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Old 1st November 2016, 06:07 AM   #41
Paul Bethke
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What sister? The bible doesn't mention any. And why is gunderscored happy with incest?

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Gen 5:4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.
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Old 1st November 2016, 06:27 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are probably not familiar with the Mitsvot—if you were you would clearly see that not all can be applied.
And yet you refuse to specify your ACTUAL criteria to explain why you do not, for example, follow the grooming and clothing laws.

You claim Passover is not relevant to you because of the sacrifice of Christ, even though Passover is celebrated to commemorate the Jews being freed from slavery in Egypt, an act still celebrated and talked about by Christians in general.

You dismissed discussion of the perfectly feasible Mitzvot you choose not to follow as "futile."

Your claim to care about following the Mitzvot is a demonstrable lie. You want to keep kosher but it's clear you disregard many other Mitzvot not upon a criteria of what is and is not possible, but what you do and do not feel like doing. Do you observe the Sabbath as ordered in the law?

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You should know what is done with false prophets those who blaspheme.
Seeing as you are a proven false prophet who blasphemes the Lord by proclaiming yourself infallible, you're going to get a very up close and personal demonstration of how God deals with such abominations in the afterlife.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I am looking forward to sinners coming to repentance.
Then you should lead by example and start by repenting for the sin of Pride.
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Old 1st November 2016, 06:28 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are probably not familiar with the Mitsvot—if you were you would clearly see that not all can be applied.
Yet Jesus said that he did not come to change a word of the law, meaning that, if you are one of his followers, you follow the Mizvot. All of it. So, how long are your tassels? Are you following all the high feasts? Etc. Otherwise you are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing and picking and choosing what you like from the Bible and ignoring the rest.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited breach of rule 0


Quote:
You should know what is done with false prophets those who blaspheme.
I believe it involves something unpleasant. And it's not being compelled to drink cheap beer.

Quote:
I am looking forward to sinners coming to repentance.

Jesus came to set straight that which the previous generation got wrong!

Moses got it wrong?
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Old 1st November 2016, 06:42 AM   #44
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Gen 5:4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.
Too late, Cain was long gone before that.
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Old 1st November 2016, 07:08 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are probably not familiar with the Mitsvot—if you were you would clearly see that not all can be applied.
Palpable irony: you, personally, calling into question another's familiarity with "the Mitsvot"...(and further proof that "infallibility" dose not seem to apply to linguistics).

The point is not whether all the Law "can be" applied. You are on record as claiming that your Jesus was said to be said to insist that none of the Law could be set aside; yet here you are, setting yourself as arbiter of which of the Law can no longer be applied.

All the while continuing to ignore the point of "Peter's" "vision".

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You should know what is done with false prophets those who blaspheme.
Again, your "infallibility" does not seem to encompass lucid communication. Here, you appear to be equivocating "false prophets" and "those who blaspheme"; from you own experience, you know that there is more than one way to be a "false prophet"--for instance, one can make a string of prophecies threats "predictions" that simply, demonstrably, fail to come about, which is the very essence of being a "false prophet". And it never goes away.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I am looking forward to sinners coming to repentance.
Good luck.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Jesus came to set straight that which the previous generation got wrong!
Then why do you continue to misrepresent him?
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Last edited by Slowvehicle; 1st November 2016 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 1st November 2016, 07:14 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I am not out to make followers rather converts to the faith.
And how many of those have you managed?

That's right, still zero.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
There are many people more knowledgeable than me
That's the understatement of the year.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
but few with the understanding of the will of Creator.
If you have such understanding why do you have a 100% failure rate in prophesy and miracle working?

If you have such understanding why are you constantly humiliated in your tortured, inept attempts at Biblical interpretation?

How do you expect anyone to believe you understand the will of a god when you are so woefully, laughably ignorant of his / her words?

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So in that way I stand alone.
In about 50 feet of raw sewage.
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Old 1st November 2016, 07:29 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Yet Jesus said that he did not come to change a word of the law, meaning that, if you are one of his followers, you follow the Mizvot. All of it. So, how long are your tassels? Are you following all the high feasts? Etc. Otherwise you are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing and picking and choosing what you like from the Bible and ignoring the rest.
No one person can abrogate the whole mitzvoth—but no one can follow all the decrees, as some apply to the Temple, the high Priest, farmers woman—A person can adhere to the Covenant, and the dietary laws—no need for tassels. Only the Sabbath. Do trim my hair and beard. Do adhere to the moral section----as a builder I would put a parapet around my roof, do not mix breed animals.
I am not a farmer---

210. To let the land lie fallow in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11; Lev. 25:2) (affirmative) (CCI20).
211. To cease from tilling the land in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11) (affirmative) (Lev. 25:2) (CCI21).
212. Not to till the ground in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI22).
213. Not to do any work on the trees in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI23).
214. Not to reap the aftermath that grows in the Sabbatical year, in the same way as it is reaped in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI24).
215. Not to gather the fruit of the tree in the Sabbatical year in the same way as it is gathered in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI25).


