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Tags ICE incidents , ICE issues , immigration incidents , immigration issues

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Old 17th February 2017, 06:22 AM   #1
ChristianProgressive
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ICE uses church hypothermia shelter as a suspect trap

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...413889013.html

What's next? ERs? Soup kitchens/food banks? I'm for imigration control but this breaks the rules of human decency.
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Old 17th February 2017, 07:03 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...413889013.html
breaks the rules of human decency.
Why? I don't understand what rule this is breaking.
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Old 17th February 2017, 07:10 AM   #3
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You don't do things like this outside critical emergency services locations because it discourages people from using them. In this case, a "warming center" or hypothermia shelter. Word gets out that ICE is using them as essentially "bait" and people stay away. Sooner or later, someone winds of dying because they were too scared to go.

And before anyone starts yammering about "only the illegals need fear", note that legal citizens and green card holders were also harassed by this.
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Old 17th February 2017, 07:18 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
You don't do things like this outside critical emergency services locations because it discourages people from using them. In this case, a "warming center" or hypothermia shelter. Word gets out that ICE is using them as essentially "bait" and people stay away. Sooner or later, someone winds of dying because they were too scared to go.

And before anyone starts yammering about "only the illegals need fear", note that legal citizens and green card holders were also harassed by this.
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Old 17th February 2017, 07:24 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
You don't do things like this outside critical emergency services locations because it discourages people from using them. In this case, a "warming center" or hypothermia shelter. Word gets out that ICE is using them as essentially "bait" and people stay away. Sooner or later, someone winds of dying because they were too scared to go.

And before anyone starts yammering about "only the illegals need fear", note that legal citizens and green card holders were also harassed by this.

It's similar to when the CIA was running fake vaccination programs in Pakistan to collect DNA as part of their spying efforts. Once it was exposed, locals stopped using legitimate vaccination services, which has led to an increase in polio and other diseases.
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Old 17th February 2017, 07:42 AM   #6
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Poor widdle snowflakes. Perhaps the illegal criminals will go to where it's warmer instead saving the American Taxpayer the $$ necessary to deport them.

I'd had to show my Photo ID the other day to purchase a six pack of beer. Yea, it was a terrible inconvenience to me, but I got over it rather quickly realizing that I needed to prove I was old enough to purchase alcohol.

I've also had to show an ID to get back in the US from Canada and Mexico. Yea, terrible inconvenience. SNORT*
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Old 17th February 2017, 07:49 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Poor widdle snowflakes. Perhaps the illegal criminals will go to where it's warmer instead saving the American Taxpayer the $$ necessary to deport them.

....snip...
I think Melania often goes to Florida, so she's one that is taking your advice.
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Old 17th February 2017, 07:55 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Poor widdle snowflakes. Perhaps the illegal criminals will go to where it's warmer instead saving the American Taxpayer the $$ necessary to deport them.

I'd had to show my Photo ID the other day to purchase a six pack of beer. Yea, it was a terrible inconvenience to me, but I got over it rather quickly realizing that I needed to prove I was old enough to purchase alcohol.

I've also had to show an ID to get back in the US from Canada and Mexico. Yea, terrible inconvenience. SNORT*
Most of us don't carry proof of citizenship on our persons. Do you expect the homeless citizens needing to use this shelter keep their birth certificates with them?

I wonder what happened to and Mexican-Americans who tried to use this shelter. I'm only guessing, but it seems to me that detainment is likely. That's a little worse than having to show a license to buy beer or go without.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:03 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Most of us don't carry proof of citizenship on our persons. Do you expect the homeless citizens needing to use this shelter keep their birth certificates with them?
I don't carry my birth certificate with me either, but I'm pretty sure ICE would accept any form of ID that would show you're in the US legally. Things such as a driver license would likely suffice. In addition, many states will issue an ID for a nominal fee or in some cases for free. That would suffice, as well. BTW, you don't need to be a US Citizen to get either of those. Only that you are a legal resident.

