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#241 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,187
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Yeah, that's the weird thing, people are complaining both about the fact that mandatory voting is enforced (otherwise there's nothing to complain about) and that it's not enforced.
Sometimes people obey the law just because it's the law and they have respect for the social contract. Remove the penalty, or make it so minor that it doesn't matter, and they will continue to obey that law. Remove the law and behaviour changes because the social norm has changed. Seems pretty striaghtforward to me. Australia has a social agreement, enshrined in law, that everyone should vote. And people respect that. It seems to be working pretty well and no one is complaining about it. All of the objections to it seem pretty counterfactual to me. We don't have to imagine what would happen with this system ("everyone will just draw dick pics!") we can see, and it turns out almost everyone makes a legitimate vote. And those who really don't want to are barely even inconvenienced: they just have to either make up an excuse, or if they want to keep their principles intact and don't want to lie about why they didn't vote, just pay $20. The negative consequences are tiny, and the positive consequences? Democracy. Seems pretty good to me. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#242 |
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,865
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I personally don't know of an Australian who's actually been to one, if they exist I'd love to hear their opinions of it because I've been a couple of times and it's an OK mid-level steak and burger joint. Not seeing the "Aussie Theme" however, unless it's the use of the words "g'day", "mate" and "barbie" on the menu. You can't even get beetroot on your burger.
The only thing Australian about the place is it's a gun-free zone. ![]() |
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#243 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,350
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#244 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,432
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There is nothing wrong particularly with the food or presentation at an Outback Steakhouse. But there is nothing remotely "Australian" about it, just a bunch of Aussie-sounding names attached haphazardly to miscellaneous dishes. Also, "Modern Australian" dining is much more based on a mash-up of Middle Eastern, far Eastern and Italian fare (seriously!), not burgers.
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#245 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#246 |
Adelaidean
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,999
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Yeah, those people are wrong.
Well we are a lazy bunch.
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A donkey vote is an actual vote since there's no way to determine if someone is just filling in the ballot because they can't be bothered making a choice or if that's a voter's actual choice. |
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#247 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,189
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He might have difficulty getting such a law passed through the Senate (and now the House of Representatives since he lost his majority).
The main reason why governments are reluctant to remove compulsion from voting is because they can't predict how it would affect them at the polls. If it was seen as a crass attempt to lower the non-conservative vote (which it would be) then Morrison could suffer an even bigger backlash at the next election. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#248 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,741
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#249 |
Adelaidean
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,999
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#250 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,747
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#251 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,494
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No. You must register to vote once you turn 18. Don't ask if, or how, it is monitored, I have absolutely no idea. https://www.aec.gov.au/Voting/files/...arge-print.pdf Norm |
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#252 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,330
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There are multiple burdens of being a citizen. Paying taxes, jury duty, having bombs dropped on you when your nation goes to war, and, apparently in Australia, having to go to the ballot box every once in a while or facing a small fine.
I don't see that as an unreasonable burden, but perhaps one could persuade his fellow citizens that it is. Or emigrate, or engage in the fine tradition of civil disobedience. |
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#253 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,819
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I have no trouble with being held to account for the responsibilities that must be exercised alongside the rights inherent in a democracy: The former is forgotten when people blather on about only the latter.
Neither do I have any trouble with enforcement for the greater good, any more than I have trouble with other laws such that stipulate "you shall" or "you shall not" in the interests of a functioning democracy. The state isn't punishing laziness, it's punishing negligence, if that the path of justification you wish to pursue. |
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What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
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#254 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,690
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I think that the final word on the subject is that by pretty much every measure, Australia has a more functional democracy than America does.
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#255 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,432
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#256 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,295
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I would prefer to put a positive aspect on it and say they were elderly and remembering when resident Brits were allowed to vote. They were a few years out of date; they were quite sweet though. So yes you are right, but just perhaps I like the well meaning but wrong people more.
