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Old 7th November 2018, 12:31 PM   #321
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
You live in a society with many rules and obligations required for its smooth functioning, even in America that land of the free. Voting in Australia, as has been well described here, is a minor imposition for even the grumpiest curmudgeon.
Speaking as a grumpy curmudgeon, and an old one at that, we tend to be the ones demanding our right to cast a vote with no gainsaying. NOW!, you young whippersnapper!
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Old 7th November 2018, 03:47 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I do object to that. I regularly come out against democracy here
On the grounds that voting is compelled speech?

If so, why have you been acting as though there is something distinct about compulsory voting?
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Old 7th November 2018, 06:32 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
On the grounds that voting is compelled speech?

If so, why have you been acting as though there is something distinct about compulsory voting?
I object on several grounds.
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Old 7th November 2018, 07:18 PM   #324
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Hey now, here's a thing that never happens in Australian elections:

US midterm elections: Dead brothel owner Dennis Hof wins Nevada race for Republicans
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Old 7th November 2018, 08:25 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is too much distance between our positions to be justified in the common length of a forum post.
The cultural differences in approaches to civic duty, individual freedom, and goverment involvement are sufficient explanation for the difference in your preference to ours. There is no foundational argument that you could make to show that our system is objectively wrong and you know it.

It is also a fact that the American electoral system is disfunctioning while ours is highly functional.
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Old 7th November 2018, 08:53 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What does it express? Your disgust or disdain with the range and/or policies of candidates? Your laziness? Missed the bus? Forgot? How does not voting carry that expression you wish to convey to the government?
It is literally none of your business what I intend to express. I don't owe you an explanation. You are not entitled to only allow expressions that meet your idea usefulness.

Not only that, but freedom of expression is a lie if it doesn't also allow the freedom to not express.

There is no freedom to vote without the freedom to not vote.
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Old 7th November 2018, 08:58 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is literally none of your business what I intend to express. I don't owe you an explanation. You are not entitled to only allow expressions that meet your idea usefulness.

Not only that, but freedom of expression is a lie if it doesn't also allow the freedom to not express.

There is no freedom to vote without the freedom to not vote.
Australia gives you the freedom not to vote. You can submit an informal ballot. You are free to do that if that is what you wish. Personally, I feel that it's a pretty ****** thing to do, but you are free to do that.
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Old 7th November 2018, 09:05 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is literally none of your business what I intend to express. I don't owe you an explanation. You are not entitled to only allow expressions that meet your idea usefulness.

Not only that, but freedom of expression is a lie if it doesn't also allow the freedom to not express.

There is no freedom to vote without the freedom to not vote.
There is no freedom in a democracy if there are no accompanying responsibilities.
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Old 7th November 2018, 09:09 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The key seems to be phrasing everything in such a way that you negate all other possible meanings/interpretations of every word that you use except the idea(s) you are trying to communicate. This is of course an inherent problem with all human communication but it is normally a game played with the mutual engagement of interlocutors.
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Old 7th November 2018, 09:35 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Australia gives you the freedom not to vote. You can submit an informal ballot. You are free to do that if that is what you wish. Personally, I feel that it's a pretty ****** thing to do, but you are free to do that.
If I were truly free to not vote, I wouldn't have to submit any ballot at all.

I mean, kudos to Australia for only forcing me to go through the motions, and not checking to make sure I actually filled out my ballot with real candidates etc. But don't let the power brokers trick you into thinking they've given me real freedom.
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Old 7th November 2018, 09:52 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If I were truly free to not vote, I wouldn't have to submit any ballot at all.
It's the price of living in a democratic society. If you want to not vote, go live in a dictatorship. You don't get to enjoy the benefits of democracy and not contribute to the costs.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, kudos to Australia for only forcing me to go through the motions, and not checking to make sure I actually filled out my ballot with real candidates etc. But don't let the power brokers trick you into thinking they've given me real freedom.
"Freedom" is a myth, and the biggest con ever perpetrated on the American people. You have only the "freedom" that those in power allow you to have, and no more.
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Old 7th November 2018, 10:05 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If I were truly free to not vote, I wouldn't have to submit any ballot at all.

I mean, kudos to Australia for only forcing me to go through the motions, and not checking to make sure I actually filled out my ballot with real candidates etc. But don't let the power brokers trick you into thinking they've given me real freedom.
You can always go full freemen-on-the-land on the Electoral Commission if they jackbootedly ask why you didn’t vote. Would make for a variation on the border crossing and traffic stop videos on YouTube.
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Old 7th November 2018, 10:17 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Hey now, here's a thing that never happens in Australian elections:

US midterm elections: Dead brothel owner Dennis Hof wins Nevada race for Republicans
How do you know that pimps never get elected in Australia?