Quote:
Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 0 in quote
Quote:
I believe it involves something unpleasant. And it's not being compelled to drink cheap beer.
Moses got it wrong?
Not everything—the laws at that time if obeyed would yield the prosperity that was envisaged—the people got it wrong.

Many of those laws are in the present system of governing. Many of those laws that are violated have resulted in the corruption of the world—especially the sexually perverse and dietary laws.

One can trace the neglect of those laws to the present ills of mankind, and womankind. Israel was intended to be the light to the nations, but has failed, so now the purged Church will arise to rectify everything and bring the Kingdom of God into effect, adopting many of the laws in the Torah.
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Old 1st November 2016, 07:38 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
No one person can abrogate the whole mitzvoth—but no one can follow all the decrees, as some apply to the Temple, the high Priest, farmers woman—A person can adhere to the Covenant, and the dietary laws—no need for tassels. Only the Sabbath. Do trim my hair and beard. Do adhere to the moral section----as a builder I would put a parapet around my roof, do not mix breed animals.
I am not a farmer---

210. To let the land lie fallow in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11; Lev. 25:2) (affirmative) (CCI20).
211. To cease from tilling the land in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11) (affirmative) (Lev. 25:2) (CCI21).
212. Not to till the ground in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI22).
213. Not to do any work on the trees in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI23).
214. Not to reap the aftermath that grows in the Sabbatical year, in the same way as it is reaped in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI24).
215. Not to gather the fruit of the tree in the Sabbatical year in the same way as it is gathered in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI25).

Not everything—the laws at that time if obeyed would yield the prosperity that was envisaged—the people got it wrong.

Many of those laws are in the present system of governing. Many of those laws that are violated have resulted in the corruption of the world—especially the sexually perverse and dietary laws.

One can trace the neglect of those laws to the present ills of mankind, and womankind. Israel was intended to be the light to the nations, but has failed, so now the purged Church will arise to rectify everything and bring the Kingdom of God into effect, adopting many of the laws in the Torah.
Do you follow these? By the logic you've stated on this forum you should.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
17. To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.
18. To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
19. To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
20. To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
21. To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.

Posting lists of rules you are physically incapable of following does not negate the fact that there are others you're perfectly capable of following yet choose not to.

I encourage everyone in this thread to follow this link and find a Mitzvot or two that are perfectly reasonable for a city dweller in modern times to practice and ask Paul if he obeys it.
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Old 1st November 2016, 07:42 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Palpable irony: you, personally, calling into question another's familiarity with "the Mitsvot"...(and further proof that "infallibility" dose not seem to apply to linguistics).

The point is not whether all the Law "can be" applied. You are on record as claiming that your Jesus was said to be said to insist that none of the Law could be set aside; yet here you are, setting yourself as arbiter of which of the Law can no longer be applied.

All the while continuing to ignore the point of "Peter's" "vision".



Again, your "infallibility" does not seem to encompass lucid communication. Here, you appear to be equivocating "false prophets" and "those who blaspheme"; from you own experience, you know that there is more than one way to be a "false prophet"--for instance, one can make a string of prophecies threats "predictions" that simply, demonstrably, fail to come about, which is the very essence of being a "false prophet". And it never goes away.



Good luck.



Then why do you continue to misrepresent him?
Your understanding of the vision given to Peter is a sure indication that you know nothing of prophecy. You may know words. But I have knowledge of those words.

I do not misrepresent Jesus in any way—in actual fact I uphold his prophecies—you see Sir the Jews no longer have a Temple, so naturally all laws pertaining to the service of the Temple are redundant.

The parallel between the Temple service and the purged Church replaces many of the Mitsvot, so now it is to understand which they are.
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Old 1st November 2016, 07:47 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The parallel between the Temple service and the purged Church replaces many of the Mitsvot, so now it is to understand which they are.
And yet when I started the thread Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot asking you to clarify what rules were and were not relevant, you dismissed the task as "futile."

Make up your mind. Is understanding which of the Mitzvot we should be following "futile" or not?"

If it's so important that Christians follow a selection of those rules, why do you, who claims to be the only person who truly understands God's logic for which rules should be followed, dismiss efforts to elucidate them as "futile?"
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Old 1st November 2016, 07:50 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Do you follow these? By the logic you've stated on this forum you should.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
17. To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.
18. To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
19. To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
20. To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
21. To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.

