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Old 8th April 2019, 02:10 PM   #81
mumblethrax
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Generally speaking, poverty makes you stupid.

http://zhaolab.psych.ubc.ca/pdfs/Zhao_2013_Science.pdf (PDF link)
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Old 8th April 2019, 03:24 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And do you want those people working for you? Even in the mail room?

I don't.
Why not? Because they're not sufficiently motivated in the absence of monetary needs? Some people are like that: if given temptations, they will fall to sin, including sloth. That doesn't mean that in the absence of such temptation that they can't do a decent job.

Quote:
I don't think UBI is a slam dunk, but I do think most of that arguments against it are about as simplistic and misleading as the arguments against gay marriage or legalization of pot. Get past the platitudes.
The problem of people choosing not to work isn't a platitude. The numbers matter, and they're unknown, but if the numbers are too large the system will fall apart.
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Old 8th April 2019, 03:36 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I too am interested by the idea, but . . .

If we try it and it fails, will we be able to go back?
Why do you think Social Security used to be called the third rail of American politics?

What amuses me about Yang's proposal is how he hand-waves away the concern about inflation:

Quote:
The federal government recently printed $4 trillion for the bank bailouts in its quantitative easing program with no inflation. Our plan for a Universal Basic Income uses mostly money already in the economy. In monetary economics, leading theory states that inflation is based on changes in the supply of money. Our UBI plan has minimal changes in the supply of money because it is funded by a Value-added Tax.

It is likely that some companies will increase their prices in response to people having more buying power, and a VAT would also increase prices marginally. However, there will still be competition between firms that will keep prices in check. Over time, technology will continue to decrease the prices of most goods where it is allowed to do so (e.g., clothing, media, consumer electronics, etc.). The main inflation we currently experience is in sectors where automation has not been applied due to government regulation or inapplicability – primarily housing, education, and healthcare. The real issue isn’t Universal Basic Income, it’s whether technology and automation will be allowed to reduce prices in different sectors.
There is a lot of gobbledy-gook in those two paragraphs. First, the quantitative easing took place during a severe recession. Printing money is a Keynsian method of dealing with recessions. But Yang is proposing printing money in a relatively strong economy.

Second, while he claims that it will all be paid for by a VAT, so that it won't result in a change in the money supply, this ignores the obvious: It will drastically change who has the money (briefly anyway). Obviously more money chasing the same amount of goods is going to be inflationary and he even admits it:

Quote:
It is likely that some companies will increase their prices in response to people having more buying power....
But not to worry, the market will come to the rescue:

Quote:
However, there will still be competition between firms that will keep prices in check.
Which is a very curious argument for a Democrat to be making, since that party does not tend to believe in markets.

He also acknowledges that the VAT will be inflationary:

Quote:
...and a VAT would also increase prices marginally.
By definition a VAT increases prices, as it puts a tax on every stage of the manufacturing process.

And there are numerous side-effects to be considered. For example, affordable housing (a business that I have been involved in for years). Rents in affordable housing projects is commonly required to be set at a certain percentage of median household income for the area. If you give everybody $12,000 more per annum, clearly that is going to change median household income. Which means that residents of affordable housing projects will see a portion of their UBI go to increased rents.
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Old 8th April 2019, 04:10 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The basic premise of society is that everyone who is able to work hard and provide their own basic income, should do so. Those that are not, should get help from those who are. The idea of giving help to those who are able to do the work to provide for themselves, seems perverse to me.
This post seems to me to be concerned more about principles than reality. If* UBI leads to both society as a whole being more productive and less misery for those who can't produce enough for themselves, then the fact that some people who can produce enough for themselves also get it doesn't seem to be a problem.

How is it possible that it could do both of those things? One reason is trying to sort out the difference between those who need help and those who just want help is hard and expensive. There can also be counter-incentives where people are incentivised not to work in order to continue to get support. UBI avoids those problems at the expensive of giving aid to some people who don't need it.

Even when that aid is given to people who don't need it, however, if they use it to invest in their own future productivity, it can still lead to a net gain for society. For a similar theory, see public education, which doesn't require means testing to get.

