NYT: What voting is like in Australia

arthwollipot · 30th October 2018, 10:13 PM

Australia Tells America: Here’s How to Fix Your Voting System

The headline is a little misleading, since no-one here is telling America how to fix its voting system. But there are a few things about voting in Australia explained.

Quote:

The dirty work of democracy is often compared to the making of sausages, but Australians almost take that maxim literally — turning Election Day into a countrywide barbecue, in which the grilling of hot dogs is optional but voting is compulsory.

More than 96 percent of eligible Australians are enrolled to vote. Of those, more than 90 percent typically turn out to cast ballots for a federal election, far more than the 55 percent of eligible Americans who participated in the 2016 presidential election.

Australians are induced to vote with both sticks and carrots. Shirkers can be fined up to nearly 80 Australian dollars if they fail to show at the polls. But voting, which always takes place on a Saturday, is also made easy and efficient, and is often accompanied by a community barbecue that includes eating what locals affectionately call “democracy sausages.”

As Americans prepare to vote in the midterm elections, we asked our readers in Australia to share their experiences and feelings about compulsory voting and explain the ins and outs of the process.

deverett · 30th October 2018, 11:01 PM

"grilling of hotdogs" ?

arthwollipot · 30th October 2018, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by deverett

"grilling of hotdogs" ?

Yeah, we forgive the NYT for that goof. They are, after all, writing for an American audience, and America doesn't have an equivalent to the classic Aussie sausage. So they substitute a term that is close enough to get the message across.

Norman Alexander · 30th October 2018, 11:22 PM

More details here.

fromdownunder · 30th October 2018, 11:54 PM

What is this "Democracy Sausage" of which they speak?

I have never heard this phrase used in 50 years of voting, Federal, State and local. I am certainly familiar with Sausage Sizzles, which are everywhere on a Saturday including outside supermarkets and shopping complexes, on beaches, in backyards (I was eating sausages in Bread over 60 years ago), and on election days as local community fundraisers.

But Democracy Sausage? It was, is and always will be a Sausage Sizzle, and is not even close to defining snags eaten outside a Polling Booth on election days. Some people vote early, and don't have breakfast just thinking they will grab a sausage and a Coffee at the Community Hall/School, RSL etc. That is the tradition.

Norm

MikeG · 31st October 2018, 12:25 AM

Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting.

Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage.

lionking · 31st October 2018, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting.

The reality is that compulsory voting is a permanent fixture in Australia. We have compulsory taxation and compulsory compliance with the law. Some don’t vote, don’t pay taxes and break the law. They face the consequences, a very minor fine in the case of not voting.

I’m not sure of the effect of donkey voting, but I’m pretty convinced it is minor. In almost every case one of the two major parties win in the lower house. If the practice of voting 1,2,3 etc down the ballot paper was prevalent I think you would see far more minor parties and independents get up (yes, I know it’s complicated by the preferential system).

MikeG · 31st October 2018, 12:50 AM

The point being that if someone doesn't want to vote but feels forced to by the fine, then the outcome is generally spoiled ballot papers or a donkey vote........in which case there is actually a negative in forcing those people to have voted in the first place.

Craig4 · 31st October 2018, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Australia Tells America: Here’s How to Fix Your Voting System

The headline is a little misleading, since no-one here is telling America how to fix its voting system. But there are a few things about voting in Australia explained.

Oh my gawd, there is ketchup on those sausages. You people are animals.

lionking · 31st October 2018, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

The point being that if someone doesn't want to vote but feels forced to by the fine, then the outcome is generally spoiled ballot papers or a donkey vote........in which case there is actually a negative in forcing those people to have voted in the first place.

Do you have evidence for this? I doubt it is correct. In my experience reluctant voters grab the voting guide of their least despised party and follow that.

ETA if a reluctant voter wanted simply to spoil their vote they would vote informal. After all, any blind, or donkey, vote would still elect a politician.