Posting lists of rules you are physically incapable of following does not negate the fact that there are others you're perfectly capable of following yet choose not to.

I encourage everyone in this thread to follow this link and find a Mitzvot or two that are perfectly reasonable for a city dweller in modern times to practice and ask Paul if he obeys it.
Edited by Agatha:  Removed beach of rule 0 and rule 12
there are many of the Mitsvot that are essential to the faith—there are many that are redundant—there are those that apply only to Jews living in Israel.

All dietary laws, and laws pertaining to sexual immorality are essential to the faith.

Judicial laws are not supported by all, especially the death sentence.
So when the Kingdom of God materialises then much of the Mitsvot will come into effect.
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Old 1st November 2016, 07:55 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I am not out to make followers rather converts to the faith.
There are many people more knowledgeable than me—but few with the understanding of the will of Creator. So in that way I stand alone.
Oh come on PB. Genesis is utterly borked beyond belief.

Quote:
4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
So now we have Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel in that order.

Quote:
4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
gunderscored hates vegetarians.

Quote:
4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Cain has a fit of religious jealousy and murders his younger brother because gunderscored made a dick move. Now we are down to Adam, Eve and Cain.

Quote:
4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Odd that gunderscored seems to have been unaware of these doings, isn't it?
Still only Adam, Eve and Cain.

Quote:
4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
gunderscored tells a huge lie. just a few verses later, Cain is settling down, marrying, building a city and populating it with his own clan.

Quote:
4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Wait, what? There are still only two other people so far who could possibly find Cain and do anything to him, Adam and Eve, his own parents.

Quote:
4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Where did she come from.

And welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 3

Quote:
4:18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
Okay. Now we have Cain, Cains squeeze, Enoch, Irad, Mehujael, Methusael and Lamech. Enoch, Irad, Mehujael and Methusael must have been knocking up somebody and there is only one available female. Sounds a bit of a rural arrangement if you catch my drift.

Let us be generous and assume they married some women who came from somewhere. In the land of Nod where Cain is building a city we now have Cain, Mrs. Cain, Enoch, Mrs. Enoch, Irad, Mrs. Irad, Mehujael, Mrs. Mehujael, Methusael, and Mrs. Methusael. Oh and Lamech. More about him shortly.

Welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 11.

Quote:
4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
Welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 13 all of a sudden. Home of polygamy and adultery too.

Quote:
4:20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.

4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.
Welcome to the City of Enoch, Population: 17. Home of polygamy and adultery. Bet Namaah will be having a busy and complicated romantic life all of a sudden.

Quote:
4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
Welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 16. Home of polygamy and adultery and murder. Who did Lamech kill? The possibilities are very limited.

Quote:
4:24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
I'm pretty sure you can only kill someone once.

Where was gunderscored throughout all of this? Doesn't seem to care really. Cain is building a civilisation not being "a fugitive and a vagabond" as gunderscored promised/threatened.

Quote:
4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
It's about time. Cain has a city and a whole soap opera going on by know. What were they doing? Gathering fig leaves?

Right so Cain is of in the land of Nod building a civilisation but only now do Adam and Eve get around to doing anything. OK now in the land of Adam and Eve we have Adam, Eve and Seth.

Quote:
4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Uhoh. Sounds like another of those "rural" arrangements, if you catch my drift.
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Old 1st November 2016, 08:00 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
<Apparent rule violation redacted> there are many of the Mitsvot that are essential to the faith—there are many that are redundant—there are those that apply only to Jews living in Israel.

All dietary laws, and laws pertaining to sexual immorality are essential to the faith.

Judicial laws are not supported by all, especially the death sentence.
So when the Kingdom of God materialises then much of the Mitsvot will come into effect.
None of that answers my actual question.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Do you follow these? By the logic you've stated on this forum you should.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
17. To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.
18. To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
19. To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
20. To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
21. To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.
I asked about specific rules, and you replied with generalities that do not address the rules I asked about.
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Old 1st November 2016, 08:28 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Your understanding of the vision given to Peter is a sure indication that you know nothing of prophecy. You may know words. But I have knowledge of those words.
Your "knowledge" of "those words" does not appear to encompass their actual meanings; instead, you make free to alter what is written, sacrificing the actual meanings upon the altar of your prejudice, racism, and misogyny.

You have made it clear that, to you, "scripture" means exactly what you want it to mean--no more, no less.

The very model of a modern false prophet...

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I do not misrepresent Jesus in any way—in actual fact I uphold his prophecies—you see Sir the Jews no longer have a Temple, so naturally all laws pertaining to the service of the Temple are redundant.
How long are your tassels?

