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Old 4th November 2018, 06:27 PM   #241
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Kind of. It's more like "Mandatory voting works great because we don't have to actually enforce it".
Yeah, that's the weird thing, people are complaining both about the fact that mandatory voting is enforced (otherwise there's nothing to complain about) and that it's not enforced.

Sometimes people obey the law just because it's the law and they have respect for the social contract. Remove the penalty, or make it so minor that it doesn't matter, and they will continue to obey that law. Remove the law and behaviour changes because the social norm has changed.

Seems pretty striaghtforward to me. Australia has a social agreement, enshrined in law, that everyone should vote. And people respect that. It seems to be working pretty well and no one is complaining about it. All of the objections to it seem pretty counterfactual to me. We don't have to imagine what would happen with this system ("everyone will just draw dick pics!") we can see, and it turns out almost everyone makes a legitimate vote. And those who really don't want to are barely even inconvenienced: they just have to either make up an excuse, or if they want to keep their principles intact and don't want to lie about why they didn't vote, just pay $20.

The negative consequences are tiny, and the positive consequences? Democracy.

Seems pretty good to me.
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Old 4th November 2018, 06:41 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW I am betting that Aussies visitng the United States get a few laughs out of the "Outback Steakhouse" restaurant chain....
I personally don't know of an Australian who's actually been to one, if they exist I'd love to hear their opinions of it because I've been a couple of times and it's an OK mid-level steak and burger joint. Not seeing the "Aussie Theme" however, unless it's the use of the words "g'day", "mate" and "barbie" on the menu. You can't even get beetroot on your burger.

The only thing Australian about the place is it's a gun-free zone.

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Old 4th November 2018, 06:42 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Has any country in modern history instituted compulsory voting so we can look at a before and after for reference?
Brazil, 1988.
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Old 4th November 2018, 07:35 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
I personally don't know of an Australian who's actually been to one, if they exist I'd love to hear their opinions of it because I've been a couple of times and it's an OK mid-level steak and burger joint. Not seeing the "Aussie Theme" however, unless it's the use of the words "g'day", "mate" and "barbie" on the menu. You can't even get beetroot on your burger.
There is nothing wrong particularly with the food or presentation at an Outback Steakhouse. But there is nothing remotely "Australian" about it, just a bunch of Aussie-sounding names attached haphazardly to miscellaneous dishes. Also, "Modern Australian" dining is much more based on a mash-up of Middle Eastern, far Eastern and Italian fare (seriously!), not burgers.

Quote:
The only thing Australian about the place is it's a gun-free zone.

Not touching that one with a ten-foot barge-pole.
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Old 4th November 2018, 07:43 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Also, "Modern Australian" dining is much more based on a mash-up of Middle Eastern, far Eastern and Italian fare (seriously!), not burgers.
Of course, the reason for this is our history of immigration.
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Old 4th November 2018, 09:32 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I went with my friend when he was going to vote and hung around outside, I was offered a sausage from the Barbie but said I wasn't eligible since I wasn't Australian and could not vote; this produced some consternation with people explaining to me that I did not need to be Australian to vote just resident, when I explained I was on holiday they still insisted anyone who visited the voting station on holiday was entitled to a sausage.
Yeah, those people are wrong.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I do. I think this legislation is the product of Australians who like the idea of voting and who don't trust their fellow citizens to like the idea as much as they do. They're comforted by the thought that their fellow citizens have to vote whether or not they're enthusiastic about it.
Well we are a lazy bunch.

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What do you think would happen if the Australian Prime Minister called a press conference tomorrow and said, "we Australians have a strong cultural value of voting in a democracy. It's one of the greatest things we as a people have to offer the world. Having a law to compel us to vote is insulting. The threat of government sanction is patronizing and unnecessary. Australians don't need to be told to vote. Australians don't need to be forced to vote. Even if there were no law, Australians would still go and vote, because participating in democracy is something we all believe in. Therefore, I am calling on the legislature to repeal this unnecessary and offensive law immediately. And I will see you all at the polls!"
Well right now my thoughts would be "why isn't Morrison proposing this himself since he's a member of parliament" and "is he really trying to win an election by expecting people to not vote?"

