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#1 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
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NYT: What voting is like in Australia
Australia Tells America: Here’s How to Fix Your Voting System
The headline is a little misleading, since no-one here is telling America how to fix its voting system. But there are a few things about voting in Australia explained.
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#2 |
Scholar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 59
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"grilling of hotdogs" ?
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#3 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#4 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,430
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#5 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,486
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What is this "Democracy Sausage" of which they speak?
I have never heard this phrase used in 50 years of voting, Federal, State and local. I am certainly familiar with Sausage Sizzles, which are everywhere on a Saturday including outside supermarkets and shopping complexes, on beaches, in backyards (I was eating sausages in Bread over 60 years ago), and on election days as local community fundraisers. But Democracy Sausage? It was, is and always will be a Sausage Sizzle, and is not even close to defining snags eaten outside a Polling Booth on election days. Some people vote early, and don't have breakfast just thinking they will grab a sausage and a Coffee at the Community Hall/School, RSL etc. That is the tradition. Norm |
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Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain |
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#6 |
Now. Do it now.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
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Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting.
Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage. |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#7 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,686
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The reality is that compulsory voting is a permanent fixture in Australia. We have compulsory taxation and compulsory compliance with the law. Some don’t vote, don’t pay taxes and break the law. They face the consequences, a very minor fine in the case of not voting.
I’m not sure of the effect of donkey voting, but I’m pretty convinced it is minor. In almost every case one of the two major parties win in the lower house. If the practice of voting 1,2,3 etc down the ballot paper was prevalent I think you would see far more minor parties and independents get up (yes, I know it’s complicated by the preferential system). |
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#8 |
Now. Do it now.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
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The point being that if someone doesn't want to vote but feels forced to by the fine, then the outcome is generally spoiled ballot papers or a donkey vote........in which case there is actually a negative in forcing those people to have voted in the first place.
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#9 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 19,222
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#10 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,686
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Do you have evidence for this? I doubt it is correct. In my experience reluctant voters grab the voting guide of their least despised party and follow that.
ETA if a reluctant voter wanted simply to spoil their vote they would vote informal. After all, any blind, or donkey, vote would still elect a politician. Yet we know informal votes are very few. In the recent Wentworth by election, they were below 1%. No, I think when people are compelled to vote, they almost always take it seriously. |
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#11 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,949
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Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad |
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#12 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,686
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#13 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,686
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Okay, I did underestimate the total informal vote. Over the nation at the last election it was 5%. This, of course, includes simple mistakes, like someone who only puts in the first preference and not others, and people who put in A B C rather than 1 2 3. So bigger than I guesstimated, but still not a major issue in my view.
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#14 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 10,018
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#15 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,328
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#16 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,328
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#17 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,686
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#18 |
Adelaidean
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,999
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IIRC the reason for the random allocation of ballots was precisely because of that.
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#19 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,643
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So we run with a preferential voting system that requires you to number each choice from one to however many candidates there are and your least prefered choice. A donkey vote is when you apathetically number down the page. A percentage of people will do that.
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#20 |
Up The Irons
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 34,458
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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#21 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,283
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While it is pretty clear that there is some serious work being done in some states to reduce voter participation, the culture of voter participation in the US is pretty weak. I live in Massachusetts, which makes it very easy and convenient to vote. You can vote by mail, you can vote early (polls open every day near me for two weeks prior to election), the poll itself is open more than 12 hours on election day, and it is within walking distance of my apartment. Even still, voter participation on presidential election cycles is about 75%, and only 50% on non-presidential elections. People just aren't motivated to vote, especially for the unsexy "off-year" elections.
https://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/elev...rnoutstats.htm |
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Gobble gobble |
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#22 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 52,488
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Preferential voting alone would be a massive game changer in the US. Compulsory voting I'm not so sure about.
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#23 |
Muse
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oz
Posts: 910
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No there is BBQ sauce on them- ketchup is practically unheard of here
(some degenerates will put tomato sauce on them, some actually put mustard on them- these people should immediately be banned from voting for life!!!!!) ![]() eta a perfect sausage sizzle sanga ![]() sausage,bbq sauce and onion |
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It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader 'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin |
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#24 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,075
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Here's the thing.
Here in America the talking point of a 'silent majority,' the political equivalent of that one dofus in every online discussion who's main argument is "Well all the lurkers agree with me" is too common and well used of a talking point. It's a great way to claim a consensus or majority where none exist. Nobody can be sure what the majority of non-voting Americans really are going to vote on if we force them to the polls. We can make educated guesses based on demographics and polling and all that, but we can't be sure. I don't think anyone with skin the game really wants the risk of introducing a... what several tens of millions at the very least... players to the game under those circumstances. |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#25 |
Up The Irons
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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#26 |
Up The Irons
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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#27 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
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#28 |
Muse
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oz
Posts: 910
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Our local Bunnings has about one a month, as does the footy club, and there is one every Saturday morning at the shopping center
Sausage sizzles are an Aussie tradition at fundraisers/sporting events/wherever else groups of people congregate |
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It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader 'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin |
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#29 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 7,070
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In NZ as well. Generally using the lowest grade 'sausage' ever. Disgusting things, although I admit I've eaten my fair share.
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There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
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#30 |
Now. Do it now.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#31 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 7,070
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There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
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#32 |
Up The Irons
Tagger
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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#33 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 52,488
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Sausage? Australian politics are weird.
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#34 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,518
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Well, there's the loss of fuel and time that accompanies the empty ritual. There's the opportunity cost, generally, of performing an empty ritual when the same effect could be achieved by simply doing anything else with your day.
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#35 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,643
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Or you pay the fine and move on with life. We are overall less hung up on ideas of small government, interference in citizens’ lives, and tax obligations as long as there is the perception of a greater social good. At this point in time we accept obligatory voting as part of our social contract.
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#36 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
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If the Aussie Sausage is just the British "Banger"they are available in the US at the fancy gourmet Grocery stores and British themed Restaurants.
BTW I am betting that Aussies visitng the United States get a few laughs out of the "Outback Steakhouse" restaurant chain.... |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#38 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
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That is my problem with manadatory voting: if somebody is not interested in politics he will be casting a vote based on total ignorance or anger at being forced to vote, and either way it's probably better if he does not vote at all.
I have never seen a convincing defense of manadatory voting,though some of the Aussies try. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#39 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#40 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,885
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"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! ! |
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