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Old 9th April 2019, 11:14 AM   #1
Cavemonster
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What do MRAs really think

The box office truthers thread has gotten to that weird place where a tangent has been the topic for a while now and half the posters are happy to diverge and half want to stay on the original topic, and the third half don't care.

So for Georgio and any others who want to continue discussion of MRAs, MGTOW, Incels, and TCBY, I humbly suggest this new thread may be the place to do it.
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:16 AM   #2
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I use the label MRA. Feel free to ask any questions or project traditionalist and misogynistic thinking onto me like most anti-MRAs do.

BTW what's a TCBY?
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:19 AM   #3
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The country's best yogurt.
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:30 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I use the label MRA. Feel free to ask any questions or project traditionalist and misogynistic thinking onto me like most anti-MRAs do.
I feel your pain

Quote:
BTW what's a TCBY?
IDK.
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:43 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I feel your pain



IDK.
Seriously, The Country's Best Yogurt. He was making a joke about too many acronyms.
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:44 AM   #6
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Okay, to get the ball rolling, some ways in which society is unfair to men:

"Mansplaining" is just a word used to silence men. Men have just as much right to voice their opinions as anyone else.

Men are often assumed to be sexual predators and not trusted with children.

If I go on Okay Cupid or another dating site, how come I'm expected to pay? Being single doesn't make me rich. Women judge me based on my ability as a provider and not on the content of my character.

After divorce men are often required to support two households on the same income that previously supported only one household. This is fundamentally broken. Rather, communal homes should be sold so that the man is now required to support two lessor households.

Much is made of encouraging women in STEM education, but young men are left adrift and are not encouraged to achieve up to their potential.

Married men can often be heard referring to their wives as “the boss”, but women who refer to their husbands that way are considered oppressed.

Happy wife happy life? Inherently misandrist.

Any of these strike a nerve?
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:50 AM   #7
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I was asked to define some terms by carlitos in the other thread. Here's my attempt:

"Real MRAs" - MRA stands for Men's Rights Activist (or Advocate) and is a perfectly descriptive term. We advocate or engage in activism concerning issues that disproportionately affect men and boys. Examples of these issues are the bias in family courts regarding child custody, domestic violence (here's an interview with an ex policeman detailing how they were told to deal with cases of DV in which he outlines how they were essentially told that even if the man were innocent and even if the man were the victim, they should arrest the man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHGdOjbtaSA ); male circumcision for non medical reasons, bias against boys in the school system and so on.

Pickup artists - These are people who give advice on how to pick up women for casual sex. The one and only reason to associate such people with the men's rights movement is to assume beforehand that that's what the men's rights movement is about (people just wanting an excuse to legitimize treating women like objects).

MGOTW - Stands for 'Men Going Their Own Way'. It is a personal decision not to get involved in relationships with women. That's it, really. You can see how looking at men's rights material might make you weigh up the risks and potential benefits of getting in relationships and make a decision that the risks outweigh the rewards (as I did), and so how MGTOW is related to the men's rights movement, but you can also see how it could have absolutely nothing to do with it. There are quite a few MGTOWs who spout the most insane drivel about women essentially being soulless demons and so on; these people are frequently critiqued by MRAs.

incel - Stands for 'Involuntary Celibate'. The 'philosophy' of this group is extreme and is, in my opinion, indicative of mental illness. These people essentially demand that society adapt to suit them and give them everything they want in terms of sexual and social relationships without them having to contribute anything themselves. They blame their lack of sex and romantic relationships on their looks and society in general. The MRA position on incels tends to be to try and educate them that men have value outside of whether or not they are getting regular sex.

anti-feminists - People who oppose feminist ideology. Given that a huge number of men's issues are a direct result of feminist ideology and its influence on society, it is unsurprising that most MRAs are also antifeminists. In my opinion, if you're an MRA and not an antifeminist then you don't know very much