ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 15th November 2018, 05:28 PM   #1
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
Australia's NRA-Inspired Gun Lobby

How Australia’s NRA-inspired gun lobby is trying to chip away at gun control laws, state by state

Quote:
One of the more noticeable ad campaigns in the upcoming Victoria state election comes from a seemingly unlikely source. The Shooting Industry Foundation of Australia (SIFA) seeks to unwind Australia’s gun regulations, and knows that state governments are as good a place as any to start.

SIFA is a key part of Australia’s gun lobby, and uses the same tactics as its American equivalent, the National Rifle Association (NRA). Like the NRA, SIFA seeks to co-opt democratic norms to force change, even when it is directly at odds with overwhelming public opinion.
We do not want to turn into another America. SIFA does not yet have the political capital that the NRA does (read: puppets in government), fortunately. But this is an example of America directly influencing attitudes and - if SIFA gets its way - public policy in overseas countries.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2018, 05:44 PM   #2
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,430
They won't get very far. As soon as they get praised by the NRA, that will spell the end of them as a political force. And that will happen.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2018, 06:11 PM   #3
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,518
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
We do not want to turn into another America. SIFA does not yet have the political capital that the NRA does (read: puppets in government), fortunately. But this is an example of America directly influencing attitudes and - if SIFA gets its way - public policy in overseas countries.
You lost me. What does "directly influencing" mean in this context?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2018, 06:33 PM   #4
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You lost me. What does "directly influencing" mean in this context?
Cultural invasion. Due to global communications, we are as close to and aware of your cultural mores as you are. And some people here readily take them on board. E.g. There are some gun-owners here who say they won't give up their guns because of "their Second Amendment rights". Suffice to say, we don't have any such rights in law here, nor any such amendments to our constitution.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2018, 06:34 PM   #5
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You lost me. What does "directly influencing" mean in this context?
Read the article:

Quote:
Like the NRA, SIFA is also backed by the gun industry, such as the Beretta family (who are adamant that guns are inextricably linked to freedom) and NIOA (a major gun importer in Australia that was featured in a recent 4 Corners special on the gun industry).

As with the NRA, SIFA is also willing to use a range of tools to get its way. And, as with America, the power to make gun control laws in Australia rests with the states, as well as the federal government.

...

The Australian gun lobby has learnt from this American example, and its methods emulate it. Expect to see more from SIFA in the lead-up to other elections in the future – Australia’s very own NRA.
If you really want to reduce the NRA's agency in the transaction, perhaps the phrase "SIFA is directly inspired by the NRA" would be preferable?
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2018, 06:58 PM   #6
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,518
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Read the article:

If you really want to reduce the NRA's agency in the transaction, perhaps the phrase "SIFA is directly inspired by the NRA" would be preferable?
I don't want to reduce anything. Just understand WTF you're talking about. You alluded to direct American influence. I figured something like the NRA or some American arms manufacturer funding Australian lobbyists or something.

The excerpt you quoted under the non-answer, "read the article" doesn't really help: Beretta is an Italian company, and as far as I can tell, NIOA is an Australian concern.

Maybe "directly inspired by the NRA" would be better, but it's not like the NRA invented the idea of political advocacy and lobbying. It hardly requires their influence, direct or otherwise, for Australians who dissent on gun policy to think of speaking up about it, or lobbying for a change. Your whole attitude seems to be that if it weren't for some other gun lobby on the other side of the world, it would never have occurred to some Australians to start up a lobby of their own.

ETA: I guess what I really want is for you to demonstrate any evidence of NRA agency at all, here.

Last edited by theprestige; 15th November 2018 at 07:01 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2018, 07:05 PM   #7
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
ETA: I guess what I really want is for you to demonstrate any evidence of NRA agency at all, here.
Well, I'm certainly not privy to private communications between SIFA and the NRA, if that's what you're looking for. But the parallels are painfully obvious. SIFA is a gun advocacy group, just like the NRA. It is backed by the manufacturing industry, just like the NRA. It uses political means to achieve its goals, just like the NRA. Its goals are to reduce existing gun control and prevent new gun control laws from being passed, just like the NRA.

As far as I know SIFA doesn't yet have its own TV channel, so there's that.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2018, 09:34 AM   #8
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,518
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, I'm certainly not privy to private communications between SIFA and the NRA, if that's what you're looking for. But the parallels are painfully obvious. SIFA is a gun advocacy group, just like the NRA. It is backed by the manufacturing industry, just like the NRA. It uses political means to achieve its goals, just like the NRA. Its goals are to reduce existing gun control and prevent new gun control laws from being passed, just like the NRA.
This is the same process and strategy followed by every political lobby ever. The NRA doesn't have special lobbying technology known only to them and their disciples. If you don't have evidence of direct influence, why claim it?

Based on the information you've provided, I'd say the real sinner in your complaint is Beretta. And Beretta may have been heartened by the success of the gun lobby in the US, but I bet their strategy in Australia is informed more by the techniques of successful lobbying in general, than by anything the NRA in particular has done.

Quote:
As far as I know SIFA doesn't yet have its own TV channel, so there's that.
See what I mean? The one notable example of NRA agency you come up with, SIFA hasn't copied. Where's this direct influence and agency you keep talking about?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2018, 05:33 PM   #9
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
I see - you will only believe what I say if I provide you with direct material evidence of influence, presumably in the form of documents or recordings. Nothing less will satisfy you, least of all anything I would presume to say about it.

The news media is reporting that SIFA is inspired by the NRA. I'm not making anything up, I am merely repeating what has been published about it. The media could, I guess, be simply inventing the link. I guess as an American you'd be used to the media making **** up. But it was republished on the ABC, which is pretty well-known to be impartial.

To me, an Australian, the link is so blindingly obvious that it would be perverse to deny it. No reasonable thinking person could doubt it unless they, like you, had a strong ideological bias.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2018, 09:24 PM   #10
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,398
"Gun rights" in the U.S. are largely based on a specific, debatable interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. Does Australia have any comparable core law or tradition? In most countries, the default position of the law is that you can't have a firearm unless the government allows it, not the other way around.

Last edited by Bob001; 18th November 2018 at 09:26 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2018, 09:56 PM   #11
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Gun rights" in the U.S. are largely based on a specific, debatable interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. Does Australia have any comparable core law or tradition? In most countries, the default position of the law is that you can't have a firearm unless the government allows it, not the other way around.
Nope. Australia has no equivalent of the 2nd Amendment - we have no Bill of Rights. Rights aren't recognised in our Constitution but in our signatory status to international treaties, including the Universal Declaration. There are some, however, like SIFA and one Senator David Leyonhjelm, who appear to believe that we should have something like the 2nd Amendment. I think that would be a terrible mistake.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2018, 10:40 PM   #12
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Gun rights" in the U.S. are largely based on a specific, debatable interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. Does Australia have any comparable core law or tradition? In most countries, the default position of the law is that you can't have a firearm unless the government allows it, not the other way around.
Dude, did you read my previous post??
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 09:21 AM   #13
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,518
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I see - you will only believe what I say if I provide you with direct material evidence of influence, presumably in the form of documents or recordings. Nothing less will satisfy you, least of all anything I would presume to say about it.
I'll believe there's direct influence when I see evidence of direct influence. Why would you claim direct influence without the evidence? And why would you get snippy with me over your lack of evidence?

Quote:
The news media is reporting that SIFA is inspired by the NRA. I'm not making anything up, I am merely repeating what has been published about it. The media could, I guess, be simply inventing the link. I guess as an American you'd be used to the media making **** up. But it was republished on the ABC, which is pretty well-known to be impartial.
ABC may be impartial. That's another claim that coincidentally supports your position without actually providing evidence for it.

And it's not like they provided evidence to you for the link they're claiming.

And even ABC isn't claiming that the NRA directly influenced SIFA - that's your claim.

Quote:
To me, an Australian, the link is so blindingly obvious that it would be perverse to deny it. No reasonable thinking person could doubt it unless they, like you, had a strong ideological bias.
It's a matter of public record, reported in your own impartial media, that Italian gun manufacturer Beretta is directly funding SIFA. From this you conclude that the NRA is the real villain. And then accuse me of having ideological bias. How is this rational, arth?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 04:36 PM   #14
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a matter of public record, reported in your own impartial media, that Italian gun manufacturer Beretta is directly funding SIFA. From this you conclude that the NRA is the real villain. And then accuse me of having ideological bias. How is this rational, arth?
Am I concluding anything? I am merely repeating what is being reported in the media. And of course...

Doh! Of course. Silly me. Sorry, I shouldn't have assumed that you actually read the article I posted. Here, let me quote the relevant parts.

Quote:
SIFA is a key part of Australia’s gun lobby, and uses the same tactics as its American equivalent, the National Rifle Association (NRA). Like the NRA, SIFA seeks to co-opt democratic norms to force change, even when it is directly at odds with overwhelming public opinion.
Quote:
Like the NRA, SIFA is also backed by the gun industry...
Quote:
As with the NRA, SIFA is also willing to use a range of tools to get its way. And, as with America, the power to make gun control laws in Australia rests with the states, as well as the federal government.
Quote:
America’s guns laws were weakened through a gradual process. This involved the patient undermining of the popular will through the passage of favourable laws in state legislatures – the blocking of others – and a continuing narrative that linked guns with freedom and gun control with an evil or “nanny” state.

The Australian gun lobby has learnt from this American example, and its methods emulate it.
Does that help?
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 04:41 PM   #15
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
Here are a few more pieces from various sources, all of which link SIFA to the NRA:

Tim Fischer warns 'NRA-inspired' firearms lobby targeting Australia's gun laws

Gun lobby funding One Nation candidates

Victorian election ad bliz by ‘NRA-inspired’ gun lobby SIFA to weaken gun laws

Still think I'm making **** up?
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 04:57 PM   #16
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,400
They are nothing compared to the NRA and they are are wasting their time

a) Aussie have no 2nd Amendment to battle against

b) Two totally different cultures and mindsets

In the US it is a lot harder to add any kind of gun controls, than it is to take them off

In Aus it is a lot harder to take any kind of gun controls off, than it is to add them on

(May have made a hash of those two points)
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 05:10 PM   #17
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
They are nothing compared to the NRA and they are are wasting their time

a) Aussie have no 2nd Amendment to battle against

b) Two totally different cultures and mindsets

In the US it is a lot harder to add any kind of gun controls, than it is to take them off

In Aus it is a lot harder to take any kind of gun controls off, than it is to add them on

(May have made a hash of those two points)
Sure, I'm not claiming that they're clones of the NRA. But it's clear (to everyone except perhaps theprestige) that they are using NRA-inspired tactics to achieve NRA-inspired goals. The execution will obviously be different, and the original article I posted makes these points as well.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 08:05 PM   #18
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,942
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
They are nothing compared to the NRA and they are are wasting their time

a) Aussie have no 2nd Amendment to battle against

b) Two totally different cultures and mindsets

In the US it is a lot harder to add any kind of gun controls, than it is to take them off

In Aus it is a lot harder to take any kind of gun controls off, than it is to add them on

(May have made a hash of those two points)
A losing fight for freedom is never a waste of time. Principles matter.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 08:39 PM   #19
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,255
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A losing fight for freedom is never a waste of time. Principles matter.
And one of the principles worth fighting for is having the freedom to go about your business without fear of being shot.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 08:58 PM   #20
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,942
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
And one of the principles worth fighting for is having the freedom to go about your business without fear of being shot.
People manage to walk around not scared of various things all the time. If you don't want to feel fear, then suppress your sense of fear. Problem solved.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 09:00 PM   #21
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A losing fight for freedom is never a waste of time. Principles matter.
...said while you hide in your "castles" with all your guns poking out and more stacked on the floor beside you, keeping a vigilant watch for...someone or something that's a-comin' ta getcha! and claiming you are free.

Meanwhile, we over here with actual gun-controls in place don't have to do any such thing. We are more free.

(Just stirring. )
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 09:05 PM   #22
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,942
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
...said while you hide in your "castles" with all your guns poking out and more stacked on the floor beside you, keeping a vigilant watch for...someone or something that's a-comin' ta getcha! and claiming you are free.

Meanwhile, we over here with actual gun-controls in place don't have to do any such thing. We are more free.

(Just stirring. )
Feel free to substitute any principle of freedom you want. Im not going to order you to think what is a freedom.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 09:10 PM   #23
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Feel free to substitute any principle of freedom you want. Im not going to order you to think what is a freedom.
Really, we have almost identical "freedoms" as you do. We are even free to own guns. Really! But just like cars, guns are controlled and licensed here. With freedom comes responsibility.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 09:13 PM   #24
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,942
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Really, we have almost identical "freedoms" as you do. We are even free to own guns. Really! But just like cars, guns are controlled and licensed here. With freedom comes responsibility.
I meant anything. I wasn't confining anyone to any western, or even human, standard.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 09:48 PM   #25
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I meant anything. I wasn't confining anyone to any western, or even human, standard.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2018, 10:16 PM   #26
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,430
Deja vu all over again...
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 07:12 AM   #27
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 9,940
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
In the US it is a lot harder to add any kind of gun controls, than it is to take them off
I can only think of a few cases in which gun laws were struck down for being unconstitutional. At any other time that a type of gun was prohibited, excessively taxed or subject to the whims of the local sheriff to own, the law or regulation has remained in place or was eventually amended.

Knowing that we in the US have far more gun regulations now than decades ago makes your claim dubious at best.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 12:55 PM   #28
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,398
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I can only think of a few cases in which gun laws were struck down for being unconstitutional. At any other time that a type of gun was prohibited, excessively taxed or subject to the whims of the local sheriff to own, the law or regulation has remained in place or was eventually amended.

Knowing that we in the US have far more gun regulations now than decades ago makes your claim dubious at best.
In number, maybe. But not in impact. Over recent decades, most states have become "must-issue" concealed carry states, where previously you usually had to prove a need to get a permit to pack heat. A requirement for universal background checks, supported by most of the population, can't get through Congress. The "assault weapons" ban (yeah, I know about its many shortcomings) has ended and never been replaced. D.C.'s long-standing ban on most private ownership of handguns was overturned. Etc., etc.

There might -- maybe -- be more regulations, but there are provably fewer restrictions on guns in the U.S. than there were decades ago.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 01:02 PM   #29
lobosrul5
Graduate Poster
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,835
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In number, maybe. But not in impact. Over recent decades, most states have become "must-issue" concealed carry states, where previously you usually had to prove a need to get a permit to pack heat. A requirement for universal background checks, supported by most of the population, can't get through Congress. The "assault weapons" ban (yeah, I know about its many shortcomings) has ended and never been replaced. D.C.'s long-standing ban on most private ownership of handguns was overturned. Etc., etc.

There might -- maybe -- be more regulations, but there are provably fewer restrictions on guns in the U.S. than there were decades ago.
And open carry states that cannot be overruled by municipal governments is on the rise.

Its hard to legally get full automatic fiearms (I think Ranb and I had a discussion on this in another thread, please note I didnt say impossible). That is really the only thing that will be hard to get in the USA for just about anyone (with enough money). Travel to a state like Nevada, and find a private seller to sell you what you want. He/she is under no obligation to check if you can legally purchase that gun in your state or if you are a felon. They can only be successfully prosecuted if its proven they knew what they were selling was illegal for the buyer.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 20th November 2018 at 01:11 PM.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 01:49 PM   #30
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,283
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In number, maybe. But not in impact. Over recent decades, most states have become "must-issue" concealed carry states, where previously you usually had to prove a need to get a permit to pack heat. A requirement for universal background checks, supported by most of the population, can't get through Congress. The "assault weapons" ban (yeah, I know about its many shortcomings) has ended and never been replaced. D.C.'s long-standing ban on most private ownership of handguns was overturned. Etc., etc.

There might -- maybe -- be more regulations, but there are provably fewer restrictions on guns in the U.S. than there were decades ago.
National regulations may be looser, but many states and cities have maintained or increased regulation. Several states have continued assault weapons bans since the federal sunset in 2004 and some have restrictions more severe than the original federal ban. Some of the most restrictive laws have been struck down by the SCOTUS, but many more have not been challenged.

I'd say that gun rights in the US is still very much an open question.

As to the NRA. It's certainly a powerful lobby group, but it's not really different in tactics than most other powerful lobby groups. They direct money from interested industries into the hands of lawmakers. It's certainly shameful, but no more shameful than any other corrupting influence in our pay-to-play politics.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 20th November 2018 at 01:51 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 06:19 PM   #31
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 9,940
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Travel to a state like Nevada, and find a private seller to sell you what you want. He/she is under no obligation to check if you can legally purchase that gun in your state or if you are a felon. They can only be successfully prosecuted if its proven they knew what they were selling was illegal for the buyer.
An initiative was passed by Nevada voters to require private sales bkgd checks but it's not being enforced due to an opinion by the NV AG.

https://www.scribd.com/document/3352...ion-FBI-letter

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2018, 10:36 PM   #32
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
 
novaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,026
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Nope. Australia has no equivalent of the 2nd Amendment - we have no Bill of Rights. Rights aren't recognised in our Constitution ...
Sorry to be such a nitpicker Arthwollipot, but, IIRC The Australian Constitution does enshrine three "rights" which are trial by jury, fair compensation, and religious freedom.

There are other "implied rights" including the right to vote, i.e. the Constitution says that once attained it can't be taken away.

And... The High Court has extended the right to vote to include freedom of association and freedom of speech. (Because, again IIRC, these things must be present for a person to be able to decide who to vote for.)

But the main point stands. We don't have an equivalent of the Bill of Rights, the Constitution is the closest thing we have to that document/set of principles.
__________________
We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.
novaphile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2018, 10:37 PM   #33
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
 
novaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,026
Please note, I've probably grossly simplified the above.
__________________
We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.
novaphile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2018, 05:12 PM   #34
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
Fair enough.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2019, 04:28 PM   #35
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
One Nation wanted millions from the NRA while planning to soften Australia's gun laws

Quote:
Secret recordings of senior One Nation figures reveal the party wanted millions of dollars in political donations from America's National Rifle Association and discussed softening its policies on gun ownership as it tried to secure the funding.

Pauline Hanson's chief of staff James Ashby and the party's Queensland leader Steve Dickson were covertly filmed during a series of meetings with powerful pro-gun advocates in Washington DC last September.

Footage from inside the meetings, broadcast overnight as part of an Al Jazeera investigation, shows the pair seeking political donations and discussing political strategies to undermine Australia's gun restrictions.

"We get the balance of power, very simply that means that we have the testicles of the Government in our hand at every given stage," Mr Dickson said in a meeting with the NRA.

"And guns, in the scheme of things, are still going to be the be-all and end-all."
There is no evidence that they actually got any money, which is nice. It occurred before the government enacted laws against foreign donations, so with any luck, they never will.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2019, 06:10 PM   #36
fromdownunder
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,486
Now poor Pauline is being jumped by, well actually, everybody. She really should have stuck to selling fish and chips.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-...tions/10939140



There has been widespread condemnation for One Nation as politicians demand answers from Pauline Hanson amid revelations her party sought foreign funding to change Australia's gun laws.


Liberal Cabinet minister Simon Birmingham said Senator Hanson must explain why One Nation wanted donations from the powerful American gun lobby.


Derrin Hinch tweeted "Pauline Hanson’s One Nation’s attempt to get $10-20 million from the despicable US National Rifle Association to help them water down our gun laws is just obscene. Also the boast the $$ could “change the voting system” and “have the whole g'ment by the balls”. Please explain."


Deputy Nationals leader Bridget McKenzie, an avid sport shooting enthusiast, demanded Senator Hanson reveal whether she knew her staff were trying to secure foreign political donations.


Scomo: "Reports that senior One Nation officials courted foreign political donations from the US gun lobby to influence our elections & undermine our gun laws that keep us safe are deeply concerning"


"What a hypocrite One Nation and Pauline Hanson are. What this shows is just how phony their policies are," Greens senator Sarah Hanson-Young said.


Agriculture Minister David Littleproud, a Queensland Nationals MP, echoed Senator Hanson-Young's critique of One Nation.


"When you see the hypocrisy, when you see on the 20th of December 2017 a One Nation post saying they are against foreign donations to political parties, then you have got to ask some questions — please explain?" he said.




Norm
__________________
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain


fromdownunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2019, 06:28 PM   #37
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
One Nation wanted millions from the NRA while planning to soften Australia's gun laws



There is no evidence that they actually got any money, which is nice. It occurred before the government enacted laws against foreign donations, so with any luck, they never will.
Ashby has always been a grade-1 First-Class tuberculin-free moron. He has been freeloading off Pauline for years, and her propensity for self-glorification is the perfect vehicle for his suck-uppiness. Betting this is not the first attempt the little twerps have had at trying to get foreign money involved.

Also, they are so frickkin' stupid that I expect they have been breaking the law not deliberately but from sheer stupidity.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2019, 06:35 PM   #38
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 64,605
This is really bad for Pauline and her One Nation pals. Some have questioned the timing of releasing the report - right before a General Election. But Hanson is so odious that I have no problem with that.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2019, 06:50 PM   #39
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,643
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is really bad for Pauline and her One Nation pals. Some have questioned the timing of releasing the report - right before a General Election. But Hanson is so odious that I have no problem with that.
Would have been handy before the NSW election where the Shooters Party won three seats. Might have embarrassed the Labour Party into not doing preference deals with them.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2019, 06:53 PM   #40
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,643
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
One Nation wanted millions from the NRA while planning to soften Australia's gun laws



There is no evidence that they actually got any money, which is nice. It occurred before the government enacted laws against foreign donations, so with any luck, they never will.
The idea of the NRA funding social media campaigns as a means to avoiding such questions comes up in the recorded discussions.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:02 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.