Section 44 of the constitution doesn't even mention death or disability as disqualifications to being elected. Even if he were arrested and charged as a pimp, he could still run for parliament. It's only if he gets convicted that section 44 kicks in.
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Old 7th November 2018, 10:19 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
You can always go full freemen-on-the-land on the Electoral Commission if they jackbootedly ask why you didn’t vote. Would make for a variation on the border crossing and traffic stop videos on YouTube.
I don't think there's a lot border crosssers in Australia. Just refugees on boats, damned to a hell hole in the south pacific, courtesy of the glorious democratic vote of the people of Australia. Who believe whatever those in power want them to believe.
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Old 7th November 2018, 10:24 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think there's a lot border crosssers in Australia. Just refugees on boats, damned to a hell hole in the south pacific, courtesy of the glorious democratic vote of the people of Australia. Who believe whatever those in power want them to believe.
Agree. A massive shame for all Australians that we have allowed our politicians to do this for so long. However most of us don’t go into full knee-jerk patriot mode when criticised so give this type of baiting attempt a miss.
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Old 7th November 2018, 10:43 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think there's a lot border crosssers in Australia. Just refugees on boats, damned to a hell hole in the south pacific, courtesy of the glorious democratic vote of the people of Australia. Who believe whatever those in power want them to believe.
Wait! Didn't Trump get elected on the promise to build a Mexican wall?

You might argue that Trump shouldn't have been elected based on the number of votes cast but that is acknowledging that the will of the people in Australia is not as easily thwarted as it is in the US.
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Old 7th November 2018, 11:37 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There is no freedom to vote without the freedom to not vote.
That's a nice turn of phrase, but if you think about it for a moment it's simply not true.

What does "freedom to vote" mean? Obviously it means the ability to choose between the various candidates for public office and submit a vote that will be counted in that decision.

Not having the freedom not to vote doesn't stop one from having this freedom. Nor does having the freedom not to vote guarantee this freedom. In fact, I don't see how it affects it at all.

Can you explain how you think the freedom not to vote impacts on the freedom to vote?
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Old 8th November 2018, 03:12 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If I were truly free to not vote, I wouldn't have to submit any ballot at all.

I mean, kudos to Australia for only forcing me to go through the motions, and not checking to make sure I actually filled out my ballot with real candidates etc. But don't let the power brokers trick you into thinking they've given me real freedom.


Wow. Reagan really sold you on the "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" ******** designed to enhance the power of the corporation, didn't he?


Can I just check what the definition of "real freedom" is? Would that be Somalia?
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Old 8th November 2018, 03:32 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
What is this "Democracy Sausage" of which they speak?


I have never heard this phrase used in 50 years of voting, Federal, State and local. I am certainly familiar with Sausage Sizzles, which are everywhere on a Saturday including outside supermarkets and shopping complexes, on beaches, in backyards (I was eating sausages in Bread over 60 years ago), and on election days as local community fundraisers.



But Democracy Sausage? It was, is and always will be a Sausage Sizzle, and is not even close to defining snags eaten outside a Polling Booth on election days. Some people vote early, and don't have breakfast just thinking they will grab a sausage and a Coffee at the Community Hall/School, RSL etc. That is the tradition.



Norm
Yeah, it’s hard to even imagine an Aussie saying this. The flamin gallahs at the NYT must have had too many tinnies at the bottlo.
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Old 8th November 2018, 09:48 AM   #340
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Mod WarningSeveral posts have been sent to AAH for being off topic or talking about other members as opposed to their posts.

Please keep on topic for the thread.
Posted By:zooterkin
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:09 AM   #341
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Here's another factor.

Australia, to my knowledge, doesn't have anything equivalent to the electoral college.

You also don't have a President, you have two heads of state which as near as I can figure out from reading your Wikipedia somehow appoint each other or something.

No seriously how does that work? The Governor-General appoints the Prime Minister and the Governor-General is appointed by the Queen?
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Old 8th November 2018, 10:52 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No seriously how does that work? The Governor-General appoints the Prime Minister and the Governor-General is appointed by the Queen?
The keyword is "convention".

The GG almost never exercises his power other than at the advice of the prime minister and the Queen always rubber stamps any recommendation (including the selection of GG) made by the PM.

The person selected as GG is one who is most likely to not interfere with the parliamentary process (ie rubber stamps parliament/PM). Military people are popular choices for GG for this reason.

1975 is the only time in federal history where this arrangement broke down. The PM was sacked by the GG and although the House immediately passed a vote of no confidence in the new PM, the Queen refused to take notice of this vote.
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Old 8th November 2018, 11:11 AM   #343
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All decent upstanding US citizens will at least pretend to not support voter-suppression.
But you'd have to be some kind of rabid-constitutionalist to encourage or reward voting in populations that are diametrically opposed to your world-view.

Last edited by Mr Salk; 8th November 2018 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 8th November 2018, 11:15 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
There is no freedom in a democracy if there are no accompanying responsibilities.
Sure. But it does not follow from this that compelling a particular responsibility is justified.
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Old 8th November 2018, 12:38 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure. But it does not follow from this that compelling a particular responsibility is justified.
I don’t see how that *doesn’t* follow. Responsibilities absent enforcement and consequences? Good luck with that for anything that matters.
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Old 8th November 2018, 02:55 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Here's another factor.

Australia, to my knowledge, doesn't have anything equivalent to the electoral college.

You also don't have a President, you have two heads of state which as near as I can figure out from reading your Wikipedia somehow appoint each other or something.