You can't get a bank account without an ID and a Social Security number. There really is no valid excuse for someone legally in the US.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:03 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Poor widdle snowflakes. Perhaps the illegal criminals will go to where it's warmer instead saving the American Taxpayer the $$ necessary to deport them.

I'd had to show my Photo ID the other day to purchase a six pack of beer. Yea, it was a terrible inconvenience to me, but I got over it rather quickly realizing that I needed to prove I was old enough to purchase alcohol.

I've also had to show an ID to get back in the US from Canada and Mexico. Yea, terrible inconvenience. SNORT*
Yes because being asked for ID for buying alcohol or crossing the border is the same as walking down the street minding your own business or staying in a shelter to protect against hypothermia. Such obvious probable cause things those. Or perhaps it was just because they knew a bunch of people that all looked Mexican were there.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:05 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I don't carry my birth certificate with me either, but I'm pretty sure ICE would accept any form of ID that would show you're in the US legally. Things such as a driver license would likely suffice. In addition, many states will issue an ID for a nominal fee or in some cases for free. That would suffice, as well. BTW, you don't need to be a US Citizen to get either of those. Only that you are a legal resident.
A driver's licence isn't proof of being legal, and besides, how many homeless people have them, or any state issued ID?
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:08 AM   #12
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"I had to show ID to buy beer, so other people should have to show ID to not freeze to death!" is one of the most sickeningly heartless arguments I've ever seen.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:09 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I don't carry my birth certificate with me either, but I'm pretty sure ICE would accept any form of ID that would show you're in the US legally. Things such as a driver license would likely suffice. In addition, many states will issue an ID for a nominal fee or in some cases for free. That would suffice, as well. BTW, you don't need to be a US Citizen to get either of those. Only that you are a legal resident.

You can't get a bank account without an ID and a Social Security number. There really is no valid excuse for someone legally in the US.
First, I was under the impression that driver's license do not serve to show that you're in the country legally.

Second, the set of people without ID and the set of people needing a shelter in cold weather just might have some overlap, don't you think? Many homeless suffer from mental illness, addiction, etc. One can't expect them to have considered the possibility of needing an ID just to use a shelter.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:11 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I don't carry my birth certificate with me either, but I'm pretty sure ICE would accept any form of ID that would show you're in the US legally. Things such as a driver license would likely suffice. In addition, many states will issue an ID for a nominal fee or in some cases for free. That would suffice, as well. BTW, you don't need to be a US Citizen to get either of those. Only that you are a legal resident.

You can't get a bank account without an ID and a Social Security number. There really is no valid excuse for someone legally in the US.

Homeless people carry ID?
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:12 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
A driver's licence isn't proof of being legal,
Yes, it is if from a Real ID state. I don't know about NZ, but in the US it is. Of course, there's always the possibility of a counterfeit one. ICE agents are trained to spot the counterfeit ones.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
and besides, how many homeless people have them, or any state issued ID?
They will have another warm place to go while they're being questioned.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:13 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Poor widdle snowflakes. Perhaps the illegal criminals will go to where it's warmer instead saving the American Taxpayer the $$ necessary to deport them.

I'd had to show my Photo ID the other day to purchase a six pack of beer. Yea, it was a terrible inconvenience to me, but I got over it rather quickly realizing that I needed to prove I was old enough to purchase alcohol.

I've also had to show an ID to get back in the US from Canada and Mexico. Yea, terrible inconvenience. SNORT*
What you seem to be suggesting is that the need to deport a few illegals outstrips the need to keep people from freezing to death. Do you really think that being an illegal immigrant should be penalized by freezing to death? That is not to mention that, if you thought about it, the homeless people who are likely to use hypothermia shelters also include a rather high percentage of people who, legal or not, do not get along well with authority. Some are mentally ill, some scared of authority for other reasons. If, as is suggested, the roundup included the harassment of people who were not illegal, and if, as is possible, the result is that those people will not avail themselves of such shelters, then your tiresome "widdle snowflake" cliché translates into a very cruel and heartlessly elitist attitude toward the discomfort and possible death of people. To compare it to the inconvenience of buying beer suggests a serious lack of thought.

