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Old 9th April 2019, 06:39 AM   #201
ahhell
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
One of the links posted on this thread describes him as ex-homeless. Can't remember which one.
Maybe, Ex but the police did pick him up at a residency meant for homeless folks which I suppose counts as ex. Still, Crazy homeless man spouting random offensive things at very high volume is a much higher probability hit in SF than crazy trump supporter/conservative.

Except at the 24th street BART station which seemed to have a resident church group with a bullhorn. I don't speak spanish so I can't be sure about their politics but I suspect I was going to hell.
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Old 9th April 2019, 07:10 AM   #202
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Crazy homeless Trump supporter/conservative?
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Old 9th April 2019, 07:19 AM   #203
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The Mad Pirate of 'Frisco suffices. Fashion and/or voting records secondary. Should Cap'n Yoyo spout campaign rhetoric, might become relevant. We can roll with whackadooziewoozie for now, and consider his political philosophies of governance when he throws his pirate hat in the ring and runs for political office.
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Old 9th April 2019, 08:27 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Maybe, Ex but the police did pick him up at a residency meant for homeless folks which I suppose counts as ex. Still, Crazy homeless man spouting random offensive things at very high volume is a much higher probability hit in SF than crazy trump supporter/conservative.

Except at the 24th street BART station which seemed to have a resident church group with a bullhorn. I don't speak spanish so I can't be sure about their politics but I suspect I was going to hell.
You were in San Francisco. Are you sure you haven't already arrived?
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:14 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The Mad Pirate of 'Frisco suffices. Fashion and/or voting records secondary. Should Cap'n Yoyo spout campaign rhetoric, might become relevant. We can roll with whackadooziewoozie for now, and consider his political philosophies of governance when he throws his pirate hat in the ring and runs for political office.
He was. He was shouting homophobic slurs.
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:51 AM   #206
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He has pleaded not guilty. His lawyer got on a political soapbox and also mentioned that Sword Guy was beaten with the hat after it was pulled off.

Originally Posted by SF Gate
Outside of court Tuesday, Bergland's attorney, Deputy Public Defender Steve Olmo, said his client had been "minding his own business" before the incident took place.

"I'm tired of this so-called liberal, political area having acts of violence against people who have different views. I don't agree with what Trump does, but look at what's happened over at Cal with conservative speakers speaking," Olmo said, refereeing to violent confrontations that have taken place at the University of California at Berkeley over the last couple of years between alt-right supporters and far-left supporters.

"This was all triggered because he was wearing a hat?" he said.

According to Olmo, the victim in the case had flipped off Bergland and also assaulted him with the hat prior to the stabbing.

"You have a right to be walking down the street with your views ... It's outrageous and I'm just tired of it in this area. I'm tired of people not allowing the expression of other people," he said.
https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/...d-13753798.php
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:25 PM   #207
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Does "proportional response" mean anything to this guy? He hits you with a hat, so you hit him with a sword?
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:59 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Does "proportional response" mean anything to this guy? He hits you with a hat, so you hit him with a sword?
Physical violence is an quantum leap of escalation.

You don't complain about the guy who responded to speech by assaulting the speaker. Why not? Why don't you have a problem with *his* disproportionate response?

The point of responding to a physical assault is not to have a fair fight. The point is not to inflict the same injuries you're receiving. The point of responding to a physical assault is to stop the assault as soon as possible, and prevent as much injury to yourself as possible.

I don't want to get into a proportional punching contest with an assailant. I want to get into an entirely disproportionate "this assault stops now" contest with an assailant.

There's no moral argument in favor of the guy who starts the physical violence getting to set the rules for fighting back.

But you skip straight over that douchebag, to condemn his victim for not playing fair. Like it's a game to you, and the attacker deserved to win.

Last edited by theprestige; 10th April 2019 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:03 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Does "proportional response" mean anything to this guy? He hits you with a hat, so you hit him with a sword?
If his version of events is true (I tend to think it isn't, but more on that in a moment) then he is minding his own business when some dude comes over, grabs his hat, and starts beating him with it. That creates a reasonable fear of great bodily harm, i.e. he is being assaulted, actively and physically. He pulls a weapon to defend himself. He makes one cut at the hand that is beating him, and then turns tail and runs. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.


Now, why don't I think it's true? It's because of the couple who said he was yelling at them. That makes me think he is a crazy person, and he was actually being aggressive towards the other people involved, creating some sort of reasonable fear as well. His lawyer wants to make it out as he was just on the street when he got attacked because of his MAGA hat. If that could be demonstrated, I would say that what happened to the attacker (i.e. the guy who got hit with the sword) was self defense prompted by an aggressive attack. Yes, a sword can be a deadly weapon, but it was apparently wielded in such a way as to constitute defense against an aggressor. He stopped the attack, and then ran away. Well, if you believe his lawyer, that's what happened.

I'm also a bit nervous about anyone who just happens to have a sword with him. On those occasions when you or I walk about with interesting cutlery, it's pretty obvious that it's part of a costume. Even then, as I've grown older, I now always take out any daggers or swords, and put them in the car. If someone in street clothes happens to have anything that could be reasonably labelled as a "sword", I wonder what is up with that.


But there's something that bugs me about this story, right form the start. It's the hat.

Guy attacks someone with sword. That's enough of a "dog bites man" style story that it's newsworthy. What does "wearing a hat" add to the story? The San Francisco new video linked earlier made it the focus of the story. Surely, the sword is more significant than the hat, isn't it?