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I bet Australians would lose their minds at the thought of having an election without the government threatening them.
Probably not. Odds are it'd be one of the worst turnouts ever.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Regardless, whatever it was about to some nameless people who support it, the question of whether or not it has achieved a high percentage of voters (actually voting, not just "donkey" voting), has a answer, in the affirmative.
A donkey vote is an actual vote since there's no way to determine if someone is just filling in the ballot because they can't be bothered making a choice or if that's a voter's actual choice.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:39 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Well right now my thoughts would be "why isn't Morrison proposing this himself since he's a member of parliament" and "is he really trying to win an election by expecting people to not vote?"
He might have difficulty getting such a law passed through the Senate (and now the House of Representatives since he lost his majority).

The main reason why governments are reluctant to remove compulsion from voting is because they can't predict how it would affect them at the polls. If it was seen as a crass attempt to lower the non-conservative vote (which it would be) then Morrison could suffer an even bigger backlash at the next election.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:50 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
He might have difficulty getting such a law passed through the Senate (and now the House of Representatives since he lost his majority).

The main reason why governments are reluctant to remove compulsion from voting is because they can't predict how it would affect them at the polls. If it was seen as a crass attempt to lower the non-conservative vote (which it would be) then Morrison could suffer an even bigger backlash at the next election.
Yes, agreed.
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Old 5th November 2018, 06:09 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
He might have difficulty getting such a law passed through the Senate (and now the House of Representatives since he lost his majority).

The main reason why governments are reluctant to remove compulsion from voting is because they can't predict how it would affect them at the polls. If it was seen as a crass attempt to lower the non-conservative vote (which it would be) then Morrison could suffer an even bigger backlash at the next election.
I too agree with this.
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Old 5th November 2018, 09:58 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You are aware that if you don't want to vote in Australia, then you just don't register to vote, right?
Is that even legal, in Australia?
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:29 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Is that even legal, in Australia?

No. You must register to vote once you turn 18. Don't ask if, or how, it is monitored, I have absolutely no idea.

https://www.aec.gov.au/Voting/files/...arge-print.pdf

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Old 5th November 2018, 11:35 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Again with the patronizing. You've decided I'm lazy, and you've decided to use the state to punish my sin of laziness.


I would say that the great burden of being a citizen of a liberal democracy is being responsible for the actions of your government. A burden you can carry just as effectively by abstaining as by voting.
There are multiple burdens of being a citizen. Paying taxes, jury duty, having bombs dropped on you when your nation goes to war, and, apparently in Australia, having to go to the ballot box every once in a while or facing a small fine.

I don't see that as an unreasonable burden, but perhaps one could persuade his fellow citizens that it is. Or emigrate, or engage in the fine tradition of civil disobedience.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:37 PM   #253
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I have no trouble with being held to account for the responsibilities that must be exercised alongside the rights inherent in a democracy: The former is forgotten when people blather on about only the latter.

Neither do I have any trouble with enforcement for the greater good, any more than I have trouble with other laws such that stipulate "you shall" or "you shall not" in the interests of a functioning democracy.

The state isn't punishing laziness, it's punishing negligence, if that the path of justification you wish to pursue.
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:49 PM   #254
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I think that the final word on the subject is that by pretty much every measure, Australia has a more functional democracy than America does.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:17 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think that the final word on the subject is that by pretty much every measure, Australia has a more functional democracy than America does.
...apart from the Head Of State issue.

But that's likely a different topic.
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Old 5th November 2018, 03:20 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Yeah, those people are wrong.



Well we are a lazy bunch.



Well right now my thoughts would be "why isn't Morrison proposing this himself since he's a member of parliament" and "is he really trying to win an election by expecting people to not vote?"



Probably not. Odds are it'd be one of the worst turnouts ever.



A donkey vote is an actual vote since there's no way to determine if someone is just filling in the ballot because they can't be bothered making a choice or if that's a voter's actual choice.
I would prefer to put a positive aspect on it and say they were elderly and remembering when resident Brits were allowed to vote. They were a few years out of date; they were quite sweet though. So yes you are right, but just perhaps I like the well meaning but wrong people more.
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:11 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
...apart from the Head Of State issue.