How broad is the strap of your phylactery?

How many of your shirts are poly-cotton?

Was the leather of your shoes produced according to kosher?

How far did you drive (and how many electric devices did you use) last Sabbath?

When did you celebrate your last jubilee year?

...and so forth...

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The parallel between the Temple service and the purged Church replaces many of the Mitsvot, so now it is to understand which they are.
Right. You get to decide what parts of the Law (the one of which your Jesus was said to be said to have insisted that not one jot nor one tiddle would pass away) you, personally, are not bound by.

No misrepresentation there...

(BTW: Your "infallibility" and your grammar seem to be at odds, and it is compromising your comprehensibility.)
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Old 1st November 2016, 08:33 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh come on PB. Genesis is utterly borked beyond belief.


So now we have Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel in that order.

gunderscored hates vegetarians.

Cain has a fit of religious jealousy and murders his younger brother because gunderscored made a dick move. Now we are down to Adam, Eve and Cain.

Odd that gunderscored seems to have been unaware of these doings, isn't it?
Still only Adam, Eve and Cain.

gunderscored tells a huge lie. just a few verses later, Cain is settling down, marrying, building a city and populating it with his own clan.

Wait, what? There are still only two other people so far who could possibly find Cain and do anything to him, Adam and Eve, his own parents.

Where did she come from.

And welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 3

Okay. Now we have Cain, Cains squeeze, Enoch, Irad, Mehujael, Methusael and Lamech. Enoch, Irad, Mehujael and Methusael must have been knocking up somebody and there is only one available female. Sounds a bit of a rural arrangement if you catch my drift.

Let us be generous and assume they married some women who came from somewhere. In the land of Nod where Cain is building a city we now have Cain, Mrs. Cain, Enoch, Mrs. Enoch, Irad, Mrs. Irad, Mehujael, Mrs. Mehujael, Methusael, and Mrs. Methusael. Oh and Lamech. More about him shortly.

Welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 11.

Welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 13 all of a sudden. Home of polygamy and adultery too.

Welcome to the City of Enoch, Population: 17. Home of polygamy and adultery. Bet Namaah will be having a busy and complicated romantic life all of a sudden.

Welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 16. Home of polygamy and adultery and murder. Who did Lamech kill? The possibilities are very limited.

I'm pretty sure you can only kill someone once.

Where was gunderscored throughout all of this? Doesn't seem to care really. Cain is building a civilisation not being "a fugitive and a vagabond" as gunderscored promised/threatened.

It's about time. Cain has a city and a whole soap opera going on by know. What were they doing? Gathering fig leaves?

Right so Cain is of in the land of Nod building a civilisation but only now do Adam and Eve get around to doing anything. OK now in the land of Adam and Eve we have Adam, Eve and Seth.

Uhoh. Sounds like another of those "rural" arrangements, if you catch my drift.
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Old 1st November 2016, 08:44 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
(BTW: Your "infallibility" and your grammar seem to be at odds, and it is compromising your comprehensibility.)
Confused and inconsistent ideas cannot be improved by better clarity in stating them.

In the previous thread, Paul mocked Orthodox Jews for their appearance. I came away from that portion of the thread with the impression that Paul was simply unaware of the grooming and clothing laws in the Old Testament. I suspect he may still be ignorant of the Biblical foundation of the distinctive dress and hairstyle of an Orthodox Jew.

The result is that the 613 Mitzvot is essentially a stockpile of "got-ya" questions for Paul. Having declared assessing them to be "futile" despite the importance he places upon them, he's painted himself into the proverbial corner. There are a number of laws he clearly does not follow that he has no real excuse for ignoring. This makes him, in a Biblical sense, the lukewarm Christian, neither hot nor cold, neither Gentile nor Jew, that the apostles said would be spit out by God.

The sad thing is, I gave him an opportunity to avoid this problem while elaborating on his theology by offering to go through the list with him in another tread. If he'd gone through those laws with us when I started the thread, he could have ironed out a lot of inconsistencies in his theology without us being the wiser.

And then there's this absurd claim of infallibility. That's just a dumb claim to make in any debate. I means he has to defend any mistake he makes, and he makes a lot, to the bitter end.
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Old 1st November 2016, 08:50 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Your "knowledge" of "those words" does not appear to encompass their actual meanings; instead, you make free to alter what is written, sacrificing the actual meanings upon the altar of your prejudice, racism, and misogyny.

You have made it clear that, to you, "scripture" means exactly what you want it to mean--no more, no less.

The very model of a modern false prophet...



How long are your tassels?

How broad is the strap of your phylactery?

How many of your shirts are poly-cotton?

How far did you drive (and how many electric devices did you use) last Sabbath?