Well, for those of you playing along at home, you can get out your fallacy bingo cards and mark "poisoning the well". The intent of that focus is to declare one of the people guilty in the minds of viewers/readers before they have examined any facts. He has a MAGA hat, therefore he is a bad person, therefore he attacked people.

That may very well be what happened, but it's also possible that he was himself attacked, and was defending himself. I don't know if there is any video surveillance that might shed some light on the subject. If there isn't, we might never know what happened.
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:45 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
He has a MAGA hat, therefore he is a bad person, therefore he attacked people.

That may very well be what happened, but it's also possible that he was himself attacked, and was defending himself. I don't know if there is any video surveillance that might shed some light on the subject. If there isn't, we might never know what happened.
First he encountered Hetero Guy who was with his girlfriend. They saw Sword Guy standing with his MAGA hat and glaring, so they flipped him the middle finger. Some dudes will right away become physical if you flip the middle finger at them. But Hetero Guy said that Sword Guy only started calling them gay slurs (which is weird for a hetero couple). That was that and it all ended when Hetero Couple went inside the rink.

Then later we were told that some other dude knocked the MAGA hat off of Sword Guy and then got sworded. Maybe this dude even whacked him with his own hat.

People were aggressively engaging Sword Guy though not as an assault. He was probably annoying and maybe drunk. But the MAGA hat may have made it all worse or was the real catalyst.

We can't say for certain that a middle finger would have been flipped anyway if there was no MAGA hat worn by Sword Guy. And we can't be certain that a guy would have been sworded anyway even if there wasn't a MAGA hat to knock off.

In the end, it could really be the hat itself.
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:57 PM   #211
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In the end, sword guy was at fault because of the way he dressed.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:03 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In the end, sword guy was at fault because of the way he dressed.
No, sword guy was at fault because he defended himself with a deadly weapon while being assaulted with a hat.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:10 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In the end, sword guy was at fault because of the way he dressed.
Agreed. Sword a poor fashion decision.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:35 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Gay people will clearly go to great lengths to hurt Trumps reputation.
Trump destroys any good reputation he might have ever had by the evil and stupidity he does to himself.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:37 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, sword guy was at fault because he defended himself with a deadly weapon while being assaulted with a hat.
At least we know for sure that Men Without Hats were not responsible!
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:08 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Physical violence is an quantum leap of escalation.
But a lid-flip is not physical violence, except in the most pedantic sense. It is not an imminent threat of grave injury. It packs less import than a finger jabbed in the chest.

Quote:
You don't complain about the guy who responded to speech by assaulting the speaker. Why not? Why don't you have a problem with *his* disproportionate response?
If you are referring to Richard Spencer, the attacker wasn't responding to the snivelling speech at the time. He was responding to the body of Spencer's work, which promised and threatened violence, and incited it from his following.

Quote:
The point of responding to a physical assault is not to have a fair fight. The point is not to inflict the same injuries you're receiving. The point of responding to a physical assault is to stop the assault as soon as possible, and prevent as much injury to yourself as possible.
If you have reason to believe you are in imminent grave danger, yes. If you don't, you don't. Someone jabs a finger at you, you don't have the moral right to cut that finger off in fear of some possibility of escalation. You unequivocally do not have the legal right.

Quote:
I don't want to get into a proportional punching contest with an assailant. I want to get into an entirely disproportionate "this assault stops now" contest with an assailant.

There's no moral argument in favor of the guy who starts the physical violence getting to set the rules for fighting back.
He doesn't. Mr Policeman and His/Her Honor do. You can philosophize about the bounds of self-protection with your cellmate, though.

Quote:
But you skip straight over that douchebag, to condemn his victim for not playing fair. Like it's a game to you, and the attacker deserved to win.
The lid-flipper may deserve a pop in the chops. Swords kill. He is chargedwith attempted murder because the law sez that's the clear cut statute home boy violated. Are you arguing for anarchy, perchance?
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:12 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The lid-flipper may deserve a pop in the chops. Swords kill. He is chargedwith attempted murder because the law sez that's the clear cut statute home boy violated. Are you arguing for anarchy, perchance?
He is arguing that leftists (i.e, people who aren't and don't like MAGA) are the violent ones. Kinda hard to do when the swordsman was wearing Trumph paraphernalia, but he'll find a way.
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Old 11th April 2019, 07:00 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Physical violence is an quantum leap of escalation.

You don't complain about the guy who responded to speech by assaulting the speaker. Why not? Why don't you have a problem with *his* disproportionate response?

The point of responding to a physical assault is not to have a fair fight. The point is not to inflict the same injuries you're receiving. The point of responding to a physical assault is to stop the assault as soon as possible, and prevent as much injury to yourself as possible.

I don't want to get into a proportional punching contest with an assailant. I want to get into an entirely disproportionate "this assault stops now" contest with an assailant.

There's no moral argument in favor of the guy who starts the physical violence getting to set the rules for fighting back.

But you skip straight over that douchebag, to condemn his victim for not playing fair. Like it's a game to you, and the attacker deserved to win.
The only thing that is needed to stop a bad guy with a hat is a good guy with a ******** sword. Really?
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:12 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
His lawyer got on a political soapbox and also mentioned that Sword Guy was beaten with the hat after it was pulled off.
I guess he should be lucky it wasn't a wet noodle.
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Old 12th April 2019, 10:54 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
He has pleaded not guilty. His lawyer got on a political soapbox and also mentioned that Sword Guy was beaten with the hat after it was pulled off.



https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/...d-13753798.php
I'm glad Gilligan finally stood up for himself.
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