But that's likely a different topic.
Well, yeah, but the Queen is almost completely irrelevant to the functioning of our government, so I tend to discount that issue.
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:39 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, yeah, but the Queen is almost completely irrelevant to the functioning of our government, so I tend to discount that issue.
11-11-75...?
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:55 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
11-11-75...?
..............was 43 years ago. Can you see that happening again, ever?
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:58 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
11-11-75...?
...is an exception. I said that she was almost completely irrelevant to the functioning of our government.
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Old 5th November 2018, 06:21 PM   #261
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Kerr did what he did in 1975. Something had to be done, as the Government was running out of money. I think we should get over it as already said, it is unlikely to ever happen again. The Whitlam Government was like a group if Kids in a lolly shop who had previously been out of power for so long (23 years) that many of the Ministers did not even understand HOW to Govern. The voters did in fact agree with what Kerr did and the result was an electoral blood bath for Labor.


Whitlam actually told the Government Whip in the Senate that the election to come would be "his greatest victory" and he was not overly unhappy with the events of that day. His brilliant mind had started to lose its grip on reality in the crisis. Labor Senators went into the chamber that afternoon, and voted for supply thinking that they had won, because they were not told by Whitlam what had happened.


The voters agreed with Kerr. That is the bottom line.


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Old 5th November 2018, 06:56 PM   #262
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The Dismissal (TM) is a separate topic to this, I think.
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Old 5th November 2018, 07:00 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think that the final word on the subject is that by pretty much every measure, Australia has a more functional democracy than America does.
Those immigrant concentration camps are a real credit to the voting public of Australia.
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Old 5th November 2018, 07:00 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The Dismissal (TM) is a separate topic to this, I think.

Then why did you bring it up?
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Old 5th November 2018, 07:01 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, yeah, but the Queen is almost completely irrelevant to the functioning of our government, so I tend to discount that issue.
"Almost"
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Old 5th November 2018, 07:10 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Those immigrant concentration camps are a real credit to the voting public of Australia.
And the immigrant concentrations camps are also a real credit to the voting public of America. Those who can be bothered to vote, that is. Who aren't being actively suppressed because they're in a minority. Or subject to arbitrary gerrymandering. Those who have health care. And standardised education. And who aren't being poisoned by their water supply.

Actually it seems that the immigrant concentration camps are a credit to only some of the voting public of America. Why don't you do something about that? You have an opportunity, tomorrow. Are you going to vote?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Almost"
That's what I said. I don't know off the top of my head of a second situation where the Crown has been directly relevant to the functioning of the Australian Government, other than the one that has already been brought up. I'd welcome a correction, though.
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Old 5th November 2018, 07:11 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Then why did you bring it up?
In response to the comment re Her Maj from Arthwollipot. It's a worthwhile discussion, but perhaps it deserves a thread of its own?
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Old 5th November 2018, 07:17 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
In response to the comment re Her Maj from Arthwollipot. It's a worthwhile discussion, but perhaps it deserves a thread of its own?

Yep. Happy to let it go for now.


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Old 5th November 2018, 07:22 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
In response to the comment re Her Maj from Arthwollipot. It's a worthwhile discussion, but perhaps it deserves a thread of its own?
You brought up the head of state, not me... #255

Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Yep. Happy to let it go for now.
Yep! Let's move on.
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Old 5th November 2018, 07:32 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You brought up the head of state, not me... #255

Yep! Let's move on.
Yeah, well...
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:00 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And the immigrant concentrations camps are also a real credit to the voting public of America. Those who can be bothered to vote, that is. Who aren't being actively suppressed because they're in a minority. Or subject to arbitrary gerrymandering. Those who have health care. And standardised education. And who aren't being poisoned by their water supply.
America doesn't have compulsory voting. What's Australia's excuse?

Quote:
That's what I said. I don't know off the top of my head of a second situation where the Crown has been directly relevant to the functioning of the Australian Government, other than the one that has already been brought up. I'd welcome a correction, though.
According to Wikipedia, the Queen's representative appoints your ambassadors and judges, and commands your armed forces. It seems to me that the Governor-General is directly relevant to your functioning all day, every day.

