NYT: What voting is like in Australia - Page 10

novaphile · 7th March 2019, 09:12 PM

Just like in the USA, it's hard when the two major parties are both right wing.

arthwollipot · 7th March 2019, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting.

But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case.

No-one has claimed that compulsory voting always results in good policy. What we're claiming is that it results in better, fairer, and more inclusive elections.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality?

Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if you actually make arguments that address the claims rather than making **** up?

arthwollipot · 7th March 2019, 09:22 PM

I wonder if theprestige even read the two articles I posted. What am I talking about? Of course he didn't.

lionking · 7th March 2019, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia.

But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them.

Oh this is too ridiculous for words. Your voting system produced President Trump. So it is a stupid system by definition, right?

novaphile · 7th March 2019, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Oh this is too ridiculous for words. Your voting system produced President Trump. So it is a stupid system by definition, right?

Now that, we can all agree on.

Norman Alexander · 7th March 2019, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia.

But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them.

As I asked previously: What makes you think they are linked? Voting gets you a government that comes with a set of policies that are a mix of good and bad. You get to vote on the package, not the line-by-line items. Offshore processing was one of those policies that has gone rotten and become a stinky mess for both parties here.

Originally Posted by theprestige

It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting.

But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case.

Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality?

Well, let's look at it, shall we? We have offshore processing of refugees, a policy that is now irradiated troll-***** for all political parties.

Our current government has been trying to say it is good and to make it work...and has failed abjectly because the person in charge is a ****-wit Brussels sprout.

However if it was voluntary voting, there's a high probability this policy would continue. Because, like happens in the USA, if it is voluntary then the turnout is a lot lower, and there are still a bunch of sad people here who actually like Mr Brussels Sprout putting all brown Muslims in hell-holes, not just refugees, and would vote for him solely to keep that specific policy in place regardless of anything else. Fine people on both sides, don't you know.

But the government WILL be voted out in the very near future based on this plus a myriad of other shortcomings. They will be voted out because ALL of the Australian voters will be letting them know because mandatory voting means about 95% of us will vote, not just the sad troll bigots.

Norman Alexander · 7th March 2019, 10:10 PM

Incidentally, you need to be careful to say "offshore detention" as opposed to "offshore processing". Words matter. I've assumed (possibly mistakenly) that you meant the former. The latter is actually a potential solution.

arthwollipot · 7th March 2019, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Incidentally, you need to be careful to say "offshore detention" as opposed to "offshore processing". Words matter. I've assumed (possibly mistakenly) that you meant the former. The latter is actually a potential solution.

To be fair, I was the first one to use the phrase "offshore processing", and your point is well-taken.

rjh01 · 7th March 2019, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Just like in America, mutatis mutandi. How many election cycles has it been in Australia, since "offshore processing of refugees" first became policy?

The problem has nothing to do with the voting system. The actual reason for offshore detention camps is the fact that many Australians are racists. Politicians from all the major parties must not upset these racists or they may be voted out of office. It would not matter what voting system we have.

Remember between 1901 - 1972 Australia had the White Australia policy.

Roboramma · 8th March 2019, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia.

But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them.

In order to say that the camps are the result of compulsory voting, it needs to be the case that in the absence of compulsory voting, the camps wouldn't exist.

I find that highly unlikely.

arthwollipot · 8th March 2019, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

In order to say that the camps are the result of compulsory voting, it needs to be the case that in the absence of compulsory voting, the camps wouldn't exist.

I find that highly unlikely.

I would like to point out that America doesn't have compulsory voting, and also locks up refugees.

I think this shows that the connection theprestige is desperately trying to make is spurious.

elgarak · 9th March 2019, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting.

But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case.

Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality?

I need to point out that there's a lot more difference between voting in the USA and Australia than merely compulsory vs. voluntary. If you want to see the effect of the latter, compare countries that differ only in that aspect. Say, like Germany (which does NOT have compulsory voting) with Australia or Belgium.

My first gut instinct is that the effects of compulsory vs. voluntary are not very high compared to other differences in voting.

arthwollipot · 10th March 2019, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by elgarak

I need to point out that there's a lot more difference between voting in the USA and Australia than merely compulsory vs. voluntary. If you want to see the effect of the latter, compare countries that differ only in that aspect. Say, like Germany (which does NOT have compulsory voting) with Australia or Belgium.

My first gut instinct is that the effects of compulsory vs. voluntary are not very high compared to other differences in voting.

Well obviously the biggest difference is in the rate of voter turnout, which in Australia (as has been pointed out) is around 90% of the adult population submitting a countable vote. Compulsory voting surveys a larger proportion of the population of a country.

psionl0 · 11th March 2019, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Well obviously the biggest difference is in the rate of voter turnout, which in Australia (as has been pointed out) is around 90% of the adult population submitting a countable vote. Compulsory voting surveys a larger proportion of the population of a country.