Yet we know informal votes are very few. In the recent Wentworth by election, they were below 1%.

No, I think when people are compelled to vote, they almost always take it seriously.

Dave Rogers · 31st October 2018, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

The point being that if someone doesn't want to vote but feels forced to by the fine, then the outcome is generally spoiled ballot papers or a donkey vote........in which case there is actually a negative in forcing those people to have voted in the first place.

In the case of a spoiled ballot, what's the actual negative impact? A spoiled paper gives a much clearer message than simply not turning up at the polling station.

Dave

lionking · 31st October 2018, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

In the case of a spoiled ballot, what's the actual negative impact? A spoiled paper gives a much clearer message than simply not turning up at the polling station.

Dave

That’s true, but it happens so rarely it makes the news, like the voter in the Wentworth by election who crossed out all other candidates and put Turnbull’s name in. Took some effort.

Yes, informal (spoiled) votes is an issue, but not a big one

lionking · 31st October 2018, 02:28 AM

Okay, I did underestimate the total informal vote. Over the nation at the last election it was 5%. This, of course, includes simple mistakes, like someone who only puts in the first preference and not others, and people who put in A B C rather than 1 2 3. So bigger than I guesstimated, but still not a major issue in my view.

Information Analyst · 31st October 2018, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by deverett

"grilling of hotdogs" ?

Also my initial incredulity...

catsmate · 31st October 2018, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting.

Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage.

In preference voting Donkey Votes can be dealt with by randomising the order of candidates on different papers.

catsmate · 31st October 2018, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

The reality is that compulsory voting is a permanent fixture in Australia. We have compulsory taxation and compulsory compliance with the law. Some don’t vote, don’t pay taxes and break the law. They face the consequences, a very minor fine in the case of not voting.

I’m not sure of the effect of donkey voting, but I’m pretty convinced it is minor. In almost every case one of the two major parties win in the lower house. If the practice of voting 1,2,3 etc down the ballot paper was prevalent I think you would see far more minor parties and independents get up (yes, I know it’s complicated by the preferential system).

Agreed. Certainly in Ireland (which uses PR/STV) it's not an issue.

lionking · 31st October 2018, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

In preference voting Donkey Votes can be dealt with by randomising the order of candidates on different papers.

They do that here. There is a ballot to decide order, otherwise there would be a series of Aaron Aardvarks candidates or Aaussie Advance parties.....

Wildy · 31st October 2018, 04:44 AM

IIRC the reason for the random allocation of ballots was precisely because of that.

Sideroxylon · 31st October 2018, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting.

So we run with a preferential voting system that requires you to number each choice from one to however many candidates there are and your least prefered choice. A donkey vote is when you apathetically number down the page. A percentage of people will do that.

Quote:

Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage.

When they are packed with crocodile or kangaroo.

Damien Evans · 31st October 2018, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting.

Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage.

Given the position is randomised before printing it has little to no effect. And an Aussie sausage has more sawdust and less meat than an English one.

SuburbanTurkey · 31st October 2018, 05:17 AM

While it is pretty clear that there is some serious work being done in some states to reduce voter participation, the culture of voter participation in the US is pretty weak. I live in Massachusetts, which makes it very easy and convenient to vote. You can vote by mail, you can vote early (polls open every day near me for two weeks prior to election), the poll itself is open more than 12 hours on election day, and it is within walking distance of my apartment. Even still, voter participation on presidential election cycles is about 75%, and only 50% on non-presidential elections. People just aren't motivated to vote, especially for the unsexy "off-year" elections.

https://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/elev...rnoutstats.htm

TragicMonkey · 31st October 2018, 05:18 AM

Preferential voting alone would be a massive game changer in the US. Compulsory voting I'm not so sure about.

Dabop · 31st October 2018, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

Oh my gawd, there is ketchup on those sausages. You people are animals.

