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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 25th January 2017, 04:07 AM   #41
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Given that us non-Trumpians are constantly told that we can't ever understand what makes Trump voters into Trump voters, I thought this article was interesting. It's about a young Trump voter eloquently explaining why he voted for Trump. Turns out it has to do with him feeling that his community and peers are in dire straits economically, in spite of data showing that reality doesn't support his feelings.

It would seem that alternative reality is pervasive among Trump voters. In light of this, the biggest task for those of us living in the real world will be to bring enough of these people into reality to stop the ongoing madness.
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Old 25th January 2017, 05:32 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It would seem that alternative reality is pervasive among Trump voters.
I think the major problem today is that alternative reality is pervasive for most people, period.
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Old 25th January 2017, 05:34 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I think the major problem today is that alternative reality is pervasive for most people, period.
I don't know about that. The alternative reality that Trump voters live in is identified in the article. I don't know about any other alternative reality pervasive among people.
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Old 25th January 2017, 05:37 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I think the major problem today is that alternative reality is pervasive for most people, period.
Indeed. And in all of human history, also. We have more easy ways to verify whether our perceptions are accurate today than ever before, but they won't help people who would rather believe a story that reinforces their preconceptions than know if it's really true.
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Old 25th January 2017, 05:38 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't know about that. The alternative reality that Trump voters live in is identified in the article. I don't know about any other alternative reality pervasive among people.
Have you ever met deeply religious people? How about Libertarians? Or trickle-down economy proponents?
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Old 25th January 2017, 05:42 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Have you ever met deeply religious people? How about Libertarians? Or trickle-down economy proponents?
Alright, point taken. Although in a venn diagram, I'd wager there's considerable overlap between these groups and Trump voters.

I'm an advocate for reality based thinking. I would oppose alternative realities everywhere they are found (not counting entertainment). I see an identified alternative reality here, and it brings nothing to the discussion to say that there are other alternative realities too.
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Old 25th January 2017, 07:52 AM   #47
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Trump paving the way for a return to the US torturing prisoners at CIA black sites.

Quote:
The Trump administration is preparing a sweeping executive order that would clear the way for the Central Intelligence Agency to reopen overseas “black site” prisons, like those where it detained and tortured terrorism suspects before former President Obama shut them down.

President Trump’s three-page draft order, titled “Detention and Interrogation of Enemy Combatants,” and obtained by The New York Times would also undo many of the other restrictions on handling detainees that Mr. Obama put in place in response to policies of the Bush administration.

If Mr. Trump signs the draft order, he would also revoke Mr. Obama’s directive to give the International Committee of the Red Cross access to all wartime detainees in American custody – another step toward reopening secret prisons outside of the normal wartime rules established by the Geneva Conventions.

And while Mr. Obama tried to close the Guantánamo prison and refused to bring new detainees there, the draft order directs the Pentagon to continue using the facility “for the detention and trial of newly captured” detainees – including not just more suspected members of Al Qaeda or the Taliban, like the 41 remaining detainees, but also Islamic State detainees. It does not address legal problems that might raise.
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Old 25th January 2017, 07:53 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
So that's how he's going to get Hillary. Declare her an enemy combatant.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
So that's how he's going to get Hillary. Declare her an enemy combatant.
Well, she did "fight" him for the Presidency.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:01 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Given that us non-Trumpians are constantly told that we can't ever understand what makes Trump voters into Trump voters, I thought this article was interesting. It's about a young Trump voter eloquently explaining why he voted for Trump. Turns out it has to do with him feeling that his community and peers are in dire straits economically, in spite of data showing that reality doesn't support his feelings.
This is not far from mirroring a story on the forum by ChrisBKRPFY who stated that in Kentucky he saw so many people out of jobs and factories closing down as an explanation for voting Trump, only to be presented with the fact that during the most recent presidency, unemployment had halved in the state. I'm not sure that he ever responded to that. (I have tried to find the posts - will edit if I do.)
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:23 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Given that us non-Trumpians are constantly told that we can't ever understand what makes Trump voters into Trump voters
I don't think that's accurate. I think you are constantly told that belittling and insulting them is not the best way to win the next election.

