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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:02 AM   #161
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
If the man forced the girl it would be rape---if the girl was willing, then it would not be rape.
So it shows that the girl was willing--but the father may not approve, so he retained the right to prevent the contract being drawn up.
That is exceptionally tortured logic not supported by the text you are quoting.

The passage creates a loophole for men who rape virgins who are not betrothed. What part of that are you having trouble understanding?


https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-me...onomy-22-28-29
Quote:
This is…interesting…either we have to say that 22:28–29 is talking about the penalty for rape (as the pattern has been set by 23–27)…or the Bible has set forth no penalty whatsoever for raping a woman who isn’t engaged.

I’m not sure which is worse, but I’m inclined to say, due to the established pattern, 22:28–29 is discussing the penalty for rape. I feel very confident in making that determination.

https://gotquestions.org/Deuteronomy...ry-rapist.html
Quote:
Together, these passages clearly state that if a man has sex with a virgin who is not betrothed (regardless of whether or not it was rape or consensual) he is obliged to marry her. He should have sought her father's permission first, negotiated a bride-price, and taken her as his wife. Because he did not, he is punished for this—he now must pay up (he can't opt out any more) and marry her (which could be a major punishment in itself if this was a foolish, spur-of-the-moment act and she really wasn't the right woman for him!).

Also note that "he may not divorce her all his days" – this initially doesn't seem significant but is actually a major punishment. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (restated more clearly in Matthew 5:32 and 19:9) allowed for divorce, but only in the case of sexual immorality (the word "uncleanness" refers to this and was translated as such in the LXX). This man now may not divorce his wife even for this reason, but is obliged to continue to support her all his life whatever she does.

http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/h...ry-her-rapist/
Quote:
First, the Mosaic Law is hardly about letting a rapist off easy. The consequence for raping a woman engaged to be married was stoning (Deuteronomy 22:25). If the woman was not engaged, the rapist was spared for the sake of the woman’s security. Having lost her virginity, she would have been deemed undesirable for marriage—and in the culture of the day, a woman without a father or husband to provide for her would be subject to a life of abject poverty, destitution, and social ostracism. As such, the rapist was compelled to provide for the rape victim for as long as he lived. Thus, far from barbaric, the law was a cultural means of protection and provision.

Paul,

If Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not about rape, then please cite chapter and verse the Biblical punishment for raping a virgin who is not betrothed.

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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:03 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Deuteronomy 22:28 in multiple translations:

http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-28.htm



Paul is arguing that "lay hold on her" is the same as consent without parental approval, even though other translations render it as "raped."

While shakab does not ALWAYS refer to rape, the greater context of the verse makes it clear what is being discussed:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...Deuteronomy+22



Notice how a man who rapes a woman who is betrothed is put to death. Exceptions are made for the victim if she could have screamed out for help. The verse that Paul Bethke insists is NOT about rape comes immediately after discussion of rape and creates an exception for the rape of a woman who is NOT betrothed.

Now, I will point out that modern apologists argue that this passages does not condone rape, but offers a regrettable legal recourse for cases where it happens. Paul Bethke is, as far as I can tell, alone in the world in is peculiar interpretation of the passage.
No I use common sense--if the girl told her father she was raped--then the man would be stoned--in this case it is clear that it is consensual. The same applies in the law today!
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:04 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Zivan, Are you aware of any archeological evidence, or other historical evidence that would substantiate the Conquest of Canaan stories? Apparently, the

We've pointed the lack of substantiation to Paul before, but apparently he needs to be told again by someone different.
You (and other scholars) are correct Border Reiver. There is zero evidence, historical or archeological of the "Conquest of Canaan" stories. No "Exodus", no "conquest of Canaan".

The ancient Israelites were just one tribal group that emerged after the ending of the Canaanite city-state system.

Here is a TV documentary (proving there was no "conquest") for anyone with reading comprehension problems. (And entertaining for anyone who already knows the truth).

