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Old 5th April 2019, 08:29 AM   #161
Thermal
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Having been around a bit, I can tell you that I'm unaware of any hat incident that degenerated into a lethal force incident.

Had the mad hatter swatted the hand of the tipper away with their hand, all would have been good at that point.

If the mad tipper escalated their use of force and escalated the potential physical threat of injury to the victim, the use of a weapon may be justified but that's not in evidence.
Good analysis, but you forgot to include 'intolerant left' in the matrix
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Old 5th April 2019, 08:34 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Having been around a bit, I can tell you that I'm unaware of any hat incident that degenerated into a lethal force incident.

Had the mad hatter swatted the hand of the tipper away with their hand, all would have been good at that point.

If the mad tipper escalated their use of force and escalated the potential physical threat of injury to the victim, the use of a weapon may be justified but that's not in evidence.
Only be the grace of god. In fact there have been several that involved serious blows to the head (Professor Bikelock and the Berkley puncher come immediately to mind) that could have quite easily have been fatal. Who knows when the intolerant left is going to snap next.
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Old 5th April 2019, 08:36 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Disparate use of force is a fail.

No matter how much of a douche is encountered, GBH as a reaction to what amounts to insult isn't a lawful use of force.
I agree to a good extent. I wouldn't even really consider this a good situation to brandish the weapon. In fact I'd say it is a situation where if armed,you should just walk away. As if you get in a fight now your weapon could be used against you meaning you are basically forced into having to use it.

Though if the guy said " listen, I'm packing a sword, and I don't want to have to use it. Leave me alone let me get my hat and we have no problems. " and the guy persisted ,id feel differently.

If you are armed and have the time to tell someone, and they still persist, that is their fault. But if you are armed it is your duty to minimize the situations in which you have to use your weapon.

If it was hat flip to immediate slash ( the man was surprised is what I'm getting at) and the guy stayed around for the cops I'd also feel different. But this situation does not have the hallmarks of self defense, nor of someone who felt they were acting in self defense.

I've gone armed for self defense almost every day of my adult life, and only once did I tell someone I was armed to stop a conflict ( it worked and in that situation id likely have not drawn the blade, and ran ) , and pulled out a large knife once during a home invasion. Both situations the mere fact it existed was enough to stop the situation.

But what I did do once ( much younger days) when a bar brawl broke out ( oddly over a hat. An ex friend stole an expensive one from a friend months before and said person was at a bar, my friend took the hat not noticing the guy was with a group ) is throw a rather expensive knife into the distance before jumping in as it simply would have made the situation much worse if it came into play for any reason.

I support being armed,but it comes with responsibilities. And one of those is to know when to not use your weapon.
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Old 5th April 2019, 08:39 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Only be the grace of god. In fact there have been several that involved serious blows to the head (Professor Bikelock and the Berkley puncher come immediately to mind) that could have quite easily have been fatal. Who knows when the intolerant left is going to snap next.
Seriously. I've read that they throw themselves under cars and bullets randomly. Sad.
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Old 5th April 2019, 08:42 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Only be the grace of god. In fact there have been several that involved serious blows to the head (Professor Bikelock and the Berkley puncher come immediately to mind) that could have quite easily have been fatal. Who knows when the intolerant left is going to snap next.
Part of being combat capable is knowing when not to use your weapon. My line is a threat gets an explination that I'm armed, so does a shove or hat tip ( assuming said shove left you on your feet), any actual attack that doesn't give me time, it's a different story.

Once someone knows the stakes, it's on them. But it's my duty to try my hardest to inform them.
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Old 5th April 2019, 08:45 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Seriously. I've read that they throw themselves under cars and bullets randomly. Sad.
There are violent ******** on the left but I don't think this applies here. This was just one regular ******* who came up against another and paid wholesale for it. No respect for either party and minor sympathy for hat tipper as he couldn't have known the guy had a sword. ( if he did zero sympathy)
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Old 5th April 2019, 08:56 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Part of being combat capable is knowing when not to use your weapon. My line is a threat gets an explination that I'm armed, so does a shove or hat tip ( assuming said shove left you on your feet), any actual attack that doesn't give me time, it's a different story.

