the real-line, and this is exactly what I mean by say that the mathematician is an essential factor of mathematical results.
Are you saying that 0.999... < 1 no matter how many 9's you add to the string (true) or that even with an infinite number of 9's, 0.999... < 1 (untestable since infinity is not a number)?
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Old 22nd November 2014, 06:23 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
0.999... = 1 OR 0.999... < 1 according to the mathematician's observation of the real-line, and this is exactly what I mean by say that the mathematician is an essential factor of mathematical results.
The "OR" Very interesting! I hadn't noticed your point about that till now. You're saying it it's relative to the mathematician's (or ex-girlfriend's stance of observation. It may be that it doesn't equal 1 because the 9s don't stop, OR it may equal 1 because the 9s don't stop.
You are positing an ambiguity in Mathematics.
I'm not a Mathematician. I suspect that most Mathematicians wouldn't necessarily accept such an ambiguity.
But as a someone whose field of study was literature I appreciate ambiguity as a means to create thematic depth. I see how this openness relates to tolerance.

Previously, I thought that you were trying to advance a dogmatic position that would not admit the value and utility of modern Mathematics. But I see now you are simply trying to show the inherent openness of Mathematics.

Or at least I hope I'm getting you correctly now. I've been burned before.

Quote:
Thoughts and feelings are only the multiplicity aspect of Consciousness.

It means that actual awareness of Unity is not systematically achieved, unless you also transcend multiplicity.

TM is such technology that systematically and naturally enables direct awareness of Unity.
We've exchanged about this before. I agree about the multiplicity and unity aspects of meditation, and the transcendence of multiplicity in unity, though I don't see this as the sole property of trademark TM, and don't call it a "technology."


Quote:
Organic Mathematics is simply my head AND heart view of the need of mathematicians to be aware of themselves as essential factors of pure or applied mathematical results, in order to become naturally responsible human beings.

As for me I am more simple and straightforward with my feelings about leaving creatures but only other persons have the right to say if I am empathetic, compassionate, and accepting them.

In one thing I can be sure, I am not an enlightened person.

I simply love my family and my friends and don't hate anyone.
You wish a Mathematics that can be a language of Transcendence and Awareness. I think that it is, even for those who don't find it as fluid as you do. But please be my guest and advocate a more open and fluid view.

"I'm not "Enlightened" either. I'm a fallible Human Being, and as such I have mercy on myself and others. Meditation has encouraged and broadened my mercy and empathy. I don't hate anyone either and want to let go of dogmatic ways of thinking and speaking that put down and exclude others.

Thank you for giving your approach its personal and Human context. I'm glad I engaged you again. I don't think I'll ever get the way your Organic Mathematics is supposed to work in practice, but it helps to see the spirit and intent of it.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 06:44 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
TYou are positing an ambiguity in Mathematics.
I'm not a Mathematician. I suspect that most Mathematicians wouldn't necessarily accept such an ambiguity.
Doron is not positing ambiguity. Doron redefines things to yield a different result, then claims it is a matter of perspective.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 08:10 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Doron is not positing ambiguity. Doron redefines things to yield a different result, then claims it is a matter of perspective.
I think he has a perspective with which he tries to stretch and twist mathematical terms to accommodate. The perspective itself is ambiguous and not formally logical.

It bears some similarity to the notions of Complexity expressed in Arthur Koestler's Janus, a summing Up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus:_A_Summing_Up

Doron attempts his own logic and mathematic based on these principles, but the framework doesn't seem robust enough to build the calculus necessary for the equations of physics.

Is there ambiguity in Mathematics? Mathematical Logic is certainly no longer the bastion of certainty Bertrand Russell expected it to be.

I think that Doron primarily uses the language of Mathematics analogically to express his philosophy. He's happy he can do that with his framework and so isn't concerned about applications beyond his "Technology of Consciousness.
He hopes his Organic Mathematics could umbrella contemporary Mathematics as a perspective within it. He hasn't shown how that would work yet.

It seemed to me back seven years ago that his position was that Euclid had led mathematics astray, so that now it is simply wrong. Now it looks like he's taking a more tolerant view.

There's the old split over whether Mathematics is created or discovered. The Neutral Monist view is that it is both. Doron sees that as a place to assert Humanity into Science. He feels his framework leaves room for the humanities to wiggle.

Yes, I've walked out onto the plank again. It's very possible that Doron will give me a shove in his next reply, and I'll be wrong for suggesting that his use of the word "OR" had any significance.
But that's OK. It will simply show things as they are.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 09:48 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are you saying that 0.999... < 1 no matter how many 9's you add to the string (true) or that even with an infinite number of 9's, 0.999... < 1 (untestable since infinity is not a number)?
Hey psionl0,

Please look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=163.

0.999... = 1 if |N| fast observation is used.

0.999... < 1 if more than |N| fast observation is used.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 09:51 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I think he has a perspective with which he tries to stretch and twist mathematical terms to accommodate. The perspective itself is ambiguous and not formally logical
You are wrong dear Apathia, please look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=181.

Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Doron is not positing ambiguity. Doron redefines things to yield a different result, then claims it is a matter of perspective.
My suggested view of the real-line (and also the view beyond it) is more accurate than the traditional point of view that uses only ∞ to describe Infinity, in this discussed case.

Moreover, I don't care if transfinite cardinality is discovered or invented.