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient...d-secrets.html
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:07 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
If the man forced the girl it would be rape---if the girl was willing, then it would not be rape.
So it shows that the girl was willing--but the father may not approve, so he retained the right to prevent the contract being drawn up.
What shows that the girl was willing? The word used to describe the physical contact is the same word used (as we have seen) to describe a person being seized to be taken to a place of execution. So what evidence have you found that "shows that the girl was willing"? The evidence of the text indicates the very opposite.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:12 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
If the man forced the girl it would be rape---if the girl was willing, then it would not be rape.
So it shows that the girl was willing--but the father may not approve, so he retained the right to prevent the contract being drawn up.
This is the problem with needing the text to "mean" something other than what it actually says...
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:14 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
If the man forced the girl it would be rape---if the girl was willing, then it would not be rape.
So it shows that the girl was willing--but the father may not approve, so he retained the right to prevent the contract being drawn up.
What "shows" that the girl was willing? There is NOTHING IN THE TEXT to indicate that. You've been corrected many times on this. The rapist can avoid execution by essentially buying his victim from her father.

ETA: I suspect that this exeption was added to the law later on in order to allow more prominent, and thus richer, members of the society to escape death by taking away the problem (i.e. wiping clean the "dishonor" to the father and his family). What a barbaric and antiquated way of doing things.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:15 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
That is exceptionally tortured logic not supported by the text you are quoting.

The passage creates a loophole for men who rape virgins who are not betrothed. What part of that are you having trouble understanding?
What is there to understand, the girl consented. Deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

You see they are discovered, it infers that it was consensual.
Marriage was an important factor in Israel—if they were not discovered, the girl at a latter stage could have been given to another man.

In that case, there would be this situation--Deu 22:20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found,

So this being the case the man must marry the girl. Elementary.
You are trying to make the laws of Moses obnoxious.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:16 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
No I use common sense--if the girl told her father she was raped--then the man would be stoned--in this case it is clear that it is consensual. The same applies in the law today!
Right. You use "common sense" to pretend that the text says what you wish it said, rather that what the words actually mean...and shop around for an interpretation that you can pretend supports your predetermined conclusion.

Now, about that apology...
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:16 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
What is there to understand, the girl consented. Deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

You see they are discovered, it infers that it was consensual.
Marriage was an important factor in Israel—if they were not discovered, the girl at a latter stage could have been given to another man.

In that case, there would be this situation--Deu 22:20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found,

So this being the case the man must marry the girl. Elementary.
You are trying to make the laws of Moses obnoxious.
Paul,

If Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not about rape, then please cite chapter and verse the Biblical punishment for raping a virgin who is not betrothed.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:16 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
What is there to understand, the girl consented. Deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

You see they are discovered, it infers that it was consensual.
What an idiotic argument. You can be discovered doing something against your will, can't you?
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:19 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
This is the problem with needing the text to meansomething other than what it actually says...
Well you see this is where a person investigates until the truth is discovered---taking all situation into account. There is also common sense.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:20 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What an idiotic argument. You can be discovered doing something against your will, can't you?
Well if it was against the girls will it would be rape, and the rapist must die.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:21 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well you see this is where a person investigates until the truth is discovered
That's a very self-flattering version of what Slowvehicle wrote.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:22 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well if it was against the girls will it would be rape, and the rapist must die.
EXCEPT if he pays the father to marry his daughter. What part of that escapes your understanding, Paul?
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:26 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well you see this is where a person investigates until the truth is discovered---taking all situation into account. There is also common sense.
Interesting claim, that "common sense" will let you pretend that a passage "means" something other than (and in direct contradiction to) what the words of the text (a text you, personally, cannot read) actually say.

You're twisting your "scriptures" to your opinions, rather than building your opinions upon your "scriptures".