You know, not every stupid and cruel idea can be justified by calling its opponents snowflakes. Not everything one tries to do to keep one's fellow man from dying in the cold is unamerican.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
An ICE spokeswoman said the agency's "sensitive location" policy was followed. The policy requires agents to avoid arresting people at places of worship, schools and medical facilities. The spokeswoman emphasized the arrests took place across the street from the church and not on church property.
Talk about splitting hairs. "We didn't go into the church or stand right outside the church, the church was simply the target."
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
First, I was under the impression that driver's license do not serve to show that you're in the country legally.
Your impression is wrong. You have to show proof of birth to obtain a Driver's License. There's more than one way to do that.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Second, the set of people without ID and the set of people needing a shelter in cold weather just might have some overlap, don't you think? Many homeless suffer from mental illness, addiction, etc. One can't expect them to have considered the possibility of needing an ID just to use a shelter.
As I said below, they'll have a warm place to stay while they're being questioned.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
They will have another warm place to go while they're being questioned.
So you are good with locking up US Citizens and Residents who don't carry ID on them but look foreign? Good to know that.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:18 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
A driver's licence isn't proof of being legal, and besides, how many homeless people have them, or any state issued ID?
Yes, it is proof. You're jumping to conclusions without justification.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:19 AM   #21
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:20 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Yes, it is proof. You're jumping to conclusions without justification.

You'd be happy for any LEO to demand your ID at any point?
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:20 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
"I had to show ID to buy beer, so other people should have to show ID to not freeze to death!" is one of the most sickeningly heartless arguments I've ever seen.
Yes, if you jump to poor widdle snowflake conclusions it is...
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:23 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Yes, if you jump to poor widdle snowflake conclusions it is...
Oh, I'm sorry. It must have been some other Reheat that came into a thread about ICE using a hypothermia shelter as a trap and posted this:

Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I'd had to show my Photo ID the other day to purchase a six pack of beer. Yea, it was a terrible inconvenience to me, but I got over it rather quickly realizing that I needed to prove I was old enough to purchase alcohol.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:24 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
If you want to catch fish, you have to go where the fish are. We pay these people to catch fish.
You got a mouse in your pocket? *I* don't pay anyone to harass people based on their skin color or other perceived physical features of race.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:24 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So you are good with locking up US Citizens and Residents who don't carry ID on them but look foreign? Good to know that.
Your critical thinking skills have disappeared? It's best if you don't assume things not in evidence.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:26 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Yes, it is if from a Real ID state. I don't know about NZ, but in the US it is. Of course, there's always the possibility of a counterfeit one. ICE agents are trained to spot the counterfeit ones.
How many states have those?

Does Virginia?

And, again, aren't the homeless more likely to not have ID?
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:27 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
You got a mouse in your pocket? *I* don't pay anyone to harass people based on their skin color or other perceived physical features of race.
How in the hell do you know they just didn't say hello and waited for a response in English?
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:29 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Your impression is wrong. You have to show proof of birth to obtain a Driver's License. There's more than one way to do that.
Most states currently require this. Many people from my state (including me) currently have driver's license that did not require any sort of proof of residency or citizenship.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:29 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
You got a mouse in your pocket? *I* don't pay anyone to harass people based on their skin color or other perceived physical features of race.
No, no mouse in my pocket. But I take your point - it isn't the results of the raid that are a problem, just the methodology of selecting out "foreign-looking" as probable cause.