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#257 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#258 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,432
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#259 |
Now. Do it now.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#260 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#261 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,494
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Kerr did what he did in 1975. Something had to be done, as the Government was running out of money. I think we should get over it as already said, it is unlikely to ever happen again. The Whitlam Government was like a group if Kids in a lolly shop who had previously been out of power for so long (23 years) that many of the Ministers did not even understand HOW to Govern. The voters did in fact agree with what Kerr did and the result was an electoral blood bath for Labor.
Whitlam actually told the Government Whip in the Senate that the election to come would be "his greatest victory" and he was not overly unhappy with the events of that day. His brilliant mind had started to lose its grip on reality in the crisis. Labor Senators went into the chamber that afternoon, and voted for supply thinking that they had won, because they were not told by Whitlam what had happened. The voters agreed with Kerr. That is the bottom line. Norm |
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#262 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,432
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The Dismissal (TM) is a separate topic to this, I think.
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#263 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,747
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#264 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
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#265 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#266 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
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Posts: 64,690
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And the immigrant concentrations camps are also a real credit to the voting public of America. Those who can be bothered to vote, that is. Who aren't being actively suppressed because they're in a minority. Or subject to arbitrary gerrymandering. Those who have health care. And standardised education. And who aren't being poisoned by their water supply.
Actually it seems that the immigrant concentration camps are a credit to only some of the voting public of America. Why don't you do something about that? You have an opportunity, tomorrow. Are you going to vote? That's what I said. I don't know off the top of my head of a second situation where the Crown has been directly relevant to the functioning of the Australian Government, other than the one that has already been brought up. I'd welcome a correction, though. |
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#267 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,432
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#268 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain |
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#269 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#270 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,432
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#271 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,747
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America doesn't have compulsory voting. What's Australia's excuse?
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Then there's the Reserve powers, which are a royal sword of Damocles hanging over your head at all times. |
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#272 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,819
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What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
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#273 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,432
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#274 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
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Posts: 64,690
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Politicians aren't perfect, and sometimes enact terrible policies. Both of our major parties are responsible for offshore detention.
Shows how much you know. The Queen's representative rubber-stamps the appointments. The Governor-General almost never makes decisions, and almost never directly intervenes in the operation of government, and he certainly has no active command over the armed forces. No more so than the American President does, despite being the Commander-In-Chief. Can you imagine what it'd be like with Trump actively leading the American military? It turns out that General Sir Peter Cosgrove was indeed a military man, and commander of the peacekeeping force in Timor-Leste before being made Chief of Army in 2000 and Chief of the Defence Force in 2002, before retiring from active duty in 2006. Other Governors-General have not served in the military and it certainly isn't required for the office. We've already talked about that. It's happened once in our history. And while yes, it's possible that another Constitutional Crisis may occur in the future, there are a lot of reasons to believe that 1975 was a unique situation. There's actually a strong Republican movement in Australia, which is about due to come to a head again some time soon. Not soon enough in my opinion, but there you go. |
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#275 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,741
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Leaving aside the emotional and ridiculous use of the words “concentration camps”, I would have thought our system of turning back boats, off-shore processing and not allowing people who use this method to settle in Australia would be the wet dream of US conservatives.
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#276 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,432
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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#277 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
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Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something. - Randall Munroe |
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#278 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,187
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What point are you trying to make with this comment? That compulsory voting leads to people with the wrong views voting, leading to bad policy?
There's nothing about democracy that guarantees good policy, but I'm surprised if you are trying to argue that more people voting a bad thing. That's not to say that that argument is necessarily a bad one, just that I'd be surprised if you hold that view. Do you? If not, I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#279 |
Up The Irons
Tagger
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 34,458
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i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp. |
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#280 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18,017
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The biggest objection is voting (and choosing not to vote) is an act of expression. Forced voting is compelled speech by government and a restriction on expression. I generally don't think the government should do that.
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