No there is BBQ sauce on them- ketchup is practically unheard of here
(some degenerates will put tomato sauce on them, some actually put mustard on them- these people should immediately be banned from voting for life!!!!!)

eta
a perfect sausage sizzle sanga

sausage,bbq sauce and onion

JoeMorgue · 31st October 2018, 05:21 AM

Here's the thing.

Here in America the talking point of a 'silent majority,' the political equivalent of that one dofus in every online discussion who's main argument is "Well all the lurkers agree with me" is too common and well used of a talking point. It's a great way to claim a consensus or majority where none exist.

Nobody can be sure what the majority of non-voting Americans really are going to vote on if we force them to the polls. We can make educated guesses based on demographics and polling and all that, but we can't be sure.

I don't think anyone with skin the game really wants the risk of introducing a... what several tens of millions at the very least... players to the game under those circumstances.

Damien Evans · 31st October 2018, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

Oh my gawd, there is ketchup on those sausages. You people are animals.

Tomato Sauce, while equally disgusting, is different from ketchup, it's much less sweet.

Damien Evans · 31st October 2018, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Here's the thing.

Here in America the talking point of a 'silent majority,' the political equivalent of that one dofus in every online discussion who's main argument is "Well all the lurkers agree with me" is too common and well used of a talking point. It's a great way to claim a consensus or majority where none exist.

Nobody can be sure what the majority of non-voting Americans really are going to vote on if we force them to the polls. We can make educated guesses based on demographics and polling and all that, but we can't be sure.

I don't think anyone with skin the game really wants the risk of introducing a... what several tens of millions at the very least... players to the game under those circumstances.

Silent Majorities which are in actual fact a noisy minority exist everywhere in the world, that's not an American thing.

Sideroxylon · 31st October 2018, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Dabop

No there is BBQ sauce on them- ketchup is practically unheard of here
(some degenerates will put tomato sauce on them, some actually put mustard on them- these people should immediately be banned from voting for life!!!!!)

eta
a perfect sausage sizzle sanga
https://i.postimg.cc/YCHz7m87/sausage-sizzle.png
sausage,bbq sauce and onion

Out the front of a Bunnings hardware store?

Dabop · 31st October 2018, 05:37 AM

Our local Bunnings has about one a month, as does the footy club, and there is one every Saturday morning at the shopping center
Sausage sizzles are an Aussie tradition at fundraisers/sporting events/wherever else groups of people congregate

fagin · 31st October 2018, 06:41 AM

In NZ as well. Generally using the lowest grade 'sausage' ever. Disgusting things, although I admit I've eaten my fair share.

MikeG · 31st October 2018, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Dabop

......a perfect sausage sizzle sanga
........
sausage,bbq sauce and onion

White bread! Seek help.......

fagin · 31st October 2018, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

White bread! Seek help.......

It's a rule. To go with the shonky 'sausage'.

Damien Evans · 31st October 2018, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

White bread! Seek help.......

I don't think you get the inherent Cut-me-own-throat dibblerishness of this food.

TragicMonkey · 31st October 2018, 08:12 AM

Sausage? Australian politics are weird.

theprestige · 31st October 2018, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

In the case of a spoiled ballot, what's the actual negative impact?

Well, there's the loss of fuel and time that accompanies the empty ritual. There's the opportunity cost, generally, of performing an empty ritual when the same effect could be achieved by simply doing anything else with your day.

Quote:

A spoiled paper gives a much clearer message than simply not turning up at the polling station.

This seems unnecessarily patronizing. You've decided for me what my non-vote is supposed to mean. You've decided for me what is the best way for me to achieve that meaning. And you've passed a law making it criminal for me not to do what you've decided is best for me. There's a lot of negative impact wrapped up in that attitude towards other people.