(...and you keep avoiding questions...)
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:27 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
There is also common sense.
No, that doesn't give you the relevant and needful information you would have gleaned from knowing the languages in which the text was actually written and the historical and cultural context from which it arose. "Common sense" in this context is no more informative than wishful and biased guesswork.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:28 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
EXCEPT if he pays the father to marry his daughter. What part of that escapes your understanding, Paul?
I don't think it does. He's just repeating the same lame claim without any support in the hope we give up on the topic and don't circle back to his claming there was never a Second Temple.

Then again, he could be trying to provoke responses he can cherry pick to claim atheists are rape apologists.

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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:30 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well you see this is where a person investigates until the truth is discovered---taking all situation into account. There is also common sense.
...Says the guy whose knowledge of the Bible is so infallible he apparently thought Jesus went to Solomon's Temple.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:32 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well if it was against the girls will it would be rape, and the rapist must die.
Chapter and verse. Were is it stated that a man who rapes a virgin who is not betrothed must die?

The punishment is given for men who rape a betrothed woman. If the verse in question isn't about raping an unbetrothed virgin, then where IS the verse for what happens in tat situation?
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:37 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Paul,

If Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not about rape, then please cite chapter and verse the Biblical punishment for raping a virgin who is not betrothed.
Deu 22:25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

Deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

So this seems to be the answer—
Quote:
lay hold on her] Not the same vb as in Deuteronomy 22:25, usually explained as rape, but this is not certain. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/deuteronomy/22-28.htm
So there seems to be no certainty—so in that case we use common sense in comparing other Scriptures.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:37 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
You (and other scholars) are correct Border Reiver. There is zero evidence, historical or archeological of the "Conquest of Canaan" stories. No "Exodus", no "conquest of Canaan".

The ancient Israelites were just one tribal group that emerged after the ending of the Canaanite city-state system.

Here is a TV documentary (proving there was no "conquest") for anyone with reading comprehension problems. (And entertaining for anyone who already knows the truth).

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient...d-secrets.html
thank you for the confirmation. And the link to the Documentary

For the record, I do not consider myself a scholar, just a paralegal and part-time gunner with a long term interest in history.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:38 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
...Says the guy whose knowledge of the Bible is so infallible he apparently thought Jesus went to Solomon's Temple.
Interesting that Paul B is not responding to his ignorance of the Temple issue.....
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:47 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Deu 22:25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

Deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
Do you realize you just quoted a different translation of Deuteronomy 22:28 in order to prove it IS about rape when you have spent the last several posts arguing it is NOT about rape?

You just conceded the argument.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Interesting that Paul B is not responding to his ignorance of the Temple issue.....
Some errors even Paul Bethk can't spin.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:51 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Deu 22:25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

Deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

So this seems to be the answer—

So there seems to be no certainty—so in that case we use common sense in comparing other Scriptures.
"No certainty"? More like, you don't like the obvious conclusion.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:54 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
"No certainty"? More like, you don't like the obvious conclusion.


Check out my post above. He's conceded the point to us and he didn't realize he was doing it.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 08:58 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
thank you for the confirmation. And the link to the Documentary
You are welcome. The first ~15 minutes of the documentary appears as if it is quoting the bible as fact, but after that they begin telling the scientific facts.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Some errors even Paul Bethk can't spin.
But it will be entertaining if he tries.........
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:05 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Check out my post above. He's conceded the point to us and he didn't realize he was doing it.
Yes, I noticed that too. Found it weird that he'd say it's rape in order to make a completely different point.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:07 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
What is there to understand, the girl consented. Deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

You see they are discovered, it infers that it was consensual.
You're saying that the meaning of the word "discover" makes it impossible by definition to "discover" one person abusing another person? That is simply absurd. As is well known, moreover, the English word "discover" has changed its meaning quite radically over the centuries. It previously meant "reveal" or "uncover" as we would now say.

So what should we do? I'm going to see what word was used in Hebrew for this, and look at the contexts of its other occurrences, if any, in the Tanakh. I'll use my normal sources. Off we go.

