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Old 4th April 2019, 09:04 AM   #121
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
@ponderturtle,
As usual, I don't feel like you are engaging with me honestly, inserting lots of unrelated things and inferences ("darkies" ??? abortion?) instead of addressing the facts of mainstream Islamic beliefs and how they might qualify as hateful, and therefore the religion as hateful, and therefore SYMBOLS of said religion as hateful.

I don't disagree that catholics (all religions) hold goofy and often harmful views, and that this impacts policy. That's partly why I am an anti-theist and that was precisely my point about Islam since the Hijab was of discussion (though I think stoning is a tad more serious than refusing to do certain surgeries or whatever the policy is you're referring to - I don't know the details of this and think it's a derail)
I get it you hate muslims more than christians. Good for you.
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Old 4th April 2019, 09:24 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No. A guy and his girlfriend saw the Sword Guy glaring at them while wearing a MAGA hat. They flipped off (middle finger) the Sword Guy. Then Sword Guy yelled homophobic slurs at the heterosexual couple. Then the couple went inside the rink to skate.
Yes. From link in post #33:

Originally Posted by Rink owner David Miles
...as one of the customers left the rink, he flipped off the harasser who then pulled out a long blade and slashed at the man’s finger, cutting him across his hand and wrist.
Originally Posted by William Parcher
Well, police are saying that a person knocked the hat off of Sword Guy and then Sword Guy drew his sword and slashed the person's hand or arm.
They are saying the hat was knocked off, but I think a statement from the victim will be the last word on the fine details.
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Last edited by Thermal; 4th April 2019 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 4th April 2019, 09:35 AM   #123
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Now aint that just like a liberal. Brings a finger to a sword fight.


(I'm a liberal who fences, so I'm allowed to make that joke, right?)
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Old 4th April 2019, 09:43 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes. From link in post #33:
Yes, I see.

Also this...

Originally Posted by NBC Bay Area
“I don’t think he realized how bad he got cut, because he chased this guy almost a full block down the street,” said roller rink owner David Miles Jr. “He was just bleeding like a horse.”
Chased Sword Guy for nearly a full block. Then he came right back to the slashing spot to bleed out some more? Anyway, Miles didn't witness the attack and maybe he didn't witness the chase either. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...507902231.html


Originally Posted by Thermal
They are saying the hat was knocked off, but I think a statement from the victim will be the last word on the fine details.
I don't think that the victim is going to speak at this point. The whole thing is strange, weird and bizarre. Nobody seems very intent on finding Sword Guy since nobody has put his description on the web.
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Old 4th April 2019, 09:45 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Now aint that just like a liberal. Brings a finger to a sword fight.


(I'm a liberal who fences, so I'm allowed to make that joke, right?)
When I fenced they made us run laps for saying "sword" instead of "weapon". Five laps. Now.
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Old 4th April 2019, 10:01 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yes, I see.

Also this...



Chased Sword Guy for nearly a full block. Then he came right back to the slashing spot to bleed out some more? Anyway, Miles didn't witness the attack and maybe he didn't witness the chase either. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...507902231.html



I don't think that the victim is going to speak at this point. The whole thing is strange, weird and bizarre. Nobody seems very intent on finding Sword Guy since nobody has put his description on the web.
I have located this:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 4th April 2019, 10:15 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
When I fenced they made us run laps for saying "sword" instead of "weapon". Five laps. Now.

I'm not sport fencer, I'm a classical fencer. I'll thank you for having your man direct the above to one of my seconds.
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Old 4th April 2019, 10:55 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I get it you hate muslims more than christians. Good for you.
I don't hate either category of people. I wouldn't even say I "hate" their religions, despite my problems with them. I think both religions are harmful, and sometimes this includes their adherents. That said, Christianity is usually closer to home (and therefore more of a direct problem) but Islam is usually worse when it comes to human rights abuses. I think both should be countered. Islam was the topic of discussion (hijab as a symbol of hate), and I think it more uniquely is seen as a religion of hate (since worldwide their adherents hold much worse views on average)

This is what I mean by not feeling like I am being engaged with honestly.
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Old 4th April 2019, 11:04 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I don't hate either category of people. I wouldn't even say I "hate" their religions, despite my problems with them. I think both religions are harmful, and sometimes this includes their adherents. That said, Christianity is usually closer to home (and therefore more of a direct problem) but Islam is usually worse when it comes to human rights abuses. I think both should be countered. Islam was the topic of discussion (hijab as a symbol of hate), and I think it more uniquely is seen as a religion of hate (since worldwide their adherents hold much worse views on average)

This is what I mean by not feeling like I am being engaged with honestly.
And of course you can instantly tell what headscarf someone is wearing is, and that they are not one of the many other groups that wear headscarves and such. You of course instantly know exactly what it is.