Oh look, there you go again.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:25 AM   #52
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Garrison Keillor on Trump:
Quote:
Everyone knows that the man is a fabulator, oblivious, trapped in his own terrible needs. Republican, Democrat, libertarian, socialist, white supremacist or sebaceous cyst — everyone knows it. It is up to Republicans to save the country from this man. They elected him, and it is their duty to tie a rope around his ankle.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...=.4a669cb9a072
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:30 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I don't think that's accurate. I think you are constantly told that belittling and insulting them is not the best way to win the next election.

Oh look, there you go again.
I think neither side wants to understand the other, anymore. It's all about the echo chamber.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:31 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I don't think that's accurate. I think you are constantly told that belittling and insulting them is not the best way to win the next election.

Oh look, there you go again.
It's not belittling to describe reality. It's simply describing reality.

And, we have been told that we can't understand over and over again, by such noted philosophers as logger and ChrisBKRPFY.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:34 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I think neither side wants to understand the other, anymore. It's all about the echo chamber.
True. There's polarization and hysteria on both sides.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:36 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
True. There's polarization and hysteria on both sides.
It's really frustrating for those of us trying to stick to the healthy middle: there's little discussion to be had beyond nay-saying, arguments from emotion and accusations and labels.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:36 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
True. There's polarization and hysteria on both sides.
One side is considerably worse. False equvivalences are equally damaging as polarization.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:37 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's not belittling to describe reality. It's simply describing reality.
Scepticism 101: An anecdote is not data, nor can a trend be drawn from just two points... unless its something I feel strongly about.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:39 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Scepticism 101: An anecdote is not data, nor can a trend be drawn from just two points... unless its something I feel strongly about.
True. It's possible that Chris, logger and the person in the article are the only people who can be described this way, and that their impression that many people feel this way is fiction.

Guess the skeptical thing to do is to simply forget about it.
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Old 25th January 2017, 08:51 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
One side is considerably worse. False equvivalences are equally damaging as polarization.
No one said they were equal. We're saying that they are engaging in the same sort of behaviour.
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Old 25th January 2017, 09:22 AM   #61
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And now the Trump White House is publishing its own rave reviews...

Quote:
Praise For President Trump's Bold Action
The President Is “Coming Out As A Winner On Many Issues…” – The Atlantic
ABC News’ Jonathan Karl: “Incredible Pace Of Activity In The Trump White House On Week One…” Karl Tweet: “Incredible pace of activity in the Trump White House on week one - when have we seen a public WH sked packed as yesterday's & today's?” (Twitter.com, 1/24/17)
Fox News’ Sean Hannity: “I Don't Think I've Ever Seen So Much Happen In Such A Short Period Of Time.” (Fox News’ “Hannity,” 1/24/17)
Chicago Tribune Editorial Board: “Trump Could Have Chosen Any Topic To Get His Presidency Rolling. He Picked Jobs. Good.” (Editorial, “What Trump Got Right On Day 1: The Jobs Agenda,” Chicago Tribune, 1/23/17)
Chicago Tribune Headline: “What Trump Got Right On Day 1: The Jobs Agenda” (Chicago Tribune, 1/23/17)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...ps-bold-action
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Old 25th January 2017, 10:24 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Scepticism 101: An anecdote is not data, nor can a trend be drawn from just two points... unless its something I feel strongly about.
An anecdote is data. Not always good data but it is data.
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Old 25th January 2017, 10:35 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Have you ever met deeply religious people? How about Libertarians? Or trickle-down economy proponents?
I think this has a lot to do with it. Add to that being fed a diet of 'government bad, free market perfect' for decades, it's not hard to rile them up with a good con man.

What I find interesting is how so many people are just now figuring out Trump has mental problems. All those people who asserted, when he's elected he'll behave differently, are waking up to the reality, no he is not capable of changing. They had a fantasy that Trump must be a great businessman, look how successful he is.

Pretty sure we can go back and find more than a few posts here in the forum of people saying just that.
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Old 25th January 2017, 10:40 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
And now the Trump White House is publishing its own rave reviews...



https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...ps-bold-action


The man is truly sick.
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Old 25th January 2017, 10:49 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
And now the Trump White House is publishing its own rave reviews...