Then there's the Reserve powers, which are a royal sword of Damocles hanging over your head at all times.
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:07 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
America doesn't have compulsory voting. What's Australia's excuse?



According to Wikipedia, the Queen's representative appoints your ambassadors and judges, and commands your armed forces. It seems to me that the Governor-General is directly relevant to your functioning all day, every day.

Then there's the Reserve powers, which are a royal sword of Damocles hanging over your head at all times.
Let's get back to the topic, eh? How many strawmen's shifting goalposts can you fit through the eye of a camel on a needle?
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:38 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
America doesn't have compulsory voting. What's Australia's excuse?
It used to have voluntary voting but stopped that nonsense in 1924. With a consistent 95%-plus turnout since then, we think our election results more validly reflect the will of ALL the people.



And let me fix this for you:
Quote:
According to Wikipedia, the Queen's representative appoints your ambassadors and judges at the recommendation of the Prime Minister who he does not contradict, and commands is the titular head only of your armed forces. It seems to me as someone who has almost no idea how it works that the Governor-General is directly relevant to your functioning all day, every day. (Yes, the national political dialogue of concern is all about attending school fetes and opening art galleries.)

Then there's the Reserve powers, which are a royal sword of Damocles hanging over your head at all times which have not been used since 1975, i.e. for almost 43 years.
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:46 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
America doesn't have compulsory voting. What's Australia's excuse?
Politicians aren't perfect, and sometimes enact terrible policies. Both of our major parties are responsible for offshore detention.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
According to Wikipedia, the Queen's representative appoints your ambassadors and judges, and commands your armed forces. It seems to me that the Governor-General is directly relevant to your functioning all day, every day.
Shows how much you know. The Queen's representative rubber-stamps the appointments. The Governor-General almost never makes decisions, and almost never directly intervenes in the operation of government, and he certainly has no active command over the armed forces. No more so than the American President does, despite being the Commander-In-Chief. Can you imagine what it'd be like with Trump actively leading the American military?

It turns out that General Sir Peter Cosgrove was indeed a military man, and commander of the peacekeeping force in Timor-Leste before being made Chief of Army in 2000 and Chief of the Defence Force in 2002, before retiring from active duty in 2006. Other Governors-General have not served in the military and it certainly isn't required for the office.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then there's the Reserve powers, which are a royal sword of Damocles hanging over your head at all times.
We've already talked about that. It's happened once in our history. And while yes, it's possible that another Constitutional Crisis may occur in the future, there are a lot of reasons to believe that 1975 was a unique situation.

There's actually a strong Republican movement in Australia, which is about due to come to a head again some time soon. Not soon enough in my opinion, but there you go.
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:51 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Those immigrant concentration camps are a real credit to the voting public of Australia.
Leaving aside the emotional and ridiculous use of the words “concentration camps”, I would have thought our system of turning back boats, off-shore processing and not allowing people who use this method to settle in Australia would be the wet dream of US conservatives.
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:53 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Leaving aside the emotional and ridiculous use of the words “concentration camps”, I would have thought our system of turning back boats, off-shore processing and not allowing people who use this method to settle in Australia would be the wet dream of US conservatives.
Gawd, don't give them ideas...
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:55 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Gawd, don't give them ideas...
Too late. Turnbull already gave him the idea, as I have pointed out several times.
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:04 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Those immigrant concentration camps are a real credit to the voting public of Australia.
What point are you trying to make with this comment? That compulsory voting leads to people with the wrong views voting, leading to bad policy?

There's nothing about democracy that guarantees good policy, but I'm surprised if you are trying to argue that more people voting a bad thing.

That's not to say that that argument is necessarily a bad one, just that I'd be surprised if you hold that view. Do you?

If not, I don't really understand what you're trying to say here.
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:09 PM   #279
Damien Evans
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Those immigrant concentration camps are a real credit to the voting public of Australia.
Returned all those imprisoned immigrant children to their families yet?
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:45 AM   #280
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The biggest objection is voting (and choosing not to vote) is an act of expression. Forced voting is compelled speech by government and a restriction on expression. I generally don't think the government should do that.
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