That is the insanity of comparing a headscarf to a maga hat. Headscarves are traditional in all kinds of traditions while MAGA hats are a very specific message associated with one person who knows windmills cause cancer.

And of course there are all kinds of breaks Christianity gets on its atrocity scale, like how no one thinks of the genocides in the former Yugoslavia as being Catholic vs Orthodox with a lot of dead Muslims but of course that is exactly what it was. But those are the not as bad kind of religious wars and genocide with regards to human rights abuses. Like we don't think of the Rwandan genocide as a good christian genocide even though it was. And of course that doesn't count as a black mark against Christianity.
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Old 4th April 2019, 01:44 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Headscarves are traditional in all kinds of traditions while MAGA hats are a very specific message associated with one person who knows windmills cause cancer.
...by making sound!
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Old 4th April 2019, 02:23 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They are saying the hat was knocked off, but I think a statement from the victim will be the last word on the fine details.
The guy who got attacked has a vested interest in describing himself as a victim. Just as a matter of practical jurisprudence, his statement can't be taken as the last word on the details. Anyone who's grown up with a sibling knows how this works.
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Old 4th April 2019, 02:36 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The guy who got attacked has a vested interest in describing himself as a victim. Just as a matter of practical jurisprudence, his statement can't be taken as the last word on the details. Anyone who's grown up with a sibling knows how this works.
Fair point. A man can dream that he goes all Se7en on his ass though, no?
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Old 4th April 2019, 02:44 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Bay Area Reporter
"We can't comment on what the hat specifically said, but can say the victim flipped the hat off of the suspect and, as a result, the suspect produced a large sword, a very large blade, and cut the victim's hand and fled the scene," San Francisco Police Department Officer Adam Lobsinger told the Bay Area Reporter Monday. "We can't confirm anything that was said or the specific events leading up to the incident."

Police took witness statements and collected surveillance footage from nearby businesses. The case is still under active investigation...

...Although (roller rink owner David) Miles did not witness the event and was inside the rink when it happened, he rushed outside to help the victim once he heard what happened.

"I saw a guy on the ground and his arm was bleeding really, really bad. It was just oozing onto the sidewalk," Miles said, at which point paramedics and the police arrived and took over the situation.

Miles does not remember seeing a MAGA hat, but said other witnesses were talking about it right after the incident happened. Miles also said that after the suspect slashed the victim's hand, the victim chased after him, until realizing how badly he was bleeding.
https://www.ebar.com/news/news//274388

Miles talks about things that he did not witness as if he did witness them. He also said the victim chased Sword Guy for almost a block but it doesn't seem that Miles actually witnessed this and that part may not have happened at all.

The things we have been reading about seem to be some eyewitness mixed with hearsay and heard-that-somebody-saw-or-said and even possibly outright lies.

The pirate outfit seems to be fiction, as far as I can tell.

The victim may have been a subscriber to "Punch a Nazi" and possibly knocked the hat off because he punched Sword Guy right in the face.
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Old 4th April 2019, 02:48 PM   #134
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Are you saying the story of an attack may all be misreported and details made up and MAGA relevance grossly exaggerated? We're supposed to believe such outlandish speculation?
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Old 4th April 2019, 02:56 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Are you saying the story of an attack may all be misreported and details made up and MAGA relevance grossly exaggerated? We're supposed to believe such outlandish speculation?
Nope I'm not saying that. The MAGA hat would seem to be very relevant and significant in this incident.
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Old 4th April 2019, 02:57 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course you can instantly tell what headscarf someone is wearing is, and that they are not one of the many other groups that wear headscarves and such. You of course instantly know exactly what it is.

That is the insanity of comparing a headscarf to a maga hat. Headscarves are traditional in all kinds of traditions while MAGA hats are a very specific message associated with one person who knows windmills cause cancer.

And of course there are all kinds of breaks Christianity gets on its atrocity scale, like how no one thinks of the genocides in the former Yugoslavia as being Catholic vs Orthodox with a lot of dead Muslims but of course that is exactly what it was. But those are the not as bad kind of religious wars and genocide with regards to human rights abuses. Like we don't think of the Rwandan genocide as a good christian genocide even though it was. And of course that doesn't count as a black mark against Christianity.
You realize some people *gasp* some of whom are white, know as much or more about the various types of headwear than yourself right?