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...ps-bold-action
Pathetic.
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Old 25th January 2017, 10:50 AM   #66
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It's like the website is now a DVD cover, complete with misleading, out-of-context quotes.
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Old 25th January 2017, 10:57 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
So how long until people abandon ship and move onto saner pastures?
The GOP will let Trump break all government entities, then impeach him. Afterwards, they will say it was all Trump's fault. They will also point out that government programs don't work.
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Old 25th January 2017, 10:57 AM   #68
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This seems reckless. Extremely reckless.

Quote:
Mr. Trump’s wife, Melania, went back to New York on Sunday night with their 10-year-old son, Barron, and so Mr. Trump has the television — and his old, unsecured Android phone, to the protests of some of his aides — to keep him company. That was the case after 9 p.m. on Tuesday, when Mr. Trump appeared to be reacting to Bill O’Reilly’s show on Fox News, which was airing a feature on crime in Chicago.
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Old 25th January 2017, 11:07 AM   #69
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What's the problem? Why would anyone be interested in hacking Trump's phone's camera and microphone?
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Old 25th January 2017, 11:16 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
So reckless.

Quote:
Senior Trump administration staffers including Kellyanne Conway, Jared Kushner, Sean Spicer and Steve Bannon have active accounts on a Republican National Committee email system, Newsweek has learned.

The system (rnchq.org) is the same one the Bush administration was accused of using to evade transparency rules after claiming to have “lost” 22 million emails.
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Old 25th January 2017, 11:22 AM   #71
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So, is Trump staying in the White House after all?
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Old 25th January 2017, 11:23 AM   #72
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They're not even going through the motions of acting appropriately.
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Old 25th January 2017, 11:23 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Yeah but careless e-mail handling is only a problem when your opponents do it.
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Old 25th January 2017, 11:26 AM   #74
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This sounds objectionable...
I mean, I can't remember the last time when Republicans were critical of a government official using a private email server...

Maybe some Trump supporters could give us their $0.02 on this?
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Old 25th January 2017, 11:26 AM   #75
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And the con man continues his con:

Headline: Trump signs order to end federal money to sanctuary cities.
Fact: He signed some BS order to look into it.

Headline: Trump moves to start building wall.
Fact: Gawd knows, it was some meaningless act that is unclear.

Headline: Trump signs order ending ACA.
Fact: No one can figure out what the order means, something about permission for Congress to act.

Headline (paraphrased): Trump says, "Chicago get your act together or big daddy Trump is going to step in and do it for you."
Fact: Bluster, nothing more.

And then there is the voter fraud investigation, riiiight, does anyone think there'll be an investigation? Like Melania's immigration press conference and a dozen other things Trump said he'd do that faded into the woodwork when the date arrived.

Headline: Trump signed a gazillion papers, see them right there on the desk, turning over all his businesses to his sons.
Fact: No one can find any actual evidence of said transfer.

Spicer is denying fed agencies were censored, they were only told to follow their own policies and the order did not come from Trump. Guess that trial balloon popped.

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Old 25th January 2017, 11:53 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No one can figure out what the order means, something about permission for Congress to act.
Perhaps gross incompetence has its usefulness.
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Old 25th January 2017, 12:00 PM   #77
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What is the deal with the wall? Does Trump genuinely have some idea of how Mexico are going to pay? I mean it just sounds completely deluded to me, but maybe I've missed something.
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Old 25th January 2017, 12:18 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
What is the deal with the wall? Does Trump genuinely have some idea of how Mexico are going to pay? I mean it just sounds completely deluded to me, but maybe I've missed something.
My wife was just pointing out that East Germany managed to get West Germany to pay for their wall.

Well, at least the "tearing it back down again" part of it.

ETA: At any rate, the average Mexican is probably looking north right now and saying "Maybe now is not the best time to go there."

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Old 25th January 2017, 12:22 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
What is the deal with the wall? Does Trump genuinely have some idea of how Mexico are going to pay? I mean it just sounds completely deluded to me, but maybe I've missed something.
Back during the campaign, he threatened to block remittances until Mexico pays a lump fee to fund the wall. Since those make up a significant piece of Mexico's economy, it really would put a lot of pressure on Mexico if he could pull it off.
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Old 25th January 2017, 12:27 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Back during the campaign, he threatened to block remittances until Mexico pays a lump fee to fund the wall. Since those make up a significant piece of Mexico's economy, it really would put a lot of pressure on Mexico if he could pull it off.
I don't think Trump is quite as smart as you make him out to be.
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