When did you celebrate your last jubilee year?

...and so forth...



Right. You get to decide what parts of the Law (the one of which your Jesus was said to be said to have insisted that not one jot nor one tiddle would pass away) you, personally, are not bound by.

No misrepresentation there...

(BTW: Your "infallibility" and your grammar seem to be at odds, and it is compromising your comprehensibility.)
I will try and improve my grammar.

My knowledge of the will of the Creator is very good—the inauguration of the Kingdom of God is the pivotal essence.

Faith is not external, but is inward, so the display of phylacteries does not have an aspect in faith.

Rom 2:28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

Rom 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

So the same applies to those who have faith in Jesus as the Messiah.

But you with your lack of knowledge could not possibly understand such insight.
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Old 1st November 2016, 08:51 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh come on PB. Genesis is utterly borked beyond belief.


So now we have Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel in that order.

gunderscored hates vegetarians.

Cain has a fit of religious jealousy and murders his younger brother because gunderscored made a dick move. Now we are down to Adam, Eve and Cain.

Odd that gunderscored seems to have been unaware of these doings, isn't it?
Still only Adam, Eve and Cain.

gunderscored tells a huge lie. just a few verses later, Cain is settling down, marrying, building a city and populating it with his own clan.

Wait, what? There are still only two other people so far who could possibly find Cain and do anything to him, Adam and Eve, his own parents.

Where did she come from.

And welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 3

Okay. Now we have Cain, Cains squeeze, Enoch, Irad, Mehujael, Methusael and Lamech. Enoch, Irad, Mehujael and Methusael must have been knocking up somebody and there is only one available female. Sounds a bit of a rural arrangement if you catch my drift.

Let us be generous and assume they married some women who came from somewhere. In the land of Nod where Cain is building a city we now have Cain, Mrs. Cain, Enoch, Mrs. Enoch, Irad, Mrs. Irad, Mehujael, Mrs. Mehujael, Methusael, and Mrs. Methusael. Oh and Lamech. More about him shortly.

Welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 11.

Welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 13 all of a sudden. Home of polygamy and adultery too.

Welcome to the City of Enoch, Population: 17. Home of polygamy and adultery. Bet Namaah will be having a busy and complicated romantic life all of a sudden.

Welcome to the city of Enoch, Population: 16. Home of polygamy and adultery and murder. Who did Lamech kill? The possibilities are very limited.

I'm pretty sure you can only kill someone once.

Where was gunderscored throughout all of this? Doesn't seem to care really. Cain is building a civilisation not being "a fugitive and a vagabond" as gunderscored promised/threatened.

It's about time. Cain has a city and a whole soap opera going on by know. What were they doing? Gathering fig leaves?

Right so Cain is of in the land of Nod building a civilisation but only now do Adam and Eve get around to doing anything. OK now in the land of Adam and Eve we have Adam, Eve and Seth.

Uhoh. Sounds like another of those "rural" arrangements, if you catch my drift.
Allow me to explain:

Clearly, the women were born well before Cain killed Able. They just were't discussed in the Cain and Able story until the end for the same reason the women are rarely mentioned in the genealogies. Misogyny.

All the rest can be explained in two words: Incestuous polyamory.

Clearly, monogamy wasn't really a "thing" until much later.
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Old 1st November 2016, 09:07 AM   #59
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Posted By:Agatha
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Old 1st November 2016, 09:16 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh come on PB. Genesis is utterly borked beyond belief.

<snip for brevity>
So let's move along to Gen: 5, shall we?

Quote:
5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Wild unevidenced claim.

Quote:
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Adam and Eve were apparently two gay men both named Adam. How interesting.

Quote:
5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
Ah. Seth from chapter 4 who apparently had sex with his own mother.

Quote:
5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
But they cannot be the source of the wives of Cain and his progeny. By the time Seth was born, Cain already had a burgeoning city, clan, culture and civilisation. Adam's claimed daughters came after Seth. Possibly also in the biblical sense given previous events.

The remainder of chapter 5 is a drone of endless begats and improbable claims of longevity with two interesting exceptions

Quote:
5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
The implication being that Enoch disappeared off into heaven with gunderscored. Strange then that the book of Enoch is not included, no? Why not? After all, the bible claims Enoch was so holy that he didn't actually die but "walked with gunderscored" and was "taken by him" which, given the previous stuff, might also be meant in the biblical sense. gunderscored is into that apparently. gunderscored had a habit of displaying his nether parts to other blokes.

Second
Quote:
5:26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Again with Lamech the polygamist. Could it be one and the same Lamech from chapter 4?

What do we know? The father of C4 Lamech was Methusael. The father of C5 Lamech was Methusela. Coincidence? I think not.