Once someone knows the stakes, it's on them. But it's my duty to try my hardest to inform them.
having seen the individual, and looked into his history, including numerous years on the street, I am quite comfortable is saying this individual was not 'combat capable' and had the weapon for protection, and that the person who initiated the assault by knocking his hat off has only himself to blame.
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Old 5th April 2019, 09:29 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sorry, we don't get to look at it after the fact and conclude that the battery was just an insult because the guy was an intolerant douchebag.
Yeah, actually,we do. More accurately, prosecutors do. Well, it's not exactly like you said. Of course, being an intolerant douchebag doesn't excuse anything. However, no one claims, or perhaps no one admits, that sword dude was attacked for wearing a maga hat. The claim is that his behavior was threatening. Prosecutors will have to evaluate who threatened whom, and who attacked whom, and whether the response to any attack was appropriate self defense. I would like to think that the words on his hat won't play a role in the decision but that's pretty optimistic.

At any rate, I don't know what to believe in this case. If it turns out that the sword guy was exercising his free speech, and was assaulted, then those committing the assault should be charged. However, sword guy doesn't get off the hook automatically even then. He used a deadly weapon. It's on him to convince a prosecutor and or jury that it was justifiable self defense. I don't think that will be easy. People tend to be suspicious of folks who carry deadly weapons "just in case".
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Old 5th April 2019, 09:31 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Only be the grace of god. In fact there have been several that involved serious blows to the head (Professor Bikelock and the Berkley puncher come immediately to mind) that could have quite easily have been fatal. Who knows when the intolerant left is going to snap next.
Another fail, or are you unaware of the difference between touching clothing and taking a metal object to someone's skull?
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Old 5th April 2019, 09:45 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Having been around a bit, I can tell you that I'm unaware of any hat incident that degenerated into a lethal force incident.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Only be the grace of god. In fact there have been several that involved serious blows to the head (Professor Bikelock and the Berkley puncher come immediately to mind) that could have quite easily have been fatal. Who knows when the intolerant left is going to snap next.
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Another fail, or are you unaware of the difference between touching clothing and taking a metal object to someone's skull?
I was directly replying to a comment you had made. Not sure why you ignored that and moved the goalposts. Oh well.
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Old 5th April 2019, 10:43 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I was directly replying to a comment you had made. Not sure why you ignored that and moved the goalposts. Oh well.
There was no MAGA hat involved in the Berkeley bike lock assault and the Berkeley campus assault wasn't a lethal force incident for the part of the victim.

Simple Assault/assault and battery is not generally recognized as being lethal force qualifiers outside of victims that could make a credible case that a simple grab or punch put them in reasonable fear of their lives. The victim of the bike lock assault would have had a pretty good justification after the blow had the scumbag that blindsided him not beat feet, The kid that got punched on campus, not so much.

I did this stuff for a living. Whatever "whataboutism" you throw up with regard to use of force isn't going to get you very far.
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Old 5th April 2019, 10:50 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
There was no MAGA hat involved in the Berkeley bike lock assault and the Berkeley campus assault wasn't a lethal force incident for the part of the victim.

Simple Assault/assault and battery is not generally recognized as being lethal force qualifiers outside of victims that could make a credible case that a simple grab or punch put them in reasonable fear of their lives. The victim of the bike lock assault would have had a pretty good justification after the blow had the scumbag that blindsided him not beat feet, The kid that got punched on campus, not so much.

I did this stuff for a living. Whatever "whataboutism" you throw up with regard to use of force isn't going to get you very far.
You literally asked for example, and then declare whataboutism isn't going to get me very far? That is amazing! You say you do that for a living huh? What does a monday morning quarterback earn anyway?

By the way, there were plenty of MAGA hats around when Professor Bikelock was using lethal force, the guy kneeling wasn't the only one he assaulted.

Last edited by The Big Dog; 5th April 2019 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 5th April 2019, 11:04 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You literally asked for example, and then declare whataboutism isn't going to get me very far? That is amazing! You say you do that for a living huh? What does a monday morning quarterback earn anyway?
The right to comment authoritatively.

Quote:
By the way, there were plenty of MAGA hats around when Professor Bikelock was using lethal force, he wasn't the only one he assaulted.
Was Canton, coward that he is, reported to have attacked a hat wearer? Was any felonious assaulting done over a hat, which is the subject in question?
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Old 5th April 2019, 11:15 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You literally asked for example, and then declare whataboutism isn't going to get me very far? That is amazing! You say you do that for a living huh? What does a monday morning quarterback earn anyway?