Sideroxylon · 31st October 2018, 12:26 PM

Or you pay the fine and move on with life. We are overall less hung up on ideas of small government, interference in citizens’ lives, and tax obligations as long as there is the perception of a greater social good. At this point in time we accept obligatory voting as part of our social contract.

dudalb · 31st October 2018, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Yeah, we forgive the NYT for that goof. They are, after all, writing for an American audience, and America doesn't have an equivalent to the classic Aussie sausage. So they substitute a term that is close enough to get the message across.

If the Aussie Sausage is just the British "Banger"they are available in the US at the fancy gourmet Grocery stores and British themed Restaurants.

BTW I am betting that Aussies visitng the United States get a few laughs out of the "Outback Steakhouse" restaurant chain....

dudalb · 31st October 2018, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dabop

Our local Bunnings has about one a month, as does the footy club, and there is one every Saturday morning at the shopping center
Sausage sizzles are an Aussie tradition at fundraisers/sporting events/wherever else groups of people congregate

Sounds very similar to the "Tailgate Parties" at US Football games.

dudalb · 31st October 2018, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by MikeG

The point being that if someone doesn't want to vote but feels forced to by the fine, then the outcome is generally spoiled ballot papers or a donkey vote........in which case there is actually a negative in forcing those people to have voted in the first place.

That is my problem with manadatory voting: if somebody is not interested in politics he will be casting a vote based on total ignorance or anger at being forced to vote, and either way it's probably better if he does not vote at all.
I have never seen a convincing defense of manadatory voting,though some of the Aussies try.

dudalb · 31st October 2018, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Dabop

No there is BBQ sauce on them- ketchup is practically unheard of here
(some degenerates will put tomato sauce on them, some actually put mustard on them- these people should immediately be banned from voting for life!!!!!)

eta
a perfect sausage sizzle sanga
https://i.postimg.cc/YCHz7m87/sausage-sizzle.png
sausage,bbq sauce and onion

Nearest thing to that we have the US is the Chicago Style Hot Dog, which is a Hot DOg with a Garden of veggies on it.

smartcooky · 31st October 2018, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage.

Kangaroo meat?

30th October 2018, 10:13 PM	#1
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,605	NYT: What voting is like in Australia Australia Tells America: Here’s How to Fix Your Voting System The headline is a little misleading, since no-one here is telling America how to fix its voting system. But there are a few things about voting in Australia explained. Quote: The dirty work of democracy is often compared to the making of sausages, but Australians almost take that maxim literally — turning Election Day into a countrywide barbecue, in which the grilling of hot dogs is optional but voting is compulsory. More than 96 percent of eligible Australians are enrolled to vote. Of those, more than 90 percent typically turn out to cast ballots for a federal election, far more than the 55 percent of eligible Americans who participated in the 2016 presidential election. Australians are induced to vote with both sticks and carrots. Shirkers can be fined up to nearly 80 Australian dollars if they fail to show at the polls. But voting, which always takes place on a Saturday, is also made easy and efficient, and is often accompanied by a community barbecue that includes eating what locals affectionately call “democracy sausages.” As Americans prepare to vote in the midterm elections, we asked our readers in Australia to share their experiences and feelings about compulsory voting and explain the ins and outs of the process.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

30th October 2018, 11:01 PM	#2
deverett Scholar Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 59	"grilling of hotdogs" ?
deverett Scholar Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 59

30th October 2018, 11:14 PM	#3
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,605	Originally Posted by deverett "grilling of hotdogs" ? Yeah, we forgive the NYT for that goof. They are, after all, writing for an American audience, and America doesn't have an equivalent to the classic Aussie sausage. So they substitute a term that is close enough to get the message across.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe

30th October 2018, 11:22 PM	#4
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 6,430	More details here.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