I think that elgarak is referring to America's FPTP and WTA electoral college system. Both are major disincentives to people who don't wish to vote for the majority candidate and even if voting were compulsory, they wouldn't produce a democratic result.

casebro · 11th March 2019, 05:33 AM

I suspect that the demographics of those that don't vote leans Democratic Party. So compulsory voting will give the Dems a higher percentage of increase than letting illegals vote.

So, what do the two parties say about compulsory voting? Anybody ever hear of a poll "among those who have no intention of voting,....." ?

arthwollipot · 11th March 2019, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I think that elgarak is referring to America's FPTP and WTA electoral college system. Both are major disincentives to people who don't wish to vote for the majority candidate and even if voting were compulsory, they wouldn't produce a democratic result.

Yes, that's a fair point.

If I was Founding Fathering a country, and I wanted it to look democratic but actually not be, America would be a great model. I think that if they wanted to really fix their system, they'd have to throw out pretty much everything from the Constitution down, and rebuild the lot. Which of course is impractical, and could never really be done, so the best they can do is patch it up with fair redistricting and campaign finance reform and so forth.

psionl0 · 11th March 2019, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I think that if they wanted to really fix their system, they'd have to throw out pretty much everything from the Constitution down, and rebuild the lot.

You don't have to go that far. The problem of rogue states disenfranchising voters and gerrymandering districts would disappear if the federal government had the authority to make laws about elections as it is in Australia.

Norman Alexander · 11th March 2019, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You don't have to go that far. The problem of rogue states disenfranchising voters and gerrymandering districts would disappear if the federal government had the authority to make laws about elections as it is in Australia.

GAH!! States Rights! Federal overreach!! They dun come fer owr gunz!! *SPIT! and dang*

arthwollipot · 11th March 2019, 08:36 PM

Note to our American friends. You don't always come across like this to us, but some of you do sometimes.

arthwollipot · 11th April 2019, 10:03 PM

So an election has been called. Government has "gone into Caretaker" which essentially means that the politicians stop governing and start campaigning. The campaign will last until election day, and then the new government will take over, and not have to worry about campaigning until right before the next election.

That's the other nice thing about Australian elections. Campaigns are limited. This campaign is going to be a nasty one, but it least it doesn't go on all year.

7th March 2019, 09:12 PM	#361
novaphile Quester of Doglets Moderator Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,031	Just like in the USA, it's hard when the two major parties are both right wing.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

7th March 2019, 09:31 PM	#364
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 44,741	Originally Posted by theprestige Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia. But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them. Oh this is too ridiculous for words. Your voting system produced President Trump. So it is a stupid system by definition, right?
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

7th March 2019, 09:36 PM	#365
novaphile Quester of Doglets Moderator Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,031	Originally Posted by lionking Oh this is too ridiculous for words. Your voting system produced President Trump. So it is a stupid system by definition, right? Now that, we can all agree on.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

7th March 2019, 10:06 PM	#366
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 6,432	Originally Posted by theprestige Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia. But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them. As I asked previously: What makes you think they are linked? Voting gets you a government that comes with a set of policies that are a mix of good and bad. You get to vote on the package, not the line-by-line items. Offshore processing was one of those policies that has gone rotten and become a stinky mess for both parties here. Originally Posted by theprestige It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting. But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case. Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality? Well, let's look at it, shall we? We have offshore processing of refugees, a policy that is now irradiated troll-*** for all political parties. Our current government has been trying to say it is good and to make it work...and has failed abjectly because the person in charge is a -wit Brussels sprout. However if it was voluntary voting, there's a high probability this policy would continue. Because, like happens in the USA, if it is voluntary then the turnout is a lot lower, and there are still a bunch of sad people here who actually like Mr Brussels Sprout putting all** brown Muslims in hell-holes, not just refugees, and would vote for him solely to keep that specific policy in place regardless of anything else. Fine people on both sides, don't you know. But the government WILL be voted out in the very near future based on this plus a myriad of other shortcomings. They will be voted out because ALL of the Australian voters will be letting them know because mandatory voting means about 95% of us will vote, not just the sad troll bigots.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015} Last edited by Norman Alexander; 7th March 2019 at 10:07 PM.

7th March 2019, 10:10 PM	#367
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 6,432	Incidentally, you need to be careful to say "offshore detention" as opposed to "offshore processing". Words matter. I've assumed (possibly mistakenly) that you meant the former. The latter is actually a potential solution.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

7th March 2019, 09:16 PM	#362
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	Originally Posted by theprestige It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting. But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case. No-one has claimed that compulsory voting always results in good policy. What we're claiming is that it results in better, fairer, and more inclusive elections. Originally Posted by theprestige Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality? Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if you actually make arguments that address the claims rather than making **** up?

7th March 2019, 09:22 PM	#363
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	I wonder if theprestige even read the two articles I posted. What am I talking about? Of course he didn't.

7th March 2019, 10:16 PM	#368
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Incidentally, you need to be careful to say "offshore detention" as opposed to "offshore processing". Words matter. I've assumed (possibly mistakenly) that you meant the former. The latter is actually a potential solution. To be fair, I was the first one to use the phrase "offshore processing", and your point is well-taken.