In Strong it's 4672 matsa: to attain to, find מָצָא. And it occurs no fewer than 455 times in the Tanakh. This looks like the relevant usage:
d. find a condition, find one in a situation; לָהּ בְּתוּלִים ׳וְלֹא מ Deuteronomy 22:14 compare Deuteronomy 22:17; Deuteronomy 24:1; אֶתמֶֿלָךְ ֗֗֗ נִלְחָם׳וַיִּמ 2 Kings 19:8 and he found the king of Assyria warring against Lachish = Isaiah 37:8; אֶתלְֿבָבוֺ נֶאֱמָן ׳וּמ Nehemiah 9:8; כָּתוּב בספר ׳מ Nehemiah 7:5; Nehemiah 8:14; especially late., 1 Chronicles 20:2; 2Chronicles 25:5; Daniel 1:20; Daniel 7:26.
"Find one in a situation". That looks about right. Does the "situation" have to be consensual? I think not, because - look, it is used to refer to someone finding a king at war against a city! Just so you'll know: the war between Assyria and the city of Lachish was not a consensual affair.
701 BCE, during the revolt of king Hezekiah against Assyria, it was besieged and captured by Sennacherib despite the defenders' determined resistance.
If a war can be "discovered", a rape can be "discovered", even if the victim is putting up "determined resistance". Do you not agree? Why did you tell me that the wording of the verse implies consent? You see that five minutes on the internet proves beyond doubt that it does not. You and I are not scholars of the languages of the scriptures, which makes it all the more necessary for us to check things as much as possible before making inferences or suppositions on the basis of translated versions of the texts.

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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:25 AM   #189
Paul Bethke
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Interesting that Paul B is not responding to his ignorance of the Temple issue.....
The Temple history is available on Google, so why must I refer to that when everyone can do that.
So there is Solomon’s Temple and Zerubbabel’s Temple, and Herod’s temple.

So is there a fourth Temple?
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:26 AM   #190
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, I noticed that too. Found it weird that he'd say it's rape in order to make a completely different point.
I won't speculate on what it could mean.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You're saying that the meaning of the word "discover" makes it impossible by definition to "discover" one person abusing another person? That is simply absurd.
Is it?

Is it REALLY?

Let's do a quick Google News search to find out!

Police discover SC sex offender living with minors in Decatur

Police Discover Tragic Note at Home Where Family of Five Is Found Dead

Well this research has gotten dark fast.

Kim Kardashian robbery clue: Police discover suspects DNA on dropped gemstone

Police discover man's body in Quinnipiac River

Police discover shooting victim while on patrol

Yeah, I guess your right. Claiming that the word "discover" implies consent is a really, REALLY dumb argument to make.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:33 AM   #191
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The Temple history is available on Google, so why must I refer to that when everyone can do that.
So there is Solomon’s Temple and Zerubbabel’s Temple, and Herod’s temple.

So is there a fourth Temple?
Zerubbabel’s Temple IS Herod's temple. It was a massive refurbishment and expansion but not another temple.

I'm not really sure how you managed to find the names "Zerubbabel’s Temple" and "Herod's Temple" and NOT know that they were the same temple, the Second Temple, before and after a major renovation. Did you not notice they were both referred to as "the Second Temple" and think, "Hey, I should read some more to figure out why?"

Last edited by halleyscomet; 2nd November 2016 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:37 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Zerubbabel’s Temple IS Herod's temple. Specifically Herod rebuilt Zerubbabel’s Temple. This was a massive refurbishment and expansion but not another temple.
Hell, I know that because I checked it out during my lunch break. Paul, come on!
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:37 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Zerubbabel’s Temple IS Herod's temple. Specifically Herod rebuilt Zerubbabel’s Temple. This was a massive refurbishment and expansion but not another temple.
Funny, that an "infallible" "prophet" with "perfect understanding" would not know that (to say nothing of missing the whole "2nd Temple" in the first place).

I will not be surprised if Mr. Bethke claims to have been "just testing" us.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:48 AM   #194
Paul Bethke
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You're saying that the meaning of the word "discover" makes it impossible by definition to "discover" one person abusing another person? That is simply absurd. As is well known, moreover, the English word "discover" has changed its meaning quite radically over the centuries. It previously meant "reveal" or "uncover" as we would now say.