30th October 2018, 11:54 PM	#5
fromdownunder Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,486	What is this "Democracy Sausage" of which they speak? I have never heard this phrase used in 50 years of voting, Federal, State and local. I am certainly familiar with Sausage Sizzles, which are everywhere on a Saturday including outside supermarkets and shopping complexes, on beaches, in backyards (I was eating sausages in Bread over 60 years ago), and on election days as local community fundraisers. But Democracy Sausage? It was, is and always will be a Sausage Sizzle, and is not even close to defining snags eaten outside a Polling Booth on election days. Some people vote early, and don't have breakfast just thinking they will grab a sausage and a Coffee at the Community Hall/School, RSL etc. That is the tradition. Norm
	__________________ Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain

31st October 2018, 12:25 AM	#6
MikeG Now. Do it now. Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,804	Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting. Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage.
	__________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

31st October 2018, 12:39 AM	#7
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,686	Originally Posted by MikeG Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting. The reality is that compulsory voting is a permanent fixture in Australia. We have compulsory taxation and compulsory compliance with the law. Some don’t vote, don’t pay taxes and break the law. They face the consequences, a very minor fine in the case of not voting. I’m not sure of the effect of donkey voting, but I’m pretty convinced it is minor. In almost every case one of the two major parties win in the lower house. If the practice of voting 1,2,3 etc down the ballot paper was prevalent I think you would see far more minor parties and independents get up (yes, I know it’s complicated by the preferential system).
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st October 2018, 12:50 AM	#8
MikeG Now. Do it now. Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,804	The point being that if someone doesn't want to vote but feels forced to by the fine, then the outcome is generally spoiled ballot papers or a donkey vote........in which case there is actually a negative in forcing those people to have voted in the first place.
	__________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

31st October 2018, 12:50 AM	#9
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State. Posts: 19,222	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Australia Tells America: Here’s How to Fix Your Voting System The headline is a little misleading, since no-one here is telling America how to fix its voting system. But there are a few things about voting in Australia explained. Oh my gawd, there is ketchup on those sausages. You people are animals.

31st October 2018, 12:54 AM	#10
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,686	Originally Posted by MikeG The point being that if someone doesn't want to vote but feels forced to by the fine, then the outcome is generally spoiled ballot papers or a donkey vote........in which case there is actually a negative in forcing those people to have voted in the first place. Do you have evidence for this? I doubt it is correct. In my experience reluctant voters grab the voting guide of their least despised party and follow that. ETA if a reluctant voter wanted simply to spoil their vote they would vote informal. After all, any blind, or donkey, vote would still elect a politician. Yet we know informal votes are very few. In the recent Wentworth by election, they were below 1%. No, I think when people are compelled to vote, they almost always take it seriously.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill Last edited by lionking; 31st October 2018 at 01:04 AM.

31st October 2018, 02:05 AM	#11
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 29,949	Originally Posted by MikeG The point being that if someone doesn't want to vote but feels forced to by the fine, then the outcome is generally spoiled ballot papers or a donkey vote........in which case there is actually a negative in forcing those people to have voted in the first place. In the case of a spoiled ballot, what's the actual negative impact? A spoiled paper gives a much clearer message than simply not turning up at the polling station. Dave
	__________________ Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad

31st October 2018, 02:19 AM	#12
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,686	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers In the case of a spoiled ballot, what's the actual negative impact? A spoiled paper gives a much clearer message than simply not turning up at the polling station. Dave That’s true, but it happens so rarely it makes the news, like the voter in the Wentworth by election who crossed out all other candidates and put Turnbull’s name in. Took some effort. Yes, informal (spoiled) votes is an issue, but not a big one
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st October 2018, 02:28 AM	#13
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,686	Okay, I did underestimate the total informal vote. Over the nation at the last election it was 5%. This, of course, includes simple mistakes, like someone who only puts in the first preference and not others, and people who put in A B C rather than 1 2 3. So bigger than I guesstimated, but still not a major issue in my view.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st October 2018, 03:02 AM	#14
Information Analyst Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 10,018	Originally Posted by deverett "grilling of hotdogs" ? Also my initial incredulity...

31st October 2018, 03:53 AM	#15
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 21,328	Originally Posted by MikeG Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting. Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage. In preference voting Donkey Votes can be dealt with by randomising the order of candidates on different papers.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

31st October 2018, 03:56 AM	#16
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 21,328	Originally Posted by lionking The reality is that compulsory voting is a permanent fixture in Australia. We have compulsory taxation and compulsory compliance with the law. Some don’t vote, don’t pay taxes and break the law. They face the consequences, a very minor fine in the case of not voting. I’m not sure of the effect of donkey voting, but I’m pretty convinced it is minor. In almost every case one of the two major parties win in the lower house. If the practice of voting 1,2,3 etc down the ballot paper was prevalent I think you would see far more minor parties and independents get up (yes, I know it’s complicated by the preferential system). Agreed. Certainly in Ireland (which uses PR/STV) it's not an issue.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

31st October 2018, 04:00 AM	#17
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,686	Originally Posted by catsmate In preference voting Donkey Votes can be dealt with by randomising the order of candidates on different papers. They do that here. There is a ballot to decide order, otherwise there would be a series of Aaron Aardvarks candidates or Aaussie Advance parties.....
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st October 2018, 04:44 AM	#18
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 10,999	IIRC the reason for the random allocation of ballots was precisely because of that.
	__________________

31st October 2018, 05:01 AM	#19
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,643	Originally Posted by MikeG Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting. So we run with a preferential voting system that requires you to number each choice from one to however many candidates there are and your least prefered choice. A donkey vote is when you apathetically number down the page. A percentage of people will do that. Quote: Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage. When they are packed with crocodile or kangaroo.
	__________________ Click here to help our friend Foolmewunz and his family in his health crisis Last edited by Sideroxylon; 31st October 2018 at 05:35 AM.

31st October 2018, 05:16 AM	#20
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,458	Originally Posted by MikeG Tell us about "Donkey Votes", and the importance of position on the ballot paper in a system of compulsory voting. Then tell us how an Aussie sausage isn't just an English sausage. Given the position is randomised before printing it has little to no effect. And an Aussie sausage has more sawdust and less meat than an English one.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.

31st October 2018, 05:17 AM	#21
SuburbanTurkey Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Boston, USA Posts: 2,283	While it is pretty clear that there is some serious work being done in some states to reduce voter participation, the culture of voter participation in the US is pretty weak. I live in Massachusetts, which makes it very easy and convenient to vote. You can vote by mail, you can vote early (polls open every day near me for two weeks prior to election), the poll itself is open more than 12 hours on election day, and it is within walking distance of my apartment. Even still, voter participation on presidential election cycles is about 75%, and only 50% on non-presidential elections. People just aren't motivated to vote, especially for the unsexy "off-year" elections. https://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/elev...rnoutstats.htm
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 31st October 2018 at 05:19 AM.

31st October 2018, 05:18 AM	#22
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles July Co-Pither, August TLA & Co-Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 52,488	Preferential voting alone would be a massive game changer in the US. Compulsory voting I'm not so sure about.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

31st October 2018, 05:19 AM	#23
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 910	Originally Posted by Craig4 Oh my gawd, there is ketchup on those sausages. You people are animals. No there is BBQ sauce on them- ketchup is practically unheard of here (some degenerates will put tomato sauce on them, some actually put mustard on them- these people should immediately be banned from voting for life!!!!!) eta a perfect sausage sizzle sanga sausage,bbq sauce and onion
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 910	__________________ It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader 'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin Last edited by Dabop; 31st October 2018 at 05:25 AM.