*This "if" hasn't been established in this thread. If you were to argue that it's not true, that would be entirely legitimate. But this principles based argument doesn't seem to be.
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Old 8th April 2019, 04:13 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Which is a very curious argument for a Democrat to be making, since that party does not tend to believe in markets.
This is an odd comment. Either you think that he's wrong and the market won't work in that way, or you don't. Saying that he shouldn't believe it because he's a democrat is just weird.
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Old 8th April 2019, 04:19 PM   #86
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Perhaps someone can explain to me why proposals for a universal basic income have inflationary impacts greater (or of greater concern) than implementations of wide-spread tax roll-backs?

Of course the targets and goals are distinct and the latter are linked to current income. But doesn't implementing significant tax reductions for a large percent of the population (let's not discuss if that is really what happens) increase the amount of available income and therefore consumer spending in much the same way, presumably pushing up prices and neutralizing much of the hoped for effect on actual living standards?
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Old 8th April 2019, 04:24 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
This post seems to me to be concerned more about principles than reality. If* UBI leads to both society as a whole being more productive and less misery for those who can't produce enough for themselves, then the fact that some people who can produce enough for themselves also get it doesn't seem to be a problem.



How is it possible that it could do both of those things? One reason is trying to sort out the difference between those who need help and those who just want help is hard and expensive. There can also be counter-incentives where people are incentivised not to work in order to continue to get support. UBI avoids those problems at the expensive of giving aid to some people who don't need it.



Even when that aid is given to people who don't need it, however, if they use it to invest in their own future productivity, it can still lead to a net gain for society. For a similar theory, see public education, which doesn't require means testing to get.



*This "if" hasn't been established in this thread. If you were to argue that it's not true, that would be entirely legitimate. But this principles based argument doesn't seem to be.
It's a legitimate principle.

The way I see it, establishing that "if" has to be Job One of anybody proposing a UBI.

Job Two needs to be establishing clear, testable metrics for determining whether that "if" is true in actual practice.

And then Job Three needs to be a rollback plan for the case where the metrics falsify the "if". Since Yang isn't yet doing his job, I see no reason to support his proposal.
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Old 8th April 2019, 04:30 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
This post seems to me to be concerned more about principles than reality. If* UBI leads to both society as a whole being more productive and less misery for those who can't produce enough for themselves, then the fact that some people who can produce enough for themselves also get it doesn't seem to be a problem.

It's very rare that the reality disagrees with the principles.


I can't imagine a scenario where me getting money from someone else would make me more productive. I know that for me, personally, once I have enough money to satisfy my appetites of the moment, I stop working harder. If you send me closer, or over, that goal by generously giving me some of Jeff Bezos' money, I wouldn't need to work harder to get it.


You mentioned public education. Most of that money goes to people who cannot work. (i.e. children. Some people foolishly think it goes to their parents. That's wrong.) Some of it does indeed go to adults, in the form of college assistance. In the not terribly distant past, this sort of aid was given very selectively, to people who were studying worthwhile things, and had the proven ability to benefit from their education, and go on and use it for society's good. This kind of screening was an important feature of the system. Now we have people demanding that everyone get college assistance, guaranteeing an abundance of second rate sociology majors, and some professors and administrators leaching off the system to avoid getting real jobs. I'm not for it.
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Old 8th April 2019, 04:49 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It's very rare that the reality disagrees with the principles.


I can't imagine a scenario where me getting money from someone else would make me more productive. I know that for me, personally, once I have enough money to satisfy my appetites of the moment, I stop working harder.
You do realize that people work full-time (in the US) and yet are unable to pay for basic expenses, right? I don't find it unlikely that people who have trouble paying for hospital visits and dentist fees, while having enough left over for unexpected emergencies, would be more productive without having to worry about having enough money left at the end of the day.
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Old 8th April 2019, 05:15 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I can't imagine a scenario where me getting money from someone else would make me more productive.
I can. There have been multiple moments in my life where I passed on opportunities because I couldn't afford to go without a paycheck.