By the way, there were plenty of MAGA hats around when Professor Bikelock was using lethal force, he wasn't the only one he assaulted.
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I AGREE


I observe a confluence of idiots in two flavors, with the maga hats in evidence in the rear ranks. Read the quote in Latin in my sig. Anyone suiting up to profile like the two bunches of idiots in the above video imo are nothing more than fantasizing about their importance and the importance of their "cause."

If you'd like to now assert that a hat in the general area may allow someone not wearing one justification for use of force, have at it.
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Old 5th April 2019, 11:32 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
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I AGREE


I observe a confluence of idiots in two flavors, with the maga hats in evidence in the rear ranks. Read the quote in Latin in my sig. Anyone suiting up to profile like the two bunches of idiots in the above video imo are nothing more than fantasizing about their importance and the importance of their "cause."

If you'd like to now assert that a hat in the general area may allow someone not wearing one justification for use of force, have at it.
I am a bit amazed and the steady creeping of the goalposts, now circling the on ramp outside the stadium and getting on the highway.

Can I repeat again what you said?

"Having been around a bit, I can tell you that I'm unaware of any hat incident that degenerated into a lethal force incident."

I gave a couple of examples, and there are lots more.

I gave the bike lock example, and you quibbled that the guy he actually hit wasn't wearing a MAGA hat, and that the hats were in the back row, and (various moving goalposts snipped...)

and now we have this:

"If you'd like to now assert that a hat in the general area may allow someone not wearing one justification for use of force, have at it."

You literally have that backwards, at no time did I say Professor Bikelock, or this mutt who got his hand cut had any justification at all for attacking the initial victim.
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Old 5th April 2019, 11:33 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
By the way, there were plenty of MAGA hats around when Professor Bikelock was using lethal force, the guy kneeling wasn't the only one he assaulted.
Deadly force. It's only lethal force if someone actually dies.
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Old 5th April 2019, 11:48 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am a bit amazed and the steady creeping of the goalposts, now circling the on ramp outside the stadium and getting on the highway.

blah blah snipped.
Your MAGA hat wearing virgin victims are not in evidence. Any evidence of a hat being the impetus of a justified lethal force incident is not in evidence.

As evidence seems not to exist in any fashion other than your imagination, I'll leave it to you to indulge your fantasies.
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Old 5th April 2019, 12:23 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Your MAGA hat wearing virgin victims are not in evidence. Any evidence of a hat being the impetus of a justified lethal force incident is not in evidence.

As evidence seems not to exist in any fashion other than your imagination, I'll leave it to you to indulge your fantasies.
The what? The "justified" lethal force? WTF???

Let me look AGAIN at what I was replying to:

Quote:
Having been around a bit, I can tell you that I'm unaware of any hat incident that degenerated into a lethal force incident.
Oh dear, the goalposts were not getting on a highway, that was an on-ramp to the cargo hold of a Space X rocket which totally lost control and is now hurdling towards Uranaus!

Oh crumbs, that is what a fella gets when he tries to argue against the monday morning quarterback, the juror, and the Judge all in one go.

Super well argued, tho....

hoo boy
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Old 6th April 2019, 11:02 AM   #179
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MAGA-HAT CLAD MAN CHARGED WITH ATTEMPTED MURDER FOR ALLEGEDLY SLICING MAN WITH SWORD IN SAN FRANCISCO


https://www.newsweek.com/maga-hat-cl...rd-san-1388123
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Old 6th April 2019, 12:33 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
having seen the individual, and looked into his history, including numerous years on the street, I am quite comfortable is saying this individual was not 'combat capable' and had the weapon for protection, and that the person who initiated the assault by knocking his hat off has only himself to blame.
Having a legitimate weapon and knowing how to use it is becoming combat effective. I'm a 5"7 guy, but with the correct weapon I can punch well above my weight. Packing a sword as long as you can use it makes one combat capable (in a civilian sense).
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Old 6th April 2019, 12:53 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
having seen the individual, and looked into his history, including numerous years on the street, I am quite comfortable is saying this individual was not 'combat capable' and had the weapon for protection, and that the person who initiated the assault by knocking his hat off has only himself to blame.

Yes, the MAGA swordsman was totally innocent! From the Newsweek article:

Quote:
Bergland had been seen outside the skating rink earlier in the evening where he was allegedly hurling anti-gay slurs at customers.

“The guy with the MAGA hat had come to the door and was harassing people, calling them names, but he didn’t come in,” Miles said.

And more MAGA madness is expected!