I do care about the mathematician's abilities to use it as a part of his\her mathematical work, in this discussed case.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 10:29 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
Hey psionl0,

Please look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=163.

0.999... = 1 if |N| fast observation is used.

0.999... < 1 if more than |N| fast observation is used.
I do not know the term "fast observation" let alone "Infinitely fast".
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Old 22nd November 2014, 11:04 PM   #184
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Yup! I was wrong about Ambiguity.
Organic Mathematics has out raced me again.
I can't even keep up with the "fast observation."

And since I realize that I'm not going to get what you mean by a "fast observation" as opposed to a "more than fast observation," I'm not going to speculate or attempt to understand.

Grace and peace, Doron. I wish I could understand this topic which is so fine and important to you. I wish I could find a common place of understanding we could work with. But again, I'm not confident I understand any word you say. We don't share a common language.

So please just accept a smile, as I leave you to whatever is going on here with the wish that it gives you happiness.
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Old 23rd November 2014, 08:03 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Yup! I was wrong about Ambiguity.
Organic Mathematics has out raced me again.
I can't even keep up with the "fast observation."
That's just another of Doron's lateral shifts. His track record at defining things is, well, poor, but he does often substitute in different words now and again. I guess he thinks he's moving forward, but it is really sideways.
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Old 23rd November 2014, 08:10 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
My suggested view of the real-line (and also the view beyond it) is more accurate than the traditional point of view that uses only ∞ to describe Infinity, in this discussed case.
No, your "suggested view" abandons meaning. The notation 0.999... has a precise meaning, and that meaning gives it a precise value, and that value is 1. Make up as many excuses as you like about points and speed blended with an unending supply of strawmen, and the value remains unchanged.
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Old 23rd November 2014, 01:01 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I do not know the term "fast observation" let alone "Infinitely fast".
Please look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=158.
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Old 23rd November 2014, 01:03 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Yup! I was wrong about Ambiguity.
Organic Mathematics has out raced me again.
I can't even keep up with the "fast observation."
Also please look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=158 (including the links).
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Old 23rd November 2014, 01:06 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
That's just another of Doron's lateral shifts.
Wrong jsfisher, I simply communicate with Dessi, as seen in http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=158.
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Old 23rd November 2014, 01:10 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
No, your "suggested view" abandons meaning. The notation 0.999... has a precise meaning, and that meaning gives it a precise value, and that value is 1.
The meaning is given by observation, as done in http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=158.

Your observation is simply limited only to |N|.

More details are given in http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=110 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7&postcount=73.
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Old 23rd November 2014, 04:06 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
The meaning is given by observation....

Only in the stuff you make up, but the stuff you make up isn't Mathematics.
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Old 23rd November 2014, 04:07 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
Wrong jsfisher, I simply communicate with Dessi....
Were that true, you'd be defining your terms, not shifting to a different set of undefined terms.
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Old 23rd November 2014, 06:38 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
Your diagram appears to depict the building of a set whose elements are the empty set and sets of sets containing the empty set. If you continue the building process indefinitely, you would have a "countably infinite" set.

I still don't see what any of that has to do with "fast observation" or "Infinitely fast".
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Old 24th November 2014, 09:22 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Only in the stuff you make up, but the stuff you make up isn't Mathematics.
Again, what you call Mathematics is simply |N| observation of the real-line.

Fortunately Mathematics is not restricted only to this particular observation, as seen in http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=110.
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Old 24th November 2014, 09:40 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I still don't see what any of that has to do with "fast observation" or "Infinitely fast".
Please read all of http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=158 including the links.

Thank you.
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Old 26th November 2014, 02:19 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Were that true, you'd be defining your terms, not shifting to a different set of undefined terms.
My terms are rigorously defined by the fact that |n>1| < |N| < |P(N)| < |P(P(N))| < |P(P(P(N)))| < |P(P(P(P(N))))| < ... , so you claim has no basis.
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Old 26th November 2014, 06:52 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
My terms are rigorously defined by the fact that |n>1| < |N| < |P(N)| < |P(P(N))| < |P(P(P(N)))| < |P(P(P(P(N))))| < ... , so you claim has no basis.
Which of your many made-up terms are you rigorously defining with this trivial iteration of Cantor's Theorem?

Be that as it may, what does any of this have to do with the mathematical meaning of 0.999...?
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Old 26th November 2014, 03:28 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Which of your many made-up terms are you rigorously defining with this trivial iteration of Cantor's Theorem?

Be that as it may, what does any of this have to do with the mathematical meaning of 0.999...?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=190.

The mathematical meaning of 0.999... is changed by observation, or in other words, the mathematician is an essential factor of the meaning of a given mathematical object.
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Old 26th November 2014, 03:47 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by doronshadmi View Post
Pointing back to a previous post of yours doesn't suddenly make it do what it did not do before. You did not define anything in that prior post; you mostly pointed to yet other previous posts where you also failed to define anything.

Perhaps rather than reiterating empty statements by URL proxy, you could simply post, in one place, a definition for one of these made-up terms of yours.

Quote:
The mathematical meaning of 0.999... is changed by observation....
No, it isn't. It is well-fixed, and Doron doesn't get to rewrite the meaning of things to suit his personal incredulity.
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Old 26th November 2014, 09:22 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
No, it isn't. It is well-fixed,
Dear jsfisher,

This is my last post to you on this fine subject.

Fortunately Mathematics is not restricted only to your arbitrary |N| observation.
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