7th March 2019, 11:35 PM	#369
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 24,998	Originally Posted by theprestige Just like in America, mutatis mutandi. How many election cycles has it been in Australia, since "offshore processing of refugees" first became policy? The problem has nothing to do with the voting system. The actual reason for offshore detention camps is the fact that many Australians are racists. Politicians from all the major parties must not upset these racists or they may be voted out of office. It would not matter what voting system we have. Remember between 1901 - 1972 Australia had the White Australia policy.
	__________________ This signature is for rent.

8th March 2019, 03:38 AM	#370
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 13,187	Originally Posted by theprestige Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia. But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them. In order to say that the camps are the result of compulsory voting, it needs to be the case that in the absence of compulsory voting, the camps wouldn't exist. I find that highly unlikely.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

8th March 2019, 05:15 PM	#371
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	Originally Posted by Roboramma In order to say that the camps are the result of compulsory voting, it needs to be the case that in the absence of compulsory voting, the camps wouldn't exist. I find that highly unlikely. I would like to point out that America doesn't have compulsory voting, and also locks up refugees. I think this shows that the connection theprestige is desperately trying to make is spurious.

9th March 2019, 06:31 AM	#372
elgarak Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 4,430	Originally Posted by theprestige It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting. But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case. Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality? I need to point out that there's a lot more difference between voting in the USA and Australia than merely compulsory vs. voluntary. If you want to see the effect of the latter, compare countries that differ only in that aspect. Say, like Germany (which does NOT have compulsory voting) with Australia or Belgium. My first gut instinct is that the effects of compulsory vs. voluntary are not very high compared to other differences in voting.
elgarak Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 4,430

10th March 2019, 06:07 PM	#373
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	Originally Posted by elgarak I need to point out that there's a lot more difference between voting in the USA and Australia than merely compulsory vs. voluntary. If you want to see the effect of the latter, compare countries that differ only in that aspect. Say, like Germany (which does NOT have compulsory voting) with Australia or Belgium. My first gut instinct is that the effects of compulsory vs. voluntary are not very high compared to other differences in voting. Well obviously the biggest difference is in the rate of voter turnout, which in Australia (as has been pointed out) is around 90% of the adult population submitting a countable vote. Compulsory voting surveys a larger proportion of the population of a country.

11th March 2019, 01:10 AM	#374
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,189	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Well obviously the biggest difference is in the rate of voter turnout, which in Australia (as has been pointed out) is around 90% of the adult population submitting a countable vote. Compulsory voting surveys a larger proportion of the population of a country. I think that elgarak is referring to America's FPTP and WTA electoral college system. Both are major disincentives to people who don't wish to vote for the majority candidate and even if voting were compulsory, they wouldn't produce a democratic result.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

11th March 2019, 05:33 AM	#375
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 17,143	I suspect that the demographics of those that don't vote leans Democratic Party. So compulsory voting will give the Dems a higher percentage of increase than letting illegals vote. So, what do the two parties say about compulsory voting? Anybody ever hear of a poll "among those who have no intention of voting,....." ?
	__________________ Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook. Last edited by casebro; 11th March 2019 at 05:35 AM.

11th March 2019, 05:47 PM	#376
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	Originally Posted by psionl0 I think that elgarak is referring to America's FPTP and WTA electoral college system. Both are major disincentives to people who don't wish to vote for the majority candidate and even if voting were compulsory, they wouldn't produce a democratic result. Yes, that's a fair point. If I was Founding Fathering a country, and I wanted it to look democratic but actually not be, America would be a great model. I think that if they wanted to really fix their system, they'd have to throw out pretty much everything from the Constitution down, and rebuild the lot. Which of course is impractical, and could never really be done, so the best they can do is patch it up with fair redistricting and campaign finance reform and so forth.

11th March 2019, 07:22 PM	#377
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 15,189	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I think that if they wanted to really fix their system, they'd have to throw out pretty much everything from the Constitution down, and rebuild the lot. You don't have to go that far. The problem of rogue states disenfranchising voters and gerrymandering districts would disappear if the federal government had the authority to make laws about elections as it is in Australia.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

11th March 2019, 08:34 PM	#378
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 6,432	Originally Posted by psionl0 You don't have to go that far. The problem of rogue states disenfranchising voters and gerrymandering districts would disappear if the federal government had the authority to make laws about elections as it is in Australia. GAH!! States Rights! Federal overreach!! They dun come fer owr gunz!! SPIT! and dang
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

11th March 2019, 08:36 PM	#379
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	Note to our American friends. You don't always come across like this to us, but some of you do sometimes.

11th April 2019, 10:03 PM	#380
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 64,690	So an election has been called. Government has "gone into Caretaker" which essentially means that the politicians stop governing and start campaigning. The campaign will last until election day, and then the new government will take over, and not have to worry about campaigning until right before the next election. That's the other nice thing about Australian elections. Campaigns are limited. This campaign is going to be a nasty one, but it least it doesn't go on all year.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe