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Old 28th March 2019, 05:51 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No but there are elected officials who represent those who elected them. When the shoe's on the other foot, or when the people at the top are out of control, they have an aparatus to shut you up.
They always have that. There's already law enforcement and the military, the security forces, that are more or less under their control.

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So my question is: how do you prevent that? You've already given them the tools to determine what constitutes bad speech and to stop it.
Why stop at that? They've already been given the guns, ammunition and training which they can use to kill me. In principle there's nothing preventing the police from storming my apartment and shooting me to death at any moment, for any or no reason at all.

Of course we cannot prevent psychotic police officers from doing something like that with absolute certainty, anymore than we can principally prevent the entire state bureaucracy becoming stricken by a collective psychosis. The same thing applies to some rogue agent acting on behalf of the political leadership of this country.

But there are plenty of things we can do to lessen to odds of that happening, or at least limit the impact should such things occur.

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Ok then, who decides what the foundations of liberal-democracy are? Face it: a sizeable chunk of the country has a very different idea of what those are.
There are plenty of different preconditions for a genuine and well-functioning liberal-democracy to exist. There's a reason why simply having democratic elections rarely if ever turns a country that has been under a authoritarian system for hundreds of years into a liberal-democracy.

Above all else is the simple fact that enough people can't just accept or tolerate the status quo, they have to actually believe in and defend it. That's why winning over the hearts and minds of people is so crucial. They have to be willing to up with hardship and not simply seek refugee in the empty promises of authoritarian demagogues or totalitarian extremists.

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What if they find that, for instance, MSNBC regularily broadcasts erroneous information or undermines government functions by constantly nay-saying the President?
I find it very strange that you seem to completely miss the point. It's exactly this kind of thing that I'm trying to prevent!

It's almost certainly too late to stop them with the usual constitution means when they begin to prevent any criticism. That's the point where liberal-democracy has given way to authoritarianism. That's why we have to act preemptively before its too late.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:55 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's a good point.

They're really not.
I'm pretty sure if you ask any biologists they'll tell you that Neanderthals are, in fact, extinct.

For instance, he's the first sentence of the wikipedia entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
Quote:
Neanderthals (UK: /niˈændərˌtɑːl/, also US: /neɪ-, -ˈɑːn-, -ˌtɔːl, -ˌθɔːl/;[4] Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapiens neanderthalensis)[5] are an extinct species or subspecies of archaic humans in the genus Homo, who lived within Eurasia from circa 400,000 until 40,000 years ago.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:58 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm pretty sure if you ask any biologists they'll tell you that Neanderthals are, in fact, extinct.
We also have people here on ISF who say that dinosaurs are not extinct. They point at birds and say that those are dinosaurs.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:59 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I get that, but who gets to decide, and how do we ensure that the next administration doesn't decide that _my_ speech and attempts to implement my ideas are not against the common good?



So that's first. Second, how about a guy like Alex Jones? Do you jail him for his nonsense?
Why not continue to use the same process you've been using for centuries?
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:01 AM   #125
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Mother: "Oh no! My son has been bitten by a poisonous snake! I need help! Somebody help me!"
Technically-Correct Man: "I'll help you citizens! You see technically your son wasn't bitten by a poisonous snake. Poisonous means that it's dangerous if you ingest it. Your son was bitten by a venomous snake."
Mother: "Thank you Technically-Correct Man!"
Technically-Correct Man: "My work here is done!" *Flies off*
Son: *Dies*
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:04 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We also have people here on ISF who say that dinosaurs are not extinct. They point at birds and say that those are dinosaurs.
Sure, but we are correct about that, whereas Neanderthals are extinct. The issue here is that "dinosaurs" aren't a species. As I understand it, ancestral species are still considered to be extinct even if their progeny remains extant, because it's a different species.

But dinosaurs are a class, and that clade has living examples today, so, yes, birds are dinosaurs. The majority of dinosaur species did go extinct at the K/T event, though.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:06 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Mother: "Oh no! My son has been bitten by a poisonous snake! I need help! Somebody help me!"
Technically-Correct Man: "I'll help you citizens! You see technically your son wasn't bitten by a poisonous snake. Poisonous means that it's dangerous if you ingest it. Your son was bitten by a venomous snake."
Mother: "Thank you Technically-Correct Man!"
Technically-Correct Man: "My work here is done!" *Flies off*
Son: *Dies*
Clearly her son thought the snake was merely poisonous, which is why he was handling it in such a way that he got bitten. If only Technically-Correct-Man had arrived on the scene sooner, this tragedy could have been averted!
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:08 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
so, yes, birds are dinosaurs.
No, they are birds.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:09 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
They always have that. There's already law enforcement and the military, the security forces, that are more or less under their control.
Yeah but they don't have the ability to downright call your speech unacceptable at a drop of a hat, regardless of what you actually say, do they?

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There are plenty of different preconditions for a genuine and well-functioning liberal-democracy to exist.
I agree with you. But the fact is that many will disagree on what constitutes a threat to it. Actions are easier to get into this set than words.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:10 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm pretty sure if you ask any biologists they'll tell you that Neanderthals are, in fact, extinct.

For instance, he's the first sentence of the wikipedia entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
Shh, don't tell Tank!

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why not continue to use the same process you've been using for centuries?
Which process is that? I'm not American, by the way, but the US has usually been pretty loathe to limit speech too much.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:10 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We also have people here on ISF who say that dinosaurs are not extinct. They point at birds and say that those are dinosaurs.
And I have seen people referring to non-avian dinosaurs in material for popular consumption. It becomes an interesting point of view, as they are certainly descended and physiologically similar to some varieties of dinosaurs more than those dinosaurs are to other dinosaurs.

You have the Saurischia which includes the Theropoda(which birds are descended from) and the Sauropodomorpha , then there are the Ornithischia. So dinosaurs as a grouping are more diverse from each other than birds are from them.

It would be similar to arguing if all mammals but bats went extinct that bats were not mammals.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:11 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No, they are birds.
Just like the bible declares bats which of course are not mammals!
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:11 AM   #133
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Evolution only cares that dinosaur genes survived, new phenotype or not.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:15 AM   #134
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Bats are useful vermin.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:16 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Bats are useful vermin.
But are they mammals or not and why would you count them as such?
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:22 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But are they mammals or not and why would you count them as such?
Bats are mammals. But they aren't still the ancestor of mammals.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:23 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but they don't have the ability to downright call your speech unacceptable at a drop of a hat, regardless of what you actually say, do they?
Of course they can. It's not as if their tongue would shrivel up and fall out of their mouth if they tried to say that now is it?

What's important is if others are willing to believe in them, ignore the law and follow their orders. Laws, regulations, constitutions and so forth don't mean a god damn thing if people don't believe in them.

Quote:
I agree with you. But the fact is that many will disagree on what constitutes a threat to it. Actions are easier to get into this set than words.
Of course there's no need to suppress every single religious and political extremist or crazy crackpot out there. That doesn't mean we should get careless and assume that people will always "do the right thing".
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:25 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Of course they can. It's not as if their tongue would shrivel up and fall out of their mouth if they tried to say that now is it?
I meant that they have no legal aparatus for doing so.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:26 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Bats are mammals. But they aren't still the ancestor of mammals.
And clearly all extinct groupings of mammals are now no longer mammals either.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:33 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And clearly all extinct groupings of mammals are now no longer mammals either.
They aren't their ancestors. Their ancestors have been given a name. Don't call them the name of their ancestors because they aren't their ancestors.

Humans are primates, but we aren't proto-primates. Those are extinct.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:38 AM   #141
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So, maybe I missed it but is there any evidence that banning the dissemination of ideas actually does curtail their spread. As far as I know Pro-NAZI propaganda is illegal in a lot of places that none-the-less still have NAZI's.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:40 AM   #142
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I think distinction between "X speech exists" and "X speech is in the common public discourse" has to be made.

There's a fundamental difference between an idea that exists in a society if you go looking for it and an idea that is actually part of a society's normal, day to day discourse.
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:14 AM   #143
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It seems to me that someone asking if there are historical examples have missed the fact that social media is a fairly new phenomenon. We are in uncharted waters, and we're dealing the social equivalent of a hydrogen bomb.
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:20 AM   #144
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To be fair I don't think I've ever been more wrong about anything then about my hope that near universal instantaneous access to essentially the collected sum of all human knowledge would make being "wrong" almost impossible.

Yeah... missed the mark on that one a bit.
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:22 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It seems to me that someone asking if there are historical examples have missed the fact that social media is a fairly new phenomenon. We are in uncharted waters, and we're dealing the social equivalent of a hydrogen bomb.
Yeah the internet and its effects will take a long time to properly evaluate. But we still have to be able to predict things and how to react to problems on the internet now. It's just a question of how we go about doing it.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
To be fair I don't think I've ever been more wrong about anything then about my hope that near universal instantaneous access to essentially the collected sum of all human knowledge would make being "wrong" almost impossible.

Yeah... missed the mark on that one a bit.
I made the exact same mistake.
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:49 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Promoting the Rohingya genocide. I know it won in the marketplace of ideas but really that shouldn't be the be all and end all of morality.
In light of that and given the recent hysteria over social media, Facebook would be very wise to keep an eye on those Taylor Swift fan pages. Today it's T-Swizzle but tomorrow it could be.....nazis
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:00 AM   #147
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Just chiming in to restate that they should be allowed to have their platform. Let them be seen and heard. Makes them easier to identify.

If they are restricted to clandestine sites, their exposure to each other becomes a closed echo chamber, and reinforces their beliefs. Let them see themselves and their ideological comrades ridiculed openly. Let every new potential recruit see how society what large thinks of them. The hard core haters won't be moved one way or the other, and will still go on sociopathic sprees; they will with or without facebook. But the less cuckoo may be persuaded that the views are fundamentally sick when sunlight shines on them.
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:03 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just chiming in to restate that they should be allowed to have their platform. Let them be seen and heard. Makes them easier to identify.

If they are restricted to clandestine sites, their exposure to each other becomes a closed echo chamber, and reinforces their beliefs. Let them see themselves and their ideological comrades ridiculed openly. Let every new potential recruit see how society what large thinks of them. The hard core haters won't be moved one way or the other, and will still go on sociopathic sprees; they will with or without facebook. But the less cuckoo may be persuaded that the views are fundamentally sick when sunlight shines on them.
Of course it also makes recruitment harder as it means that the people need to start by going looking to be nazis.
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:12 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but they don't have the ability to downright call your speech unacceptable at a drop of a hat, regardless of what you actually say, do they?







I agree with you. But the fact is that many will disagree on what constitutes a threat to it. Actions are easier to get into this set than words.
Words are an action. They are not something that stands apart from other actions we do.
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:13 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Shh, don't tell Tank!







Which process is that? I'm not American, by the way, but the US has usually been pretty loathe to limit speech too much.
Whatever your country has been using, Canada is not that new of a country so it must have developed mechanisms to decide what can and can't be expressed.
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:17 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So, maybe I missed it but is there any evidence that banning the dissemination of ideas actually does curtail their spread. As far as I know Pro-NAZI propaganda is illegal in a lot of places that none-the-less still have NAZI's.
I've also often wondered when we have conversations about this issue do we have any evidence to support the cliches and claims made for freedom of speech, e.g.. expose to the daylight, marketplace of ideas and so on. They sound good but does the evidence stack up.
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:18 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Words are an action. They are not something that stands apart from other actions we do.
Yes but I'm sure you understand that what someone says and what someone does are two different, if related, things. Saying "well you can't do X" is one thing, but saying "well, you can't say X" is quite a bit more slippery.

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Whatever your country has been using, Canada is not that new of a country so it most have developed mechanisms to decide what can and can't be expressed.
Indeed. What's your exact point or question?
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:32 AM   #153
Thermal
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course it also makes recruitment harder as it means that the people need to start by going looking to be nazis.
Which they would be doing anyway.

Ridicule is the answer. The Blues Brothers had it right. No wannabe white supremacist wants to be publicly ridiculed
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:39 AM   #154
ahhell
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Which they would be doing anyway.

Ridicule is the answer. The Blues Brothers had it right. No wannabe white supremacist wants to be publicly ridiculed
My understanding is this it what happened to the second klan in the 30s. The superman radio show ran a series in which superman battled the klan but the klan came across as incredibly silly and childish. On the other hand there was a high profile sex/political scandal involving the Klan around the same time, both may have contributed to the collapse of that version of the Klan.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've also often wondered when we have conversations about this issue do we have any evidence to support the cliches and claims made for freedom of speech, e.g.. expose to the daylight, marketplace of ideas and so on. They sound good but does the evidence stack up.
It is a reasonable question, I would just err toward more free speech in the absence of evidence so I'm not especially concerned regarding that side of the coin.

I am not aware of compelling evidence one way or the other.

Last edited by ahhell; 28th March 2019 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:49 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I'm not promoting anything at all.

I'm just saying that your grandchildren will be brown.
What makes you think that?

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It seems to me that someone asking if there are historical examples have missed the fact that social media is a fairly new phenomenon. We are in uncharted waters, and we're dealing the social equivalent of a hydrogen bomb.
If letting people discuss racial differences and openly express their racial group interests is the social equivalent of a hydrogen bomb, this just confirms my assertion that multiracial society is a precarious powder keg and an inherently unstable situation / bad model. No?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
To be fair I don't think I've ever been more wrong about anything then about my hope that near universal instantaneous access to essentially the collected sum of all human knowledge would make being "wrong" almost impossible.

Yeah... missed the mark on that one a bit.
That, or you seriously miscalculated in the realms of human capacity, human nature, what it even means to be wrong vs. right on certain types of issues, etc.
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Old 28th March 2019, 11:37 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If they are restricted to clandestine sites, their exposure to each other becomes a closed echo chamber, and reinforces their beliefs.
This remains true whether they are restricted to clandestine sites or not.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Let them see themselves and their ideological comrades ridiculed openly. Let every new potential recruit see how society what large thinks of them.
This does not require giving them a platform. It can be done without that.

You mentioned the movie "The Blues Brothers" as having it right. Did that movie provide a platform for the Illinois Nazis to argue their propaganda or beliefs and then ridicule those beliefs? No, it had them say just enough to establish for the audience that they were Nazis, and then immediately turned them into punching bags. And they stayed that way for the rest of the movie.

Besides, we're not talking about forcing them onto "clandestine sites". We're talking about NAMBLA-fying them. They can have their open sites; they just don't get a seat at our common discussion forums like social media and mainstream news.
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Last edited by Checkmite; 28th March 2019 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:41 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I had a specific exchange with the OP where he/she said this thread was also about government regulation.
And I pondered whether it was government regulation that led to the boring, predictable European hive mind. Or whether it has to do with their countries' being more ethnically homogenenous.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:42 PM   #158
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
You mentioned the movie "The Blues Brothers" as having it right. Did that movie provide a platform for the Illinois Nazis to argue their propaganda or beliefs and then ridicule those beliefs? No, it had them say just enough to establish for the audience that they were Nazis, and then immediately turned them into punching bags. And they stayed that way for the rest of the movie.
Well there was the clear answer to run them down with your car. That could be logically drawn from the movie.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:44 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just chiming in to restate that they should be allowed to have their platform.
These are all arguments I've seen commonly made, but I don't see them pan out in real life.
Quote:
Let them be seen and heard. Makes them easier to identify.
How do you mean identify? Do you mean outing individuals as Nazis to their employers or friends? Do you mean the issue of people knowing what a Nazi looks and sounds like? Or something else?

Quote:
If they are restricted to clandestine sites, their exposure to each other becomes a closed echo chamber, and reinforces their beliefs. Let them see themselves and their ideological comrades ridiculed openly.
That's not how it works out though. In reality, public ridicule doesn't make people back away from extreme viewpoints, it makes them more entrenched and angry. And while they have access to massive social media sites, they can come away from being ridiculed to lick their wounds with a large group of sympathizers who will assure them that it's the mean ridiculers who are wrong.

The idea that exposure to criticism and mockery defeats bad ideas may make a sort of common sense, but it doesn't seem to really work that way in the real world. Just like fat shaming makes people eat more and yelling about Trump makes people watch more Fox news.





Quote:
Let every new potential recruit see how society what large thinks of them. The hard core haters won't be moved one way or the other, and will still go on sociopathic sprees; they will with or without facebook.

They weren't born that way though. I can't say that banning them from facebook will necessarily prevent a shooting. But if we trace back the paths of white supremecists who are ready to be violent, I feel pretty confident we'd see the path of them finding and nurturing these ideologies. And significant parts of those paths will be encountering and reinforcing these ideas through publicly accessible spaces online.



Quote:
But the less cuckoo may be persuaded that the views are fundamentally sick when sunlight shines on them.
This is a nice thought, I don't see a reason tho think it's common though. And an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:51 PM   #160
dudalb
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Robert Heinlein on Free Speech..and he says it better then I ever could:

It's from his novel "If This Goes On" (aka "Revolt In 2100")

Quote:
“Secrecy is the keystone of all tyranny. Not force, but secrecy… censorship. Not force, but secrecy… censorship. When any government , or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, “This you may not see, this you are forbidden to know,” the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives.”
Underline "no matter how holy the motives". They always have wonderful reasons for wanting to take freedom away from you.
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