C4 Lamech took two wives. Where did they originate? C5 Lamech provides the answer. Lamech took those wives from the line of Seth. Moar incest. Added bonus, Lamech has now ingratiated himself back into gunderscored's favoured lineage thus avoiding the curse laid upon Cain that he would ever be a vagabond and a fugitive. Oh, wait, gunderscored failed at that too. And gunderscored is to useless to notice Lamech getting the camel's nose under the tent either.
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Old 1st November 2016, 09:30 AM   #61
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Paul,

These laws, among many others, pose a very real challenge to your stated theology:

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Do you follow these? By the logic you've stated on this forum you should.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
17. To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.
18. To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
19. To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
20. To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
21. To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.
You do not follow them and you refuse to explain why. This doesn't merely challenge your claims of divine inspiration, it shatters them to atoms. Running from these questions does not make you look decisive or strong. It does not make the laws go away. It does not make the absurdity of insisting the Mitzvot are important while refusing to discuss them go away.

Notice how I struck out the law on circumcision. That is because you HAVE addressed it with your quotes about spiritual circumcision. You've made it clear you believe faith in Christ achieves the same spiritual ends as physical circumcision.
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:13 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Paul,

These laws, among many others, pose a very real challenge to your stated theology:



You do not follow them and you refuse to explain why. This doesn't merely challenge your claims of divine inspiration, it shatters them to atoms. Running from these questions does not make you look decisive or strong. It does not make the laws go away. It does not make the absurdity of insisting the Mitzvot are important while refusing to discuss them go away.

Notice how I struck out the law on circumcision. That is because you HAVE addressed it with your quotes about spiritual circumcision. You've made it clear you believe faith in Christ achieves the same spiritual ends as physical circumcision.
When directing a person in the path of repentance these law have no application to the faith.
As I have highlighted, the marital condition must first be addressed---there after the Covenant will apply, then in the event that a person complies further stipulations are presented.

The dietary laws and the abstention of sexual immorality is presented, the elementary laws, do not lie, do not steal are applied. There is a dress code that is also applicable.

The law of the land is to be respected.
So the Mitsvot referring to morality is as I have said
Edited by Agatha:  Edited breach of rule 0 and rule 12
is what is applied.

When the Kingdom of God is established then there will be a consideration of what Mitsvot will apply—but the Temple and the priestly duties that accompany this will be abolished as Jesus will be on earth.

So it is of no value to introduce this topic here, because there is a one that is already open
Edited by Agatha:  Edited further rule breach


So stick to the topic of the END times.
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:18 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
So let's move along to Gen: 5, shall we?

Wild unevidenced claim.

Adam and Eve were apparently two gay men both named Adam. How interesting.

Ah. Seth from chapter 4 who apparently had sex with his own mother.

But they cannot be the source of the wives of Cain and his progeny. By the time Seth was born, Cain already had a burgeoning city, clan, culture and civilisation. Adam's claimed daughters came after Seth. Possibly also in the biblical sense given previous events.

The remainder of chapter 5 is a drone of endless begats and improbable claims of longevity with two interesting exceptions

The implication being that Enoch disappeared off into heaven with gunderscored. Strange then that the book of Enoch is not included, no? Why not? After all, the bible claims Enoch was so holy that he didn't actually die but "walked with gunderscored" and was "taken by him" which, given the previous stuff, might also be meant in the biblical sense. gunderscored is into that apparently. gunderscored had a habit of displaying his nether parts to other blokes.

Second
Again with Lamech the polygamist. Could it be one and the same Lamech from chapter 4?

What do we know? The father of C4 Lamech was Methusael. The father of C5 Lamech was Methusela. Coincidence? I think not.

C4 Lamech took two wives. Where did they originate? C5 Lamech provides the answer. Lamech took those wives from the line of Seth. Moar incest. Added bonus, Lamech has now ingratiated himself back into gunderscored's favoured lineage thus avoiding the curse laid upon Cain that he would ever be a vagabond and a fugitive. Oh, wait, gunderscored failed at that too. And gunderscored is to useless to notice Lamech getting the camel's nose under the tent either.
What Sir has this to do with the END times—Adam and his wife provided the offspring from which we all spring off?
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:19 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I will try and improve my grammar.
Why would an "infallible" "prophet" with "perfect understanding" have to "try"?

I am as subject to typos as anyone, but then, I am not claiming that some 'god' made me "infallible". Seriously? Grammar and lexicon are the least of your worries...

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
My knowledge of the will of the Creator is very good—the inauguration of the Kingdom of God is the pivotal essence.
And yet, you make free to alter the "words" of your "creator", wholesale, at your whim.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Faith is not external, but is inward, so the display of phylacteries does not have an aspect in faith.

Rom 2:28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

Rom 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

So the same applies to those who have faith in Jesus as the Messiah.

But you with your lack of knowledge could not possibly understand such insight.
...in other words, this is another of the Mitzvot that you, on your own authority, choose to disregard out of convenience; even though your own Jesus is said to be said to have insisted that none of the Law would pass away.

Right. You don't contradict the things Jesus is said to be said to have said at all, do you?

Odd kind of "infallibility" and"perfect understanding". I commend you to Matt. 23:23 ff.
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:21 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
When the Kingdom of God is established then there will be a consideration of what Mitsvot will apply—but the Temple and the priestly duties that accompany this will be abolished as Jesus will be on earth.

So stick to the topic of the END times.
Speaking of the END times.......
Do you believe the Book of Ezekiel speaks about the END times?

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Old 1st November 2016, 10:38 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Speaking of the END times.......
Do you believe the Book of Ezekiel speaks about the END times?
It depends on what you consider to be the END times—Ezekiel surely speaks of things that will occur, which have not yet happened.
But I see the End times when YHVH will be acknowledged as the only God and Creator.
This is what I envisage---

Eze 36:24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Eze 36:28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Eze 36:29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you.
Eze 36:30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.
Eze 36:31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices.


Isa_45:23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

So there are still a lot of outstanding prophecies that needs to be fulfilled.
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:41 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It depends on what you consider to be the END times—Ezekiel surely speaks of things that will occur, which have not yet happened.
But I see the End times when YHVH will be acknowledged as the only God and Creator.
This is what I envisage---

Eze 36:24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Eze 36:28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Eze 36:29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you.
Eze 36:30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.
Eze 36:31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices.


Isa_45:23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

So there are still a lot of outstanding prophecies that needs to be fulfilled.
Do you believe the Third Temple will be rebuilt as it says in the Book of Ezekiel?
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:43 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
What Sir has this to do with the END times—Adam and his wife provided the offspring from which we all spring off?
In order to CARE what the Bible says about the End Times, we must first establish if the Bible is even worth paying attention to. Therefore, before discussing the end we must first confirm the beginning.
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:53 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Why would an "infallible" "prophet" with "perfect understanding" have to "try"?

I am as subject to typos as anyone, but then, I am not claiming that some 'god' made me "infallible". Seriously? Grammar and lexicon are the least of your worries...



And yet, you make free to alter the "words" of your "creator", wholesale, at your whim.



...in other words, this is another of the Mitzvot that you, on your own authority, choose to disregard out of convenience; even though your own Jesus is said to be said to have insisted that none of the Law would pass away.

Right. You don't contradict the things Jesus is said to be said to have said at all, do you?

Odd kind of "infallibility" and"perfect understanding". I commend you to Matt. 23:23 ff.
Jesus said none of the laws will disappear—but the Temple has, the sacrifices for sin have.
Laws that apply to the people of Israel can be applied to Israel only—judicial laws pertaining to justice are applicable, but are contrary to laws in sovereign countries, like the death penalty.

All the laws have an application if YHVH were in control—but seasons differ in lands and the time zones are different—so what would you do about the Sabbath, the times zone in Israel differs from many other place.

The agricultural laws have a benefit—must people go to Israel to commemorate the feast three times a year—Israel could not accommodate all the people.

How do you want me to apply Matthew 23:23?
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:54 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The dietary laws and the abstention of sexual immorality is presented, the elementary laws, do not lie, do not steal are applied. There is a dress code that is also applicable.
So, you admit that the dress code needs to be adhered to, but still refuse to discuss if you personally adhere to it.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Do you follow these? By the logic you've stated on this forum you should.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
17. To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.
18. To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
19. To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
20. To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
21. To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.
Do YOU follow the dress code you admit is important?

If not, why not?

You seem to be implying that the dress code won't be necessary until people are following your particular interpretation of who they can and cannot have sex with. If that's the case, why do you insist the kosher laws need to be followed now?

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So stick to the topic of the END times.
Sorry, but the this tread strayed off the topic of the End times WAAAY to long ago to put that genie back in the bottle.
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:55 AM   #71
Paul Bethke
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
In order to CARE what the Bible says about the End Times, we must first establish if the Bible is even worth paying attention to. Therefore, before discussing the end we must first confirm the beginning.
That Sir is the crux of the matter—so how would that be done in your view?
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Old 1st November 2016, 10:59 AM   #72
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
so what would you do about the Sabbath, the times zone in Israel differs from many other place.
Sabbath laws are based upon local sundown and sunrise, not Jerusalem time. There are Jews all over the world who have figured out how to apply laws based upon local sunrise and sunset without reference to Jerusalem.