Quote:
“Unfortunately, we expect to see more of this. We believe that white nationalists and far-right extremists represent the most prominent extremism threats,” Levin said. “At a time of intense division, as well as the accession of euro or white nationalism, you’re going to get these retaliatory movements to arise as well, even though white nationalism is broadly dispersed and has the most followers.”
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Old 6th April 2019, 01:51 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, the MAGA swordsman was totally innocent! From the Newsweek article:


Quote:
Bergland had been seen outside the skating rink earlier in the evening where he was allegedly hurling anti-gay slurs at customers.

“The guy with the MAGA hat had come to the door and was harassing people, calling them names, but he didn’t come in,” Miles said.
You do understand that yelling anti-gay slurs says absolutely nothing about his guilt or innocence, right?


The fact that he was charged means that the prosecutors thought he was the aggressor in the conflict. At least, I hope that's what it means. I would hate to think that the man was attacked, and is being charged with attempted murder after defending himself. I would hope that the police and/or prosecutors are accusing him based on his violent conduct, and not on their opinion of him based on some sort of ideological position.


At trial, the man who has been charged will have an opportunity to make his case for self defense, and we can judge it, if he does so. Of course, this is America, so there probably won't be a trial. To my way of thinking, this doesn't look much like attempted murder to me, based on the fact that there was only one strike, and that was to a hand. If he wanted to kill the guy, surely he could have swung again. It seems more to me like assault with a deadly weapon. The attempted murder charge is the overcharge that the prosecutors do in the hopes of getting a plea to a lesser charge, thus avoiding the cost of a trial, not to mention the potential embarrassment if they lose.
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:28 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You do understand that yelling anti-gay slurs says absolutely nothing about his guilt or innocence, right?
It does provide context tho. As I more or less predicted on page one (I believe), the spin from the Trumpers is that this was a case of a 'leftist' trying to swat the hat off of a Trumper minding his own business. The fact that said Trumper was stood on the street yellling slurs kinda ruins that spin. Not that the Trumpers in this thread will stop lying about it.
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Old 8th April 2019, 03:07 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's really funny that a guy almost had his hand cut off by a sword-wielding homophobic loon.
He really put effort into this fake attack.
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Old 8th April 2019, 03:10 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Good analysis, but you forgot to include 'intolerant left' in the matrix
Yep the north west is hard on the intolerant left. See Jeremy Joseph Christian and how he had to defend himself after the intolerant left tried to take his free speech rights away.
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Old 8th April 2019, 03:12 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You do understand that yelling anti-gay slurs says absolutely nothing about his guilt or innocence, right?
Yep just like heroic defender of free speech Jeremy Joseph Christian. His yelling islamophoic slurs at a woman on the train is of course protected free speech, and those left wing thugs who tried to put a stop to it deserved what they got.
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Old 8th April 2019, 05:06 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Only be the grace of god. In fact there have been several that involved serious blows to the head (Professor Bikelock and the Berkley puncher come immediately to mind) that could have quite easily have been fatal. Who knows when the intolerant left is going to snap next.
People on the sidewalk could be carrying a dirty bomb in their backpack, that's why I shoot everyone that walks within a 15 yard radius of my person. Can't be too careful.

There's not right to self defense against hypothetical attacks. Someone knocking off your hat is a minor battery, lethal force is not a lawful response. Bike locks have to actually exist to be justification. There is nothing in this story to suggest that Sir Choppy had any reasonable justification to nearly slice a hand off.
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Old 8th April 2019, 05:57 AM   #188
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I seriously don't get why this is even a contentious issue? Are the battle lines in US society so hard drawn that people can't even admit that chopping someone with a sword is a bad thing to do - even worse than knocking someone's hat off - simply because said swordsman wears the head apparel of the emperor?
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:02 AM   #189
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Lesson.

Don't mess with people's hats.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:03 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It does provide context tho.
. True. Moreover, if his yelling of insults was accompanied by gestures, motions, or other actions, they could be perceived by a reasonable person as threatening, perhaps justifying the physical altercation that led to the man's hat getting knocked off.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:08 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I seriously don't get why this is even a contentious issue? Are the battle lines in US society so hard drawn that people can't even admit that chopping someone with a sword is a bad thing to do - even worse than knocking someone's hat off - simply because said swordsman wears the head apparel of the emperor?
Only one Poe-ster is defending Cap'n Yoyo. It's not a contentious issue at all. The minor quibbling about self-defense is apolitical.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:19 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I seriously don't get why this is even a contentious issue? Are the battle lines in US society so hard drawn that people can't even admit that chopping someone with a sword is a bad thing to do - even worse than knocking someone's hat off - simply because said swordsman wears the head apparel of the emperor?
The issue is whether or not the incident actually happened as described. The news media has in recent months been guilty of running stories that involve some variation of "MAGA", that turned out to be false.