[ETA] Arcade's point is better than mine.
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Old 8th April 2019, 05:18 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
This is an odd comment. Either you think that he's wrong and the market won't work in that way, or you don't. Saying that he shouldn't believe it because he's a democrat is just weird.
I'm not saying that he shouldn't believe it because he's a Democrat. I am saying that claiming the market will take care of it should not be a compelling argument to other Democrats (the ones Yang hopes will vote for him). Of course I am sure that most of the ones who will vote for him on this issue won't care; the hand-waving is really aimed at the media and people like me who see the inflation problem.
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Old 8th April 2019, 05:23 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You do realize that people work full-time (in the US) and yet are unable to pay for basic expenses, right? I don't find it unlikely that people who have trouble paying for hospital visits and dentist fees, while having enough left over for unexpected emergencies, would be more productive without having to worry about having enough money left at the end of the day.
I don't find it unlikely, either.

But this is an argument for Temporary Income ASSISTANCE (TIA), not UBI.

It also seems to be something that would be relatively easy to test and roll back, if our prediction turns out to be wrong.

If TIA really does make people in a certain situation more productive, to the point where they can fend for themselves and no longer need it, then we should absolutely have a TIA for that purpose. The best part is that we'd be adding more productivity to the pool, which we can tax to replenish the funds invested in the the program.

So I'm no closer to wanting a UBI, but I'm getting more interested in a TIA. How do you feel about a TIA?
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Old 8th April 2019, 05:33 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I can. There have been multiple moments in my life where I passed on opportunities because I couldn't afford to go without a paycheck.

[ETA] Arcade's point is better than mine.
Me too, but if I knew that I would always have a paycheck, no matter what, I would pass on all of the opportunities.
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Old 8th April 2019, 05:35 PM   #94
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There's an aspect of this that people here don't appear to be considering. Jobs are disappearing. Jobs are being made redundant by automation and artificial intelligence, and that trend is only going to increase. UBI provides the solution to that. Those who don't want to work don't need to, leaving more jobs for people who do want to work. And some of the people who don't want to work may spend their time in artistic pursuits, potentially spurring a new cultural renaissance.

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Old 8th April 2019, 07:29 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It's very rare that the reality disagrees with the principles.


I can't imagine a scenario where me getting money from someone else would make me more productive.
Really? We have an entire banking system based on the idea that getting money from someone else can make you more productive. And it has worked incredibly well to multiply the wealth of society.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:37 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There's an aspect of this that people here don't appear to be considering. Jobs are disappearing. Jobs are being made redundant by automation and artificial intelligence, and that trend is only going to increase. UBI provides the solution to that. Those who don't want to work don't need to, leaving more jobs for people who do want to work. And some of the people who don't want to work may spend their time in artistic pursuits, potentially spurring a new cultural renaissance.

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There may come a time when UBI works like that, but in the meantime I see it's interaction with automation as smoothing the transition between jobs. If automation leads to shifts in the workforce, UBI can give people the ability to survive while training for a new career, or the money needed to move from one part of the country where the jobs have been lost to another part of the country where jobs have been created. Without UBI those people might not have the funds to move and instead stay where they are and transfer to less productive and lower paying jobs, for instance.

It can also help people to take advantage of new aspects of the economy and become entrepreneurs. If you are laid-off you can either go look for a new job or perhaps start a small business instead. Having UBI can make that viable when it wouldn't otherwise have been. When I started my business I lived on my savings for the first 2 years before the business was making enough money to actually pay me. If I hadn't had that savings, I couldn't have done it (and would have started the business sooner if I'd had the savings sooner). A small supplement to my income would have made it viable to start the business with a much smaller initial investment (I probably could have cut it in half).
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:39 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Here is a six page thread about the topic and specifically a Swiss initiative (which failed, but more will come in the near future). In it I explain why the U in UBI should stand for "unconditional", not "universal". Been a proponent for twenty years now and glad to see that these days even a candidate for US president runs with it as his main topic (Andrew Yang, although he calls it "Freedom Dividend" or something like this).
I wouldn't be so sure about the highlighted bit. The final vote was 23% for and 77% against (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060). That is quite a hurdle to overcome.