What exactly do you think is going on that you think time zone differences can make it difficult to observe the Sabbath?
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Old 1st November 2016, 11:02 AM   #73
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
That Sir is the crux of the matter—so how would that be done in your view?
Testing the accuracy of the claims is a good start. For example, modern archaeology and geology proves that the Genesis creation and flood accounts are pure fiction.
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Old 1st November 2016, 11:12 AM   #74
Paul Bethke
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
So, you admit that the dress code needs to be adhered to, but still refuse to discuss if you personally adhere to it.
A dress code as stipulated—men to have short neat haircuts and trimmed beards.
Woman to dress modestly.
Removal of tattoos.

Quote:
Do YOU follow the dress code you admit is important?
If not, why not?
I follow them.

Quote:
You seem to be implying that the dress code won't be necessary until people are following your particular interpretation of who they can and cannot have sex with. If that's the case, why do you insist the kosher laws need to be followed now?
Kosher laws are part of the requirement to enter into the faith. It is not my interpretations but that which is decreed by YHVH.
Sex is between a man and a woman, divorce and remarriage is adultery.

And as I have stated on so many occasions –a man must marry a virgin, and a virgin must stay with the man who took her virginity—excluding rape.

Quote:
Sorry, but the this tread strayed off the topic of the End times WAAAY to long ago to put that genie back in the bottle.
The purged Church will apply the terms for repentance, and when these terms are accepted they will be baptised. So the END times will usher in the beginning.
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Old 1st November 2016, 11:13 AM   #75
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So it is of no value to introduce this topic here, because there is a one that is already open
Edited by Agatha:  Removed rule breach in quote
Dude, are you TRYING to get this thread put on moderation by breaking the forum rules? Have you BEEN in a thread that's been on moderation on this forum? I have, and getting this thread put on moderation won't go well for you, but it'll be great for the rest of us. It'll mean everyone has a day or two to reply to every one of our comments before any of your responses show up. The replies will end up much more carefully researched and thought out. It will also mean your every reply will be picked over in MUCH greater detail. You can take a look at Homosexuality, Adoption and Gay Marriage (Split from LDS II) and its parent threads for some examples of what happens.

Last edited by Agatha; 1st November 2016 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 1st November 2016, 11:14 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Testing the accuracy of the claims is a good start. For example, modern archaeology and geology proves that the Genesis creation and flood accounts are pure fiction.
OK so you win--I have in mind a demonstration with regards to the created things.
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Old 1st November 2016, 11:20 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
A dress code as stipulated—men to have short neat haircuts and trimmed beards.
Woman to dress modestly.
Removal of tattoos.
Seriously?

I've repeatedly asked you about specific clothing laws and you're STILL not aware that they exist?

Quote:
18. To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
19. To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
20. To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
What's your criteria for deciding that the above laws are apparently AOK to ignore?

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I follow them.
No you don't, because you are obviously unaware of most of them.

How about a Mezuzah? Got any of those on your doors?

Quote:
21. To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuzah.
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Old 1st November 2016, 11:22 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
OK so you win--I have in mind a demonstration with regards to the created things.
Is it any better than your divinely withered grass or supernaturally blinded skeptics?
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Old 1st November 2016, 11:28 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
That Sir is the crux of the matter—so how would that be done in your view?

The Bible would need to be reconciled with geology, biology, astronomy, archeology and history.
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Old 1st November 2016, 11:28 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
A dress code as stipulated—men to have short neat haircuts and trimmed beards.
Woman to dress modestly.
Removal of tattoos.

I follow them.



Kosher laws are part of the requirement to enter into the faith. It is not my interpretations but that which is decreed by YHVH.
Sex is between a man and a woman, divorce and remarriage is adultery.

And as I have stated on so many occasions –a man must marry a virgin, and a virgin must stay with the man who took her virginity—excluding rape.



The purged Church will apply the terms for repentance, and when these terms are accepted they will be baptised. So the END times will usher in the beginning.
Must then a man remain with a woman who took his virginity? Why are you unable to answer this

Must a man remain with a man who took his virginity? Must a woman remain with a woman who took her virginity?

Can a man who is not a virgin marry any woman? One who is a virgin? One who is not?

Can a woman who is not a virgin marry any man? One who is a virgin? One who is not?

What happens if a man who is a virgin rapes a woman who is not a virgin? Are they compelled to marry forever without recourse to divorce? What if the man screams and the woman does not because she is the rapist and he is the victim? How about the reverse?

You really have not thought this out have you?

Would you like to move on to the nonsense of Gen: 6 yet?
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