Prosecutors have now weighed in, and they have access to information beyond what is in the media accounts. That lends credence to the widely reported version of events. However, as we all know, prosecutors also have biases and are subject to political pressure. Until the man pleads guilty or is convicted in court, we should at least be open to alternative explanations.

As liberals, the presumption of innocence is a very important principle. We don't have to believe that he is innocent, but we have to be open to that possibility.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:22 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The issue is whether or not the incident actually happened as described. The news media has in recent months been guilty of running stories that involve some variation of "MAGA", that turned out to be false.

Prosecutors have now weighed in, and they have access to information beyond what is in the media accounts. That lends credence to the widely reported version of events. However, as we all know, prosecutors also have biases and are subject to political pressure. Until the man pleads guilty or is convicted in court, we should at least be open to alternative explanations.

As liberals, the presumption of innocence is a very important principle. We don't have to believe that he is innocent, but we have to be open to that possibility.
Right. Let's be open to alternatives, but let's also stop speculating as that leads to unwarranted accusations.

In other words...

/thread
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:23 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I seriously don't get why this is even a contentious issue? Are the battle lines in US society so hard drawn that people can't even admit that chopping someone with a sword is a bad thing to do - even worse than knocking someone's hat off - simply because said swordsman wears the head apparel of the emperor?
Isn't that the consensus in this thread? Is there more than one person who disagree with what I've highlighted here? (tbh I didn't really read TBD's posts but I imagine he may fall into this camp you're talking about)

edit: ninja'd
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:25 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Isn't that the consensus in this thread? Is there more than one person who disagree with what I've highlighted here? (tbh I didn't really read TBD's posts but I imagine he may fall into this camp you're talking about)

edit: ninja'd
It is half the conversation. It's brought up every time someone says the victim shouldn't have swapped off the perpetrator's hat.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:28 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It is half the conversation. It's brought up every time someone says the victim shouldn't have swapped off the perpetrator's hat.
What is half the conversation? Posters saying that swiping the hat is worse than slashing in retaliation? I haven't seen this.

Saying someone shouldn't have been physical (especially the first person to do so) is certainly common in this thread, but also not not really such a terrible thing?
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Old 8th April 2019, 11:41 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
What is half the conversation? Posters saying that swiping the hat is worse than slashing in retaliation? I haven't seen this.

Saying someone shouldn't have been physical (especially the first person to do so) is certainly common in this thread, but also not not really such a terrible thing?
No, it's not a terrible thing as things go. It is, however, an effort to redirect blame.
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:12 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
MAGA-HAT CLAD MAN CHARGED WITH ATTEMPTED MURDER FOR ALLEGEDLY SLICING MAN WITH SWORD IN SAN FRANCISCO


https://www.newsweek.com/maga-hat-cl...rd-san-1388123
They never say what kind of sword. I'm guessing from the description that he "whipped out a hidden sword" that it was a cheap-ass "ninja sword" bought off the internet. Not many swords can be concealed under clothes.
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Old 9th April 2019, 06:19 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They never say what kind of sword. I'm guessing from the description that he "whipped out a hidden sword" that it was a cheap-ass "ninja sword" bought off the internet. Not many swords can be concealed under clothes.
Probably bought in a second hand store or one of the tourist shops in china town, or just stolen.

The police picked this guy up in a day residency hotel in the Tenderloin that caters to San Francisco's homeless population. I'm still betting on him being a homeless guy that self medicates his mental illness with illegal drugs of some sort. Newsweek described him as defiant in court and telling his attorney that he will defend himself. I'd bet he came by the hat the same way he came by the sword, via a five finger discount.
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Old 9th April 2019, 06:28 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Probably bought in a second hand store or one of the tourist shops in china town, or just stolen.

The police picked this guy up in a day residency hotel in the Tenderloin that caters to San Francisco's homeless population. I'm still betting on him being a homeless guy that self medicates his mental illness with illegal drugs of some sort. Newsweek described him as defiant in court and telling his attorney that he will defend himself. I'd bet he came by the hat the same way he came by the sword, via a five finger discount.
One of the links posted on this thread describes him as ex-homeless. Can't remember which one.
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