What criteria should they use? (I'd go with, "seems to like soccer" for a start.)
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:32 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Your impression is wrong. You have to show proof of birth to obtain a Driver's License. There's more than one way to do that.
I'm pretty sure just being alive is "proof of birth."
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:32 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
How in the hell do you know they just didn't say hello and waited for a response in English?
Because I read the *********** article.
Quote:
Oscar Ramirez said he had just left the hypothermia shelter at Rising Hope Mission Church on Russell Road in the Alexandria section of Fairfax County, Virginia, when about a dozen ICE agents surround him and other Latino men.

"'Stop right there. Stop right there. Stop right there. Stay by the wall, where we can see your hands,'" the agents said, according to Ramirez.
They were harassed either for appearing Latino or for walking out of a church. Which option do you want to defend?
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:33 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Most states currently require this. Many people from my state (including me) currently have driver's license that did not require any sort of proof of residency or citizenship.
So, they just took your word for your birth date? Surely, you must be from California. I guess that's why even TSA won't accept a driver license from the States without Real ID. Are you sure the law hasn't changed since you got yours?
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:35 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
No, no mouse in my pocket. But I take your point - it isn't the results of the raid that are a problem, just the methodology of selecting out "foreign-looking" as probable cause.

What criteria should they use? (I'd go with, "seems to like soccer" for a start.)
Perhaps we could start with "was caught crossing a border illegally or without proper documentation." Then, maybe, just maybe, "was reported to be staying in the country illegally."
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:36 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Because I read the *********** article.

They were harassed either for appearing Latino or for walking out of a church. Which option do you want to defend?
I'll defend getting people out who are in the US illegally. BTW, you only have one side of the story.

ETA: Serious criminals go first.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:38 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I'll defend getting people out who are in the US illegally.
"By any means necessary," apparently.
Quote:
BTW, you only have one side of the story.
ICE commentary was included, as noted in the article and above.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:40 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post

They were harassed either for appearing Latino or for walking out of a church. Which option do you want to defend?
You can't have it both ways. If they were stopped for appearing Latino, then they appeared Latino, which is the target group ICE was looking for. If their appearance shouldn't matter and doesn't identify them as Latino, then we can't say ICE is harassing them for being Latino.

If we wanted to be scientific about it to cut through the nonsense, we could ask how many undocumented folks were rounded up with the method and compare that to other methods.

If, on the other hand, we simply don't want these people to be "rounded up" at all, then no method will do - ICE can retire and enjoy their collective pensions, sunning themselves in Miami.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:42 AM   #38
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
You can't have it both ways. If they were stopped for appearing Latino, then they appeared Latino, which is the target group ICE was looking for. If their appearance shouldn't matter and doesn't identify them as Latino, then we can't say ICE is harassing them for being Latino.
I don't want it either way. ICE agents should be required to have at least "reasonable suspicion" before harassing people on the street, just like any other law enforcement agency; skin color does not qualify. If they're not required to have such, that's a serious problem with the law.

ETA: As for the rest of your post, I've got no problem with the idea of downsizing ICE.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 17th February 2017 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:43 AM   #39
marplots
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Perhaps we could start with "was caught crossing a border illegally or without proper documentation." Then, maybe, just maybe, "was reported to be staying in the country illegally."
Sounds reasonable. So ICE gets a call...
"Hello, ICE?"
"We prefer Customs and Immigration, thank you."
"Well, I thought you should know there's a bunch of illegals hanging out at the warming shelter."
"Oh, really. How do you know this?"
"I know. They keep asking for us to turn up the temperature because they come from South America."
"That's pretty thin."
"Yeah, well they all look Latino too."
"Oh, OK. We'll be right over."
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:45 AM   #40
marplots
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I don't want it either way. ICE agents should be required to have at least "reasonable suspicion" before harassing people on the street, just like any other law enforcement agency; skin color does not qualify. If they're not required to have such, that's a serious problem with the law.
Good enough. As I mentioned, we should look at the results. If they are catching the people we ask them to catch, then their suspicions are reasonable. At least reasonable in the sense those suspicions accomplish the task at hand. If not, not.
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