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Old 30th March 2019, 06:15 PM   #41
RolandRat
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
The letter writer in the OP really notices young women in leggings!

I think I need the address of the church where these ladies in painted on leggings attend. For purely sceptical, research purposes of course *shifty eyes*
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Old 30th March 2019, 08:22 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Women can wear whatever they want. They just shouldn't get mad when I notice the outline of their genitals. Yes, I like looking at female genitals and will not pretend otherwise.

Agree with the highlighted. It's like when a woman says "My eyes are up here..."

"Yeah sorry I was glancing at your Wonderbra-enhanced and highly exposed cleavage, and the ugly already half-faded tat on your left breast, just like you obviously want people to do. So sorry."

"Oh no! I do that for meeeee!"

I don't care for leggings even on a great body. A little mystery is a good thing. Plus most people who wear them just shouldn't - I don't know if they use funhouse mirrors at home, but honey....you don't look good.

More than anything though it makes me think to myself, "Why would anyone wear those in public?" Hey, I'm no prude I managed a small strip club for some years.

I rarely see them where I live. I think a poster above said that 50% of women in wherever the poster lives wear them. Thank gawd that isn't true here because 90% of the men and women here - <shudders> - nevermind.
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Old 30th March 2019, 09:46 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Only Catholics?
For Catholics even thinking impure thoughts is a heinous sin.
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Old 30th March 2019, 10:23 PM   #44
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I recall Fr. Paul suggested a dress code for church as summer began each year. And that was before everyone wore stylish gym wear as regular street wear.

I take my son to school the same time as many and some of the ladies hit the gym after the kids are in.

Fully agreed some gyms here need dressing rooms as not all give Lycra a good image.

But as is normal with the ladies new color coordinated shoes and Lycra outfit, never old shoes or mix and match anything. A few have a collection of gym bags to make sure on yellow and black day no green bag to ruin the image.

It isn't about reducing the backside or keeping in shape. It's a fashion contest. Get to the spinning class and try to make another look sloppy by dressing better at any cost.
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:00 AM   #45
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There are several church-appropriate variations of this theme:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Chur...827711067.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-...823080839.html
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/559431584934039885/
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:13 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
For Catholics even thinking impure thoughts is a heinous sin.
But is it any less arousing for everyone else
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:20 AM   #47
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As someone who did contract work at a uni for 6 months last year I say keep leggings. Please keep leggings

With the blokes side of things

Dudes shouldn't wear them. Ever

And dudes wearing skirts isn't "Outside the box. Risque" You just look stupid, unless you actually have a reason like being a Pacific Islander.

And as a side note. I am amazed how many students still wear Dead Kennedys and Ramones t-shirts and doc Martins
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Old 31st March 2019, 03:19 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Women wear them to their yoga class. Clearly, not because they are trying to be sexy, erotic, or otherwise eye-catching or to be noticed. They wear them because they are comfortable when doing yoga.
Do you know how much a pair of tights from lululemon cost?

Like most people I choose my clothes based on both comfort and appearance. When doing yoga it's important to be able to move freely, and yoga pants are great for that. But that doesn't explain having 20 different pairs of yoga pants. The women I know like to look good.

Hell, so do I.
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Old 31st March 2019, 03:25 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
So is it entirely crazy to ask that people be thoughtful about the psychological response clothing choices might evoke? We can talk about where we draw the line, from exposed ankles to yoga pants to nothing but body paint. My personal inkling is that cultural norms decide where that line is, but I wouldn't consider there to be no line, or that people are entirely unreasonable if their cultural experience is out of line with general norms.
Being thoughtful about it makes sense, but you seem to be implying more than that. If I think "If I wear my yoga pants out in the street people will think I'm weird and maybe some of them will stare at my ass", that seems like a reasonable thought, but if I'm okay with that I don't see why anyone should think I've done something wrong in making that decision.
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Old 31st March 2019, 04:49 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Women can wear whatever they want. They just shouldn't get mad when I notice the outline of their genitals. Yes, I like looking at female genitals and will not pretend otherwise.
Somewhere in that bag of meat in our heads, we are programmed for it. It's instinctive. Why bother fighting it? No red blooded male I know would even try. Sit back and enjoy the view, say I.

Actually acting on it is a whole other thing.
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Old 31st March 2019, 05:20 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
They just shouldn't get mad when I notice...
It's really odd how often rude behavior gets excused as merely "noticing" something, as if anyone could seriously buy the pretense that the complaint is about just "noticing" instead of how you behave once you've noticed.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
It's like when a woman says "My eyes are up here..."

"Yeah sorry I was glancing at your Wonderbra-enhanced and highly exposed cleavage, and the ugly already half-faded tat on your left breast, just like you obviously want people to do. So sorry."
The fact that any decision they make about their appearance is to get somebody else's attention does not mean that you are the intended target.
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Old 31st March 2019, 05:32 AM   #52
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Working in campus law enforcement as I do... I use the very nice college gym twice a week.
My constant subvocal mantra is...
“Don’t stare at the butt...Don’t stare at the butt...”

Some of these weight-training young women have spectacular bods....

And the leggings and yoga-pants are ubiquitous.
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Old 31st March 2019, 05:46 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It's really odd how often rude behavior gets excused as merely "noticing" something, as if anyone could seriously buy the pretense that the complaint is about just "noticing" instead of how you behave once you've noticed.

The fact that any decision they make about their appearance is to get somebody else's attention does not mean that you are the intended target.

Sometimes the decision about what to wear has more to do with the weather than with appearance, but maybe it's just because I'm Scandinavian. Until this time of the year, we don't see many women wearing yoga pants.
I always tell men who say that, 'She only dresses that way because she wants to get laid," yes, maybe, probably, but that doesn't mean that she wants to get laid by you.
However, if she dresses to catch the attention of men, she shouldn't be offended when she does, as long as all they do is stare.
Maybe she didn't want your attention in particular, but if your attention was all she got, i.e. no catcalls, no pussy grabbing, I see no reason for outrage. In most societies nobody asks women to wear burkas, so I don't see why men should have to pretend that they don't see what they see.


ETA: I dance the Son Cubano, a very elegant and romantic dance. In Cuba, they will probably consider you impolite if you pretend not to notice a woman's butt.

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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 31st March 2019, 07:20 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Being thoughtful about it makes sense, but you seem to be implying more than that.
Beyond that we get into some weird territory.

There is a question of whether it's rude or cruel to knowingly take an action that provokes an emotional response in someone who doesn't want to have that emotional response.

Cap guns as children's toys are fine, an acceptable form of play and expression. If you live next to a halfway house for soldiers with PTSD, might it be cruel to let your kids play with cap guns where the soldiers can hear it?

Sausages are fantastic. The freedome to eat what you want is important. But say a city wanted to hold a street fair celebrating their sausages in the street which happens to contain the city's only mosque, during Ramadan. So that fasting Muslims need to walk by and smell haram foods every day they go to pray. Maybe a thoughtless move.

In general I think benign intentions don't mean that one shouldn't be thoughtful about the emotional/psychological reaction one might contribute to (and here's the important part) even if the group effected is a small minority. Even if the way they're impacted is related to what can be considered choices they made like being a Muslim or joining the army.

Some people are very religious Christians, such that having strong arousal reactions is considered a sin which causes them severe distress.

And while it would be ridiculous for the whole world to avoid anything that arouses these people, it seems like being thoughtful about dress when entering spaces that are culturally centered around these groups is not unlike the sort of sensitivity that we as a society often applaud or demand for other groups.
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Old 31st March 2019, 07:39 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Shock that nobody has posted the video of "Catholic Schoolgirls Rule" by the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
I just looked it up on youtube. I can't believe they showed actual breasts. On a Youtube music videoclip! There is a God after all!!
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Old 31st March 2019, 08:01 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
And while it would be ridiculous for the whole world to avoid anything that arouses these people, it seems like being thoughtful about dress when entering spaces that are culturally centered around these groups is not unlike the sort of sensitivity that we as a society often applaud or demand for other groups.

You may not share their faith, and you may even find it silly, but you're on their territory and should abide by what their customs require you to do. It's not much of an inconvenience. It's not like they're asking you to get baptized or circumcised ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st March 2019, 08:02 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I just looked it up on youtube. I can't believe they showed actual breasts. On a Youtube music videoclip! There is a God after all!!
POSTFU!
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:15 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Some people are very religious Christians, such that having strong arousal reactions is considered a sin which causes them severe distress.

And while it would be ridiculous for the whole world to avoid anything that arouses these people, it seems like being thoughtful about dress when entering spaces that are culturally centered around these groups is not unlike the sort of sensitivity that we as a society often applaud or demand for other groups.
The incident that the opinion piece focused on supposedly took place during mass at the "Basilica of the Sacred Heart" which is a Roman Catholic Church in Notre Dame, Indiana.

I can't but help feel that if Catholics, and especially catholic mothers, become so distressed from seeing shapely young women dressed in certain ways, then they should establish a mandated dress code that requires people women to dress modestly in their churches and whatever other premises they may have.

Otherwise people have very little right to restrict or interfere with others publicly acting or being clad in a way that's perfectly legal. Generally speaking, the responsibility to avoid objectionable stimuli is on the person who finds it objectionable, not everyone else.
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:16 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Did Marge Simpson write this?
Of course not. The Simpsons are not Catholic.
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:28 AM   #60
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:39 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I can't but help feel that if Catholics, and especially catholic mothers, become so distressed from seeing shapely young women dressed in certain ways, then they should establish a mandated dress code that requires people women to dress modestly in their churches and whatever other premises they may have.
What Catholic mother?
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:48 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Working in campus law enforcement as I do... I use the very nice college gym twice a week.
My constant subvocal mantra is...
“Don’t stare at the butt...Don’t stare at the butt...”

Some of these weight-training young women have spectacular bods....

And the leggings and yoga-pants are ubiquitous.
I work out regularly at a college gym too (just as a local resident). It's very hard not to be a dirty old man at times. I mean, let's face it, some of those girls (and some of the older ones too) are very nice looking!

I'm with others here in hoping that some day in some world we can just dress as we please, and those of us who like the scenery can look as we please, and nobody will be threatened, intimidated, marginalized, or whatever else by the plain fact that looking at attractive bodies is a pleasurable aspect of human social life.

I also wouldn't mind if people relaxed the double standard, Men walk around with pot bellies and t shirts and greasy jeans and nobody berates them for showing up looking bad. Fat women should be able to wear comfortable pants and if you don't like the look, don't look.
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:34 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Men walk around with pot bellies and t shirts and greasy jeans ...

... and sometimes even yoga pants!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:52 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What Catholic mother?
On a random shot in the dark I'd guess it would be the one in the OP.
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:55 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
On a random shot in the dark I'd guess it would be the one in the OP.
Maryanne White. Is she real?
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Old 31st March 2019, 11:10 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Of course not. The Simpsons are not Catholic.
Definitely not:

Quote:
Bart: Oh, I'm starving! Mom, can we go Catholic, so we can get communion wafers and booze?

Marge: No, no one's going Catholic! Three children is enough, thank you.
They're Presbylutherans.
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Old 31st March 2019, 11:34 AM   #67
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Do leggings make women just too arousing for Catholic men (and women) to handle?

Yoga pants are everywhere here and I am not buying that women wear them because they are coming from yoga class. There aren’t enough yoga places to fit them all!

It’s hot here, so I might buy that they are comfortable. But shorts are way more comfortable than what amounts to fashionable plastic wrap. But then, why booty shorts? Which is what a lot of young women here wear also.

From my male point of view, you wear it, I’m looking. And my reaction might be “Oh baby,” or it might be “please go home and change.” But the ladies will never know. Judge me if you want, but it can be arousing. Not, “I’m inspired to act like a jackass with you,” or, “I’m feeling a bit rapey now,” arousing or even, “I’m sporting a woody, now,” arousing. Just arousing in the sense that it’s nice to look at and I get pleasure out of it.

If you are going to church, presumably you believe in what the church says. So I can see that it’s inappropriate. But God also says, “judge not,” and I don’t think God cares how you dress so why should anyone else? We are human, after all, sinners through and through. Some guys might need to hit the confessional, but so what?
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Old 31st March 2019, 01:43 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yoga pants are everywhere here and I am not buying that women wear them because they are coming from yoga class. There aren’t enough yoga places to fit them all!

It’s hot here, so I might buy that they are comfortable. But shorts are way more comfortable than what amounts to fashionable plastic wrap. But then, why booty shorts? Which is what a lot of young women here wear also.

From my male point of view, you wear it, I’m looking. And my reaction might be “Oh baby,” or it might be “please go home and change.” But the ladies will never know. Judge me if you want, but it can be arousing. Not, “I’m inspired to act like a jackass with you,” or, “I’m feeling a bit rapey now,” arousing or even, “I’m sporting a woody, now,” arousing. Just arousing in the sense that it’s nice to look at and I get pleasure out of it.

If you are going to church, presumably you believe in what the church says. So I can see that it’s inappropriate. But God also says, “judge not,” and I don’t think God cares how you dress so why should anyone else? We are human, after all, sinners through and through. Some guys might need to hit the confessional, but so what?
Yoga pants aren't plastic wrap. They are made of comfortable breathable material.

They are very comfortable.
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Old 31st March 2019, 01:51 PM   #69
Skeptical Greg
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I can't remember anything in the bible about leggings, or any alluring attire for that matter..
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Old 31st March 2019, 01:52 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yoga pants aren't plastic wrap. They are made of comfortable breathable material.



They are very comfortable.

They are made out of plastic and they wrap tightly around your lower body is all I really meant. I used to wear the male equivalent when I ran half-marathons and yes, they are comfortable and breathable. But when it’s 90+ degrees outside, they are still rather warm.

Even when I wore them, I still put shorts on over them lest the ladies faint
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Old 31st March 2019, 01:56 PM   #71
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When these things first came out everyone called them "spandex" pants. I know that is a specific trademarked name just like "jello" or "kleenex", but for more than a decade they were called spandex. Not leggings. Not yoga pants. Spandex!
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:10 PM   #72
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How did nobody post this yet?
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Old 31st March 2019, 03:26 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maryanne White. Is she real?
I don't know. Her attitude is not unique however. If anything most people who object to "indecent clothing" tend to be more hostile, misogynistic and far less tolerant in their diatribes.
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Old 31st March 2019, 03:26 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
But is it any less arousing for everyone else
Does anyone else have to confess this to a priest?
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Old 31st March 2019, 06:11 PM   #75
Skeptical Greg
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
When these things first came out everyone called them "spandex" pants. I know that is a specific trademarked name just like "jello" or "kleenex", but for more than a decade they were called spandex. Not leggings. Not yoga pants. Spandex!
Been here, in the world, a while, and do not ever recall hearing a particular garment referred to as " Spandex ", or " a spandex " or " a pair of spandex "..

Unlike spandex, leggings are a garment and not a fabric, although they can be made out of Spandex..
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Old 31st March 2019, 06:32 PM   #76
Venom
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Does anyone else have to confess this to a priest?
I wouldn't if I was them.
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Old 31st March 2019, 08:35 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Does anyone else have to confess this to a priest?
Which reminds me of a song....

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Old 1st April 2019, 08:30 AM   #78
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BTW, this isn't actually a new problem.

New Evidence Suggests King David Actually Saw Bathsheba Wearing Leggings As Pants
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:48 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Beyond that we get into some weird territory.

There is a question of whether it's rude or cruel to knowingly take an action that provokes an emotional response in someone who doesn't want to have that emotional response.

Sorry, no. You're making too many false equivalency fallacies in this post.

How someone dresses should be their business alone. How someone reacts is solely and entirely up to the person reacting. How I react to someone walking nearly-nude down the street is just as much my own responsibility as how I react to someone walking down the street in arctic survival gear. In no way is whoever I'm looking at "responsible" for my thoughts and actions.

If I think someone is attractive, then I will look, but I will do my best not to be a creep about it. And unless there is already a clear indication that the person wants comments, I'll keep my thoughts to myself.

Insisting that someone else's appearance invites anything more than an appreciative or disapproving glance is nothing but an attempt to shift responsibility for one's own lack of self-control to the target of that lack of self-control. It's a very popular tactic of religious fanatics for a reason: It absolves them of responsibility for their actions. "It's not my fault I raped/groped/harassed/catcalled that person, just look at how they were dressed!". Not just religious fanatics, of course, plenty of men, and a few women, have found it a popular excuse for refusing to take responsibility for their own poor behaviour.

Once you start trying to police other peoples' appearance to justify your own sensibilities, you're starting down a slippery slope that can too-easily end up in oppressive, sometimes brutally oppressive, social customs and legislation.
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Old 1st April 2019, 12:01 PM   #80
luchog
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I can't remember anything in the bible about leggings, or any alluring attire for that matter..

There is one passage in scripture that is very often used to support restrictions on womens' appearance; mainly because it is the only passage in scripture which speaks about appearance.

“Women should adorn themselves modestly and appropriately and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with elaborate hair arrangement or gold or pearls or expensive clothing” -- 1 Timothy 2:9

The problem is, most people stop reading after "modestly". Reading the entire passage, and the context in which it occurs, this has nothing to do with showing a particular degree of skin, but is entirely about ostentatious displays of wealth and social status. Clothing and hair at the time were often used to announce one's families wealth through the use of jewelry and other adornments, expensive fabrics (and in particular voluminous use of said fabrics), and other adornments. In modern terms, "conspicuous consumption". In addition to that, elaborate hairstyles that required a considerable amount of time to achieve indicated social status either through a complex code of customary appearance, or simply announced that one had the leisure time necessary to achieve such styles, and did not engage in any manual labour that may risk unraveling or otherwise disrupting the hairdo.

Funnily enough, this one one of the passages that has been most consistently ignored and downplayed throughout the history of Christianity, with most "Christians" engaged in the precise sort of ostentatious displays of wealth and class they are adjured to avoid.
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