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#121 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
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This only tells part of the story. Employment growth is not due to technology replacing old jobs with new ones but because of the relentless push to increase the destructive consumption of this planet at ever increasing rates.
It also ignores the replacing of middle class jobs with lower paid part time work and the stagnation of wages. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#122 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
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“Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”-Sen. Lindsey Graham |
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#123 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,220
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A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
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#124 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,965
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Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad |
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#125 |
Rotten to the Core
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,797
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Doa
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All You Need Is Love. |
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#126 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,677
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Most people are bigger slackers than I am. I am just more honest about it.
I work because I have to. I have no choice. Given that I have to spend 40 hours a week doing things I wouldn't do unless you paid me for it, I try and find things that I don't hate doing, and that are the "most productive", i.e. highest paying. However, if you said to me, "Or, you can spend your time however you want, and we'll make sure your basic needs are met." then the first time my boss ticked me off, I would say buzz off and walk out the door. |
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#127 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,677
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Surely that's impossible.
A very small percentage of people are gathering welfare right now. There's a lot of overhead. What shall we say? A factor of 2? A factor of 3? In other words, for every dollar of welfare, there's two that go to the bureaucracy that administers welfare? Ok. So UBI comes in and the overhead goes down, a lot That means we could provide the welfare to 3 times as many people as we do now, right? I don't think that's enough for "universal". We'd pay for it by taking money from the people who choose to work, and giving it to those who choose not to. ETA: Oh, and since everyone gets it, everyone who pays in gets a fraction back. Send in the money. The government gives some of it back to you, and some of it to the guy next door, and keeps some of it, because it's not like there's zero overhead even in the "everyone gets a check" version of the system. |
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#128 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,186
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#129 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,186
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![]() Yes, you don't have to accept below subsistence wages or abusive employers if you have a UBI. That is one of the aims of UBI. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#130 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,655
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Nobody is objecting to that.
The question is, however, could this money be spent in a more direct and thus better way? Instead of giving out handouts to everyone, how about making education more available or even free? UBI is a nice idea, but unless it serves its purposes better than the next alternative it should remain just an idea. It's hell to remove it once it's established as a right you see. McHrozni |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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#131 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17,988
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#132 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,709
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) |
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#133 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,186
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#134 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,861
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#135 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,220
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A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
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#136 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
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Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad |
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#137 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
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Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad |
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#138 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
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That's a very interesting assertion, independent of UBI.
The implication is that we waste non-renewable resources while making people unhappier. What you are saying is that a substantial part of the work-force would be happy to live at or below the poverty line. Why aren't people working part time or retiring left and right? Is there something about the social structure that stops people pursuing happiness? If so then we need to do something about that. Maybe a UBI is not the way to go but how about a 20-hour work-week or 6 months paid vacation. Or retiring at 40? |
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It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler |
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#139 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
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It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler |
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#140 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,142
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*Very slowly* If business people know that everybody is going to suddenly have more money to spend, they will raise prices.
Now someone is going to argue that this isn't technically speaking "inflation" in the literal Economics 101 sense, but the end result is the same. |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#141 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
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It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler |
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#142 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,142
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#143 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,142
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#144 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,186
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#145 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,186
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__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#146 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,142
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This is starting to sound more and more like the argument the hardcore Pirate Bay / File Sharing enthusiasts use just blown up to cover all of society and approached from the other direction.
"Don't you see man, just make all media free and let people share and copy stuff without restriction. That way art, true art, is only going to be made who truly want to make it." It's the same argument. If we "get rid" of the people who only make art to make money, the people left would just happily give it away for free so society will have all the art it needs with none of the cost and this will all magically balance out in the end because reasons. |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#147 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,142
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Okay then you explain to me what economic magic made my rent go up the exact dollar amount my BAH was raised every year for 20 years in the Navy, complete with a letter from my landlord literally saying "Hey we saw your BAH went up so we're raising your rent" in so many words.