31st October 2018, 05:21 AM	#24
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 21,075	Here's the thing. Here in America the talking point of a 'silent majority,' the political equivalent of that one dofus in every online discussion who's main argument is "Well all the lurkers agree with me" is too common and well used of a talking point. It's a great way to claim a consensus or majority where none exist. Nobody can be sure what the majority of non-voting Americans really are going to vote on if we force them to the polls. We can make educated guesses based on demographics and polling and all that, but we can't be sure. I don't think anyone with skin the game really wants the risk of introducing a... what several tens of millions at the very least... players to the game under those circumstances.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

31st October 2018, 05:22 AM	#25
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,458	Originally Posted by Craig4 Oh my gawd, there is ketchup on those sausages. You people are animals. Tomato Sauce, while equally disgusting, is different from ketchup, it's much less sweet.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.

31st October 2018, 05:24 AM	#26
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,458	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Here's the thing. Here in America the talking point of a 'silent majority,' the political equivalent of that one dofus in every online discussion who's main argument is "Well all the lurkers agree with me" is too common and well used of a talking point. It's a great way to claim a consensus or majority where none exist. Nobody can be sure what the majority of non-voting Americans really are going to vote on if we force them to the polls. We can make educated guesses based on demographics and polling and all that, but we can't be sure. I don't think anyone with skin the game really wants the risk of introducing a... what several tens of millions at the very least... players to the game under those circumstances. Silent Majorities which are in actual fact a noisy minority exist everywhere in the world, that's not an American thing.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.

31st October 2018, 05:32 AM	#27
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,643	Originally Posted by Dabop No there is BBQ sauce on them- ketchup is practically unheard of here (some degenerates will put tomato sauce on them, some actually put mustard on them- these people should immediately be banned from voting for life!!!!!) eta a perfect sausage sizzle sanga https://i.postimg.cc/YCHz7m87/sausage-sizzle.png sausage,bbq sauce and onion Out the front of a Bunnings hardware store?
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31st October 2018, 05:37 AM	#28
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 910	Our local Bunnings has about one a month, as does the footy club, and there is one every Saturday morning at the shopping center Sausage sizzles are an Aussie tradition at fundraisers/sporting events/wherever else groups of people congregate
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 910	__________________ It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader 'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin

31st October 2018, 06:41 AM	#29
fagin Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: As far away from casebro as possible. Posts: 7,070	In NZ as well. Generally using the lowest grade 'sausage' ever. Disgusting things, although I admit I've eaten my fair share.
	__________________ There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

31st October 2018, 07:03 AM	#30
MikeG Now. Do it now. Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,804	Originally Posted by Dabop ......a perfect sausage sizzle sanga ........ sausage,bbq sauce and onion White bread! Seek help.......
	__________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

31st October 2018, 07:11 AM	#31
fagin Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: As far away from casebro as possible. Posts: 7,070	Originally Posted by MikeG White bread! Seek help....... It's a rule. To go with the shonky 'sausage'.
	__________________ There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

31st October 2018, 07:23 AM	#32
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,458	Originally Posted by MikeG White bread! Seek help....... I don't think you get the inherent Cut-me-own-throat dibblerishness of this food.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.

31st October 2018, 08:12 AM	#33
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles July Co-Pither, August TLA & Co-Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 52,488	Sausage? Australian politics are weird.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

31st October 2018, 08:48 AM	#34
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,518	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers In the case of a spoiled ballot, what's the actual negative impact? Well, there's the loss of fuel and time that accompanies the empty ritual. There's the opportunity cost, generally, of performing an empty ritual when the same effect could be achieved by simply doing anything else with your day. Quote: A spoiled paper gives a much clearer message than simply not turning up at the polling station. This seems unnecessarily patronizing. You've decided for me what my non-vote is supposed to mean. You've decided for me what is the best way for me to achieve that meaning. And you've passed a law making it criminal for me not to do what you've decided is best for me. There's a lot of negative impact wrapped up in that attitude towards other people.

31st October 2018, 12:26 PM	#35
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 21,643	Or you pay the fine and move on with life. We are overall less hung up on ideas of small government, interference in citizens’ lives, and tax obligations as long as there is the perception of a greater social good. At this point in time we accept obligatory voting as part of our social contract.
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