So what should we do? I'm going to see what word was used in Hebrew for this, and look at the contexts of its other occurrences, if any, in the Tanakh. I'll use my normal sources. Off we go.

In Strong it's 4672 matsa: to attain to, find מָצָא. And it occurs no fewer than 455 times in the Tanakh. This looks like the relevant usage:
d. find a condition, find one in a situation; לָהּ בְּתוּלִים ׳וְלֹא מ Deuteronomy 22:14 compare Deuteronomy 22:17; Deuteronomy 24:1; אֶתמֶֿלָךְ ֗֗֗ נִלְחָם׳וַיִּמ 2 Kings 19:8 and he found the king of Assyria warring against Lachish = Isaiah 37:8; אֶתלְֿבָבוֺ נֶאֱמָן ׳וּמ Nehemiah 9:8; כָּתוּב בספר ׳מ Nehemiah 7:5; Nehemiah 8:14; especially late., 1 Chronicles 20:2; 2Chronicles 25:5; Daniel 1:20; Daniel 7:26.
"Find one in a situation". That looks about right. Does the "situation" have to be consensual? I think not, because - look, it is used to refer to someone finding a king at war against a city! Just so you'll know: the war between Assyria and the city of Lachish was not a consensual affair.
701 BCE, during the revolt of king Hezekiah against Assyria, it was besieged and captured by Sennacherib despite the defenders' determined resistance.
If a war can be "discovered", a rape can be "discovered", even if the victim is putting up "determined resistance". Do you not agree? Why did you tell me that the wording of the verse implies consent? You see that five minutes on the internet proves beyond doubt that it does not. You and I are not scholars of the languages of the scriptures, which makes it all the more necessary for us to check things as much as possible before making inferences or suppositions on the basis of translated versions of the texts.
The point that you have ignored is that if it were rape, then the man would be put to death—but this is not an actual case, but what must be taken into account if something of this nature happens in Israel.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:51 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The point that you have ignored is that if it were rape, then the man would be put to death—but this is not an actual case, but what must be taken into account if something of this nature happens in Israel.
Dude, you've already conceded that the verse is about the punishment for raping a virgin who is not betrothed.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Deu 22:25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

Deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
Make up your mind already!
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:51 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Zerubbabel’s Temple IS Herod's temple. It was a massive refurbishment and expansion but not another temple.

I'm not really sure how you managed to find the names "Zerubbabel’s Temple" and "Herod's Temple" and NOT know that they were the same temple, the Second Temple, before and after a major renovation. Did you not notice they were both referred to as "the Second Temple" and think, "Hey, I should read some more to figure out why?"
Not reading for comprehension?
Skimming the material?
Willful disregard for information that doesn't say what he wants it to be?

I mean, let's face it how many other famous buildings change their name after a major renovation (White House)?
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:57 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Funny, that an "infallible" "prophet" with "perfect understanding" would not know that (to say nothing of missing the whole "2nd Temple" in the first place).

I will not be surprised if Mr. Bethke claims to have been "just testing" us.
What is so funny--it is all Google related.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 09:59 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Dude, you've already conceded that the verse is about the punishment for raping a virgin who is not betrothed.



Make up your mind already!
You cannot read--i never said the girl was raped.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 10:01 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Hell, I know that because I checked it out during my lunch break. Paul, come on!
Yes but were not all the Temples built on the same site, not the same building.
That is why the situation in Jerusalem today--the Jews are denied access to the site.
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Old 2nd November 2016, 10:01 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well with reference to the third Temple –how can that be when the second Temple was not built?
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The Temple history is available on Google, so why must I refer to that when everyone can do that.
Because you make stupid, ignorant comments. Why do YOU not research on google?


Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So there is Solomon’s Temple and Zerubbabel’s Temple, and Herod’s temple
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