Basically "Don't worry about having more money, we can trust businesses to not take advantage of that." |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#148 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,142
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That's my feeling for all the "Oh don't worry, you see this is gonna work because UBI is going to replace this and this and this and that..."
*Laughs* No it goddamn isn't. No government program designed to replace multiple other government programs on this size or scale every accomplished anything but "Okay now we have the new program... and all the old ones." |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#149 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,186
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#150 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 29,965
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True, so there's an initial hike in prices when the system's introduced. If it's done intelligently, this is taken into account in setting the level of UBI so that once it's happened it's still adequate for a basic living. And that's it; there are no further implications, because the system is then up and running. So, although it may well lead to short term inflation, it won't lead to runaway inflation.
True, but it's a very specialised case. BAH rates specify an amount of money that can only be spent on one commodity, so there's an effective price-fixing cartel in operation around that specific commodity. UBI involves giving people money they can spend on anything; and, yes, that'll lead to across-the-board price rises, but as I pointed out long ago upthread, that will impact higher earners more than people living only on UBI, leading to a transfer of spending power from higher to lower earners and not much else. Dave |
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Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel. - Myriad |
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#151 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,656
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No, we do not. We have a banking system based on the idea that borrowing money for some productive scheme, and paying back the loan with interest, will make you more productive.
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But the actual banking scheme we actually have has indeed worked incredibly well to multiply the wealth of society. |
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#152 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,142
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That great because "Oh you're getting the short end of the stick but don't worry... other people aren't" is great because you can just lie and tell everyone that.
I'm seriously amazed that the hippie progressives are advocating a "Just trust business to not take advantage of this, and the invisible hand of the market will take care of it if they do" defense. |
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#153 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,861
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There are a few factors in play here which aren't applicable more broadly. For housing around a military base, both the supply and demand are pretty inelastic: neither changes much in size. Decreasing housing prices won't attract more customers because the size of the military base is fixed by other factors. Increasing the amount of money that military personnel spend won't increase housing supply either, because you won't attract more military personnel to the base because of housing prices. That inelasticity is what leads to a 1-to-1 increase in rents with BAH rates.
But very few goods are anywhere close to that inelastic. And even most housing isn't that inelastic, with most people having much more flexibility about where they choose to live. Rents in some areas might very well go up because of UBI, but they might also drop elsewhere. And it's not even obvious where it will rise and where it will drop. Do you bid up prices in the city because more people can afford to live there? Or do prices drop because people don't need the city jobs and head for cheaper places to live? Overall, if UBI is funded through taxes and not by printing money, I don't think it will have a major effect on inflation. But that doesn't mean it won't have any other serious problems. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#154 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,656
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#155 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#156 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,861
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And... that's one of those big problems with UBI I mentioned in my previous posts. Replacing other forms of welfare with UBI would require a major reduction in government bureaucracy. And that's pretty damned appealing to me. But for the same reason, I don't think it will happen. Those government employees who administer those programs won't just smile and turn in their resignations as those programs unwind. They'll fight tooth and nail to keep the gravy train moving. They will find a reason why UBI alone doesn't suffice.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#157 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,271
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Yes, UBI should remove the need for minimum wage or rent control, which should help ease housing shortages in highly desirable locations.
But what UBI won't undo is differences in living costs by location - in fact, it might make it incredibly attractive to move to places that are great places to live but with little work ... which in turn will help stimulate the local economy, creating new jobs. And it would definitely slow urbanization, something Conservatives should be able to get behind. |
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“Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”-Sen. Lindsey Graham |
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#158 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,861
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One of those high paying ****** jobs that intrigues me is crime scene cleanup. It's actually relatively low skill (you don't need a degree), but it's... unpleasant. A lot of people can't handle it, or aren't willing to do it. And so it has to pay well in order to attract people. You're paying a premium not for skill but for tolerance.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#159 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,861
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#160 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 10,271
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“Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”-Sen. Lindsey Graham |
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