Your logic only works if everyone assumes you are the smartest guy in the room. Evidence for this is sorely lacking, leaving your point invalid.
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Old 4th April 2019, 03:00 PM   #137
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There are a few photos of the MAGA hat near the blood. It was manipulated in between photos - apparently so that the words would be more visible.
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Old 4th April 2019, 03:06 PM   #138
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A red bandanna would make sense for a pirate costume.
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Old 4th April 2019, 03:18 PM   #139
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White shirt with billowy sleeves. A vest. Tall leather boots. Pants tucked into the boots. A pirate's hat. A visible sword at the hip. These things make a pirate's outfit. A guy dressed as a pirate.

Nobody saw that or else multiple people would have mentioned it. Finger-flipper hetero guy would have mentioned the pirate outfit. But he didn't.

I believe that Miles is the one saying he was dressed like a pirate only because Miles heard someone say that he had a sword.

There is no mention of anything pirate-like at all other than the sword.
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Old 4th April 2019, 03:24 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Nope I'm not saying that. The MAGA hat would seem to be very relevant and significant in this incident.
Are we talking hot sauce bottle relevant, or more hardware store rope video purchase relevant, or what?
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Old 4th April 2019, 03:25 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
White shirt with billowy sleeves. A vest. Tall leather boots. Pants tucked into the boots. A pirate's hat. A visible sword at the hip. These things make a pirate's outfit. A guy dressed as a pirate.

Nobody saw that or else multiple people would have mentioned it. Finger-flipper hetero guy would have mentioned the pirate outfit. But he didn't.

I believe that Miles is the one saying he was dressed like a pirate only because Miles heard someone say that he had a sword.

There is no mention of anything pirate-like at all other than the sword.
Perhaps he torrents?

Or maybe he is the captain now?
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Old 4th April 2019, 03:27 PM   #142
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The MAGA hat is mightier than the sword.
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Old 4th April 2019, 03:52 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
White shirt with billowy sleeves. A vest. Tall leather boots. Pants tucked into the boots. A pirate's hat. A visible sword at the hip. These things make a pirate's outfit. A guy dressed as a pirate.

Nobody saw that or else multiple people would have mentioned it. Finger-flipper hetero guy would have mentioned the pirate outfit. But he didn't.

I believe that Miles is the one saying he was dressed like a pirate only because Miles heard someone say that he had a sword.

There is no mention of anything pirate-like at all other than the sword.
"To you, it was a pirate outfit. To me, it was Tuesday in San Francisco."

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Old 4th April 2019, 11:03 PM   #144
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It's really funny that a guy almost had his hand cut off by a sword-wielding homophobic loon.
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Old 5th April 2019, 06:19 AM   #145
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Suspect arrested:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/ar...d-13742594.php

A man who allegedly drew a sword and slashed another man after having his “Make America Great Again” hat knocked off was arrested near his home in San Francisco’s Tenderloin neighborhood, authorities said Thursday.

Officers on Wednesday evening were staking out the low-rent residential hotel at the corner of Eddy and Larkin streets where Leor Bergland, 30, lived, then moved in on the suspect when they saw him at a nearby restaurant, police said. He surrendered quietly, they said.
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Old 5th April 2019, 06:41 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's really funny that a guy almost had his hand cut off by a sword-wielding homophobic loon.

Yes. Yes it is.
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Old 5th April 2019, 06:48 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's really funny that a guy almost had his hand cut off by a sword-wielding homophobic loon.
Can lunatics actually be homophobic, though? Usually we use the term homophobia to connote a mindful choice, something a person can can change about themselves if they want to. But the nature of madness is that the victim is in the grip of passions and ideas they cannot control. So I think a person can be a homophobe or a lunatic, but probably not both.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:15 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can lunatics actually be homophobic, though? Usually we use the term homophobia to connote a mindful choice, something a person can can change about themselves if they want to. But the nature of madness is that the victim is in the grip of passions and ideas they cannot control. So I think a person can be a homophobe or a lunatic, but probably not both.
I hear this. A mentally ill person should not be completely responsible for their actions. But I think you can be both sick and evil, depending on how ill you are. Many of us are a little ill in one form or another. If by loon, we really mean extremely unconventional, Captain Yoyo is still on the hook.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:16 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Yes. Yes it is.
It really is.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:20 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It really is.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Having dealt with a lot of people with wounds from edged weapons, as well as having dealt with those brandishing them, I suppose I have a harder time seeing the humor.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:30 AM   #151
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Quote:
Around 10 p.m. last Friday, a 27-year-old Berkeley man was standing near the intersection of Fillmore and Oak streets by the Church of 8 Wheels roller skating rink when he saw Bergland wearing the red MAGA hat, which is popular among President Trump supporters. The man swatted the hat off Bergland’s head, police said — and in return, Bergland whipped out a sword and badly slashed the victim’s left hand.
Seems like the sneering thug from Berkeley (home of the intolerant left) sowed abuse and reaped the whirlwind.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:35 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Having dealt with a lot of people with wounds from edged weapons, as well as having dealt with those brandishing them, I suppose I have a harder time seeing the humor.
Depends on how dark your sense of humor is. I've laughed at my own blood running.

This whole story runs on the assumption that the severed hand thing is even real. Based on accuracy of preliminary reporting in days of late, I'm assuming it will turn out to be needing some stitches.

Anyway, absurd is absurd. Darwin Awards are funny, too, in the abstract. Hope you are not too deeply offended.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:37 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I hear this. A mentally ill person should not be completely responsible for their actions. But I think you can be both sick and evil, depending on how ill you are. Many of us are a little ill in one form or another. If by loon, we really mean extremely unconventional, Captain Yoyo is still on the hook.
Real world example:

Guy who is off his nut and eventually commits assault and battery on his victim (in front of witnesses and a security camera) calls his victim and all the bystanders the "N" word, repeatedly.

His victim was white, the actor hispanic and none of the witnesses were black.

Hate crime charges? no. 5150 hold, yes. found competent to stand trial, prior convictions, on parole, Remanded to custody w/o trial.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:39 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Seems like the sneering thug from Berkeley (home of the intolerant left) sowed abuse and reaped the whirlwind.
Sneering thug being the guy who attacks with a freaking sword in response to a lid-flip, I take it. Point made.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:42 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Seems like the sneering thug from Berkeley (home of the intolerant left) sowed abuse and reaped the whirlwind.
Disparate use of force is a fail.

No matter how much of a douche is encountered, GBH as a reaction to what amounts to insult isn't a lawful use of force.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:46 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This whole story runs on the assumption that the severed hand thing is even real. Based on accuracy of preliminary reporting in days of late, I'm assuming it will turn out to be needing some stitches.
I don't think that his hand was nearly severed. That is a very serious injury. All reports say that he went to the hospital and was treated and released. Nothing about overnight stay or attempts to reattach the hand. It was probably a deep cut that was stitched up.

Also we now read from police that the victim and a witness chased Sword Guy but then stopped because Sword Guy turned and confronted them. That could have been dangerous. But we were first told that the victim stopped chasing because he suddenly realized how badly he was injured.
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:50 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't think that his hand was nearly severed. That is a very serious injury. All reports say that he went to the hospital and was treated and released. Nothing about overnight stay or attempts to reattach the hand. It was probably a deep cut that was stitched up.

Also we now read from police that the victim and a witness chased Sword Guy but then stopped because Sword Guy turned and confronted them. That could have been dangerous. But we were first told that the victim stopped chasing because he suddenly realized how badly he was injured.
The media got initial reports wrong! [Sicilianlawyervoice]Inconceivable![/Sicilianlawyervoice]
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Old 5th April 2019, 07:53 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The media got initial reports wrong! [Sicilianlawyervoice]Inconceivable![/Sicilianlawyervoice]
Given what we have seen in the press with this incident, my guess is that a supposed witness told a reporter something that wasn't really true.
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Old 5th April 2019, 08:01 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Disparate use of force is a fail.

No matter how much of a douche is encountered, GBH as a reaction to what amounts to insult isn't a lawful use of force.
Sorry, we don't get to look at it after the fact and conclude that the battery was just an insult because the guy was an intolerant douchebag.
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Old 5th April 2019, 08:24 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sorry, we don't get to look at it after the fact and conclude that the battery was just an insult because the guy was an intolerant douchebag.
Having been around a bit, I can tell you that I'm unaware of any hat incident that degenerated into a lethal force incident.

Had the mad hatter swatted the hand of the tipper away with their hand, all would have been good at that point.

If the mad tipper escalated their use of force and escalated the potential physical threat of injury to the victim, the use of a weapon may be justified but that's not in evidence.
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