No seriously how does that work? The Governor-General appoints the Prime Minister and the Governor-General is appointed by the Queen?
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The keyword is "convention".

The GG almost never exercises his power other than at the advice of the prime minister and the Queen always rubber stamps any recommendation (including the selection of GG) made by the PM.

The person selected as GG is one who is most likely to not interfere with the parliamentary process (ie rubber stamps parliament/PM). Military people are popular choices for GG for this reason.

1975 is the only time in federal history where this arrangement broke down. The PM was sacked by the GG and although the House immediately passed a vote of no confidence in the new PM, the Queen refused to take notice of this vote.
Just to add to the above. The GG is appointed for fixed terms. A new one is then appointed (ie the Queen is asked by the PM to appoint the GG which she does) by the PM. The GG does not resign on a change of PM. It is rare for a former politician to be appointed GG. It is also rare for a GG to be sacked or resign before their term has expired.

The prime minister is appointed by the GG because he (or in one case she) is the leader of the party that can form government after an election. If the leader of the party changes then the old PM resigns to the GG and the new leader is appointed by the GG. Life then carries on as normal.
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Old 9th November 2018, 12:14 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
It is rare for a former politician to be appointed GG.
One notable exception was Bill Hayden, former ALP leader who resigned in 1983 so that Bob Hawke could take a run at the prime ministership (which he succeeded in doing).

Hayden was appointed GG in 1989 in spite of his previous strong republican views (which he more or less had to recant). This was seen as the ultimate in "jobs for the boys". Hayden served as GG until 1996 - 2 years longer than usual but this was agreed by the Keating Labor government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_H...9%E2%80%931996)
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Old 11th November 2018, 06:43 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
How do you know that pimps never get elected in Australia?

Section 44 of the constitution doesn't even mention death or disability as disqualifications to being elected. Even if he were arrested and charged as a pimp, he could still run for parliament. It's only if he gets convicted that section 44 kicks in.
https://www.aec.gov.au/Elections/can...s/overview.htm

Quote:
What if a House of Representative candidate dies between declaration of nominations and polling day?

The election for that seat or electoral division does not proceed. A new writ is issued for a supplementary election to be held. The supplementary election is conducted using the electoral roll prepared for the original election.
Doesn't say anything about Senate candidates. I can't find what happens if a Senate candidate dies between declaration of nomination and polling day.
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Old 11th November 2018, 06:48 PM   #349
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BTW: Thanks, mods, for cleaning up the thread. It was much-needed.
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Old 11th November 2018, 07:25 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
https://www.aec.gov.au/Elections/can...s/overview.htm



Doesn't say anything about Senate candidates. I can't find what happens if a Senate candidate dies between declaration of nomination and polling day.
Most likely those votes would go to the second person on the candidate list the party gives to the AEC.
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Old 4th March 2019, 07:51 PM   #351
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A history of compulsory voting in Australia (and why we are so good at elections)

Makes interesting reading.
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Old 7th March 2019, 06:46 PM   #352
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Another article about the book that the above article is an extract from.

How Australia's compulsory voting saved it from Trumpism
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Old 7th March 2019, 06:48 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Another article about the book that the above article is an extract from.



How Australia's compulsory voting saved it from Trumpism
Australia's refugee camps hardly seem like an escape from Trumpism. Are you sure compulsory voting is working out for you?
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Old 7th March 2019, 07:10 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Australia's refugee camps hardly seem like an escape from Trumpism. Are you sure compulsory voting is working out for you?
So refugee camps are the result of compulsory voting? Is that your argument?
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Old 7th March 2019, 07:14 PM   #355
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So refugee camps are the result of compulsory voting? Is that your argument?
Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia.

But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them.
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Old 7th March 2019, 07:36 PM   #356
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Australia's refugee camps hardly seem like an escape from Trumpism. Are you sure compulsory voting is working out for you?
This thread is not about offshore processing of refugees.
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Old 7th March 2019, 07:42 PM   #357
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So refugee camps are the result of compulsory voting? Is that your argument?
Okay, let's follow this argument a little way. If offshore processing is the result of compulsory voting, then so is universal healthcare. So are worker protection laws. So is equal marriage.

You can't argue that compulsory voting is responsible for bad policy without acknowledging that it is also responsible for good policy.
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Old 7th March 2019, 07:50 PM   #358
theprestige
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This thread is not about offshore processing of refugees.
It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting.

But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case.

Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality?
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Old 7th March 2019, 08:28 PM   #359
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Oh I see the problem, you're confusing representative democracy with participatory democracy.

We don't get to vote for everything line by line, we vote for representatives who, hopefully, do what they promised.

If they turn out to be turds, we flush them at the next election.
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Old 7th March 2019, 08:29 PM   #360
theprestige
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Oh I see the problem, you're confusing representative democracy with participatory democracy.

We don't get to vote for everything line by line, we vote for representatives who, hopefully, do what they promised.

If they turn out to be turds, we flush them at the next election.
Just like in America, mutatis mutandi. How many election cycles has it been in Australia, since "offshore processing of refugees" first became policy?
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