The "giving money to the undeserving" factor outweighs any economic argument by a huge margin. Most people would rather lower their own standard of living than increase somebody else's.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:40 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Really? We have an entire banking system based on the idea that getting money from someone else can make you more productive. And it has worked incredibly well to multiply the wealth of society.
Allow me to clarify, then.

I can't imagine a scenario where getting money from someone else, with no requirement for repayment or service, would make me more productive.



I think the best way to use government money to make people more productive is to provide services that can be used to enhance productivity. For example, building roads and bridges.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:42 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a legitimate principle.
Just to be clear here, I'm saying that if society were more productive in total and also better and protecting it's worst off from misery, it would not be a negative outcome even if some people who don't need help get it.

Do you think the principle that people who don't need help shouldn't be given help is important enough to trump that positive outcome, in the hypothetical that that we actually would get that outcome?

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The way I see it, establishing that "if" has to be Job One of anybody proposing a UBI.
I agree. And I also agree that neither I nor anyone else has done that job yet. So I think that's what we should be discussing, not the idea that people who don't need help shouldn't get it, but maybe that giving help to people who don't need it will make the system less efficient or whatever.

I'm not saying there's no argument here against UBI, I'm just saying we should actually look at the outcomes rather than just UBI is somehow bad in principle.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:43 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Allow me to clarify, then.

I can't imagine a scenario where getting money from someone else, with no requirement for repayment or service, would make me more productive.
Here's one way to test that idea: do people who grow up in rich families end up more productive than people from poor families?
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:43 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There's an aspect of this that people here don't appear to be considering. Jobs are disappearing. Jobs are being made redundant by automation and artificial intelligence, and that trend is only going to increase. UBI provides the solution to that. Those who don't want to work don't need to, leaving more jobs for people who do want to work. And some of the people who don't want to work may spend their time in artistic pursuits, potentially spurring a new cultural renaissance.

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Jobs have been disappearing for at least 150 years now, and we have very close to full employment today.

If we want to encourage artists, couldn't we just use the money to hire artists and/or buy art? Instead of hoping that if we give them money they won't have to work, but will use their time to create art?

ETA: The problem, though, with automation, is that it makes people more productive, which often means using more energy and more raw materials. I like the idea of providing jobs for people doing things that don't consume so many resources or create so much pollution. I just don't think, "Here's a check, do what you want with it" is the right way to go about it. That seems like a good way to get a lot of people to sit around and watch cartoons.

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Old 8th April 2019, 07:50 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I can't imagine a scenario where getting money from someone else, with no requirement for repayment or service, would make me more productive.
Not everybody is as big a slacker as you are. Most would rather have a better standard of living than would be afforded by a UBI and would seek additional sources of income.
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Old 8th April 2019, 07:52 PM   #103
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Well here's the thing. The purpose of UBI is to provide a minimum standard of living. So that if you don't work, you don't starve to death in the streets. If you want to earn more money, you can do that, by whatever means you choose. Sure, some will choose to just live on Basic and watch TV all day. But I think there will be fewer of those than you think. Ask a doctor why they became a doctor. They won't say "to pay the bills", they'll say "because I wanted to help people". That won't change. People will still want to help people, and they will still become doctors.

There's literally no downside to UBI. How do you pay for it? By the complete and utter elimination of all other forms of welfare.
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Old 8th April 2019, 08:10 PM   #104
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If you belief that people won't work if they get an UBI, you don't belief in the market:

if companies don't get an applicant for the money they offer, they have to offer more - simple as that.
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Old 8th April 2019, 08:14 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There's literally no downside to UBI. How do you pay for it? By the complete and utter elimination of all other forms of welfare.
I'd feel more comfortable with UBI if I thought that's what would happen. But it won't. There aren't enough opportunities for graft in a system with a UBI and no other welfare.
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Old 8th April 2019, 09:28 PM   #106
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There's an aspect of this that people here don't appear to be considering. Jobs are disappearing. Jobs are being made redundant by automation and artificial intelligence, and that trend is only going to increase. UBI provides the solution to that. Those who don't want to work don't need to, leaving more jobs for people who do want to work. And some of the people who don't want to work may spend their time in artistic pursuits, potentially spurring a new cultural renaissance.

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I AGREE
I think the day may come in the future when the jobs disappear, but the current reality is that for every job that disappears, more than one new job is created. The government's monthly employment statistics from the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows this. People have been predicting this for years (this youtube video was made almost 5 years ago, and today there are over 10 million more people with jobs in the USA than when the video was published.

The day may come, but it hasn't come yet. (Even if some people are being replaced by robots, yet on net balance more jobs are being created each month than are eliminated.)
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Old 8th April 2019, 09:39 PM   #107
mgidm86
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Cliff's Notes version:

20 years ago or so:

helicopter parenting became a thing.
Play dates, micro-managed lives of children.
How often do you see kids doing chores like cutting the grass or pulling weeds? How often do you see kids outside at all?

"Everyone gets a trophy", everyone is special and a winner.
Kids live at home longer than ever.
Kids are getting drivers licenses later.
"Kids" can be on Mommy's insurance until 25 years old.
Kids want to live at home longer!

At the time, people were calling this the wussification of America.

Now:

Healthy young adults are begging for money in the streets. A guy probably in his 20s a few days ago was covered in tats. I wonder who paid for those? Yet there he was with a sign sitting on the side of the road.

Many of these young street people do not want to work and they admit it.
Socialist ideals are gaining ground.
People want free money (UBI).

Wussification accomplished!

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Old 8th April 2019, 09:51 PM   #108
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I think the day may come in the future when the jobs disappear, but the current reality is that for every job that disappears, more than one new job is created. The government's monthly employment statistics from the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows this. People have been predicting this for years (this youtube video was made almost 5 years ago, and today there are over 10 million more people with jobs in the USA than when the video was published.

The day may come, but it hasn't come yet. (Even if some people are being replaced by robots, yet on net balance more jobs are being created each month than are eliminated.)
Good points.

Someone has to design, repair/maintain, program, deliver, setup all this automated equipment. Perhaps one day the machines can do it themselves, but for now there will be plenty of jobs. Some low skilled, some high skilled.

Like you or someone else said above, this is not a new fear by any means.

I used to work in a diskette duplication company (3.5 inch floppys). There is no such job anymore. I moved on with the times.

More recently I developed games for mobile devices. Smart phones didn't even exist until 2007 when the iPhone was announced.

Same applies to many manual labor jobs I've had. Unemployment is low. Go figure.
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Old 8th April 2019, 09:59 PM   #109
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Good points.

Someone has to design, repair/maintain, program, deliver, setup all this automated equipment. Perhaps one day the machines can do it themselves, but for now there will be plenty of jobs. Some low skilled, some high skilled.

Like you or someone else said above, this is not a new fear by any means.

I used to work in a diskette duplication company (3.5 inch floppys). There is no such job anymore. I moved on with the times.

More recently I developed games for mobile devices. Smart phones didn't even exist until 2007 when the iPhone was announced.

Same applies to many manual labor jobs I've had. Unemployment is low. Go figure.
50 thousand years of human invention and we haven't made one that stopped job creation.
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Old 8th April 2019, 10:00 PM   #110
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Cliff's Notes version:

20 years ago or so:

helicopter parenting became a thing.
Play dates, micro-managed lives of children.
How often do you see kids doing chores like cutting the grass or pulling weeds? How often do you see kids outside at all?

"Everyone gets a trophy", everyone is special and a winner.
Kids live at home longer than ever.
Kids are getting drivers licenses later.
"Kids" can be on Mommy's insurance until 25 years old.
Kids want to live at home longer!

At the time, people were calling this the wussification of America.

Now:

Healthy young adults are begging for money in the streets. A guy probably in his 20s a few days ago was covered in tats. I wonder who paid for those? Yet there he was with a sign sitting on the side of the road.

Many of these young street people do not want to work and they admit it.
Socialist ideals are gaining ground.
People want free money (UBI).

Wussification accomplished!

Unverifiable anecdote is not data.
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Old 8th April 2019, 10:01 PM   #111
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Cliff's Notes version:

20 years ago or so:

helicopter parenting became a thing.
Play dates, micro-managed lives of children.
How often do you see kids doing chores like cutting the grass or pulling weeds? How often do you see kids outside at all?

"Everyone gets a trophy", everyone is special and a winner.
Kids live at home longer than ever.
Kids are getting drivers licenses later.
"Kids" can be on Mommy's insurance until 25 years old.
Kids want to live at home longer!

At the time, people were calling this the wussification of America.

Now:

Healthy young adults are begging for money in the streets. A guy probably in his 20s a few days ago was covered in tats. I wonder who paid for those? Yet there he was with a sign sitting on the side of the road.

Many of these young street people do not want to work and they admit it.
Socialist ideals are gaining ground.
People want free money (UBI).

Wussification accomplished!

Putting on ear protectors just to do a bit of drilling; wearing gloves and masks because "Ewww, I don't want to breathe in the asbestos!" and banning children from the mines. Bloody millenials!
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Old 8th April 2019, 10:11 PM   #112
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Cliff's Notes version:

20 years ago or so:

helicopter parenting became a thing.
Play dates, micro-managed lives of children.
How often do you see kids doing chores like cutting the grass or pulling weeds? How often do you see kids outside at all?

"Everyone gets a trophy", everyone is special and a winner.
Kids live at home longer than ever.
Kids are getting drivers licenses later.
"Kids" can be on Mommy's insurance until 25 years old.
Kids want to live at home longer!

At the time, people were calling this the wussification of America.

Now:

Healthy young adults are begging for money in the streets. A guy probably in his 20s a few days ago was covered in tats. I wonder who paid for those? Yet there he was with a sign sitting on the side of the road.

Many of these young street people do not want to work and they admit it.
Socialist ideals are gaining ground.
People want free money (UBI).

Wussification accomplished!

Have you considered they are victims of the prescribed opiate epidemic?
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Old 8th April 2019, 11:05 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I wouldn't be so sure about the highlighted bit. The final vote was 23% for and 77% against (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060). That is quite a hurdle to overcome.

The "giving money to the undeserving" factor outweighs any economic argument by a huge margin. Most people would rather lower their own standard of living than increase somebody else's.

The world is turning faster and faster.

For those who are interested in the specific model Yang is proposing: https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/
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Old 8th April 2019, 11:23 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you belief that people won't work if they get an UBI, you don't belief in the market:

if companies don't get an applicant for the money they offer, they have to offer more - simple as that.
Just another way that UBI will lead to runaway inflation.
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Old 8th April 2019, 11:55 PM   #115
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just another way that UBI will lead to runaway inflation.
1. you can do ubi without inflation, and higher wages are just the way the market rewards undesirable work.

2. economist are all for continuous, low inflation. And it is the least controversial way to tax wealth.
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Old 8th April 2019, 11:59 PM   #116
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Seems to me that the people who work the ****tiest jobs get paid the lowest wage.
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:02 AM   #117
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Seems to me that the people who work the ****tiest jobs get paid the lowest wage.


that is because they can't refuse. UBI would make it worth your while cleaning up other people's filth.
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:18 AM   #118
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just another way that UBI will lead to runaway inflation.
The stupid - it burns!

UBI is just a redistribution of wealth. It is inflationary only if it is financed by printing money.
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Old 9th April 2019, 01:07 AM   #119
Puppycow
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Elephant in the room:

Would undocumented immigrants and asylum seekers be entitled to this income?
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Old 9th April 2019, 01:55 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Elephant in the room:

Would undocumented immigrants and asylum seekers be entitled to this income?
That's a matter of policy. I personally would only be offering UBI to citizens which would include immigrants who took on citizenship. As for the illegals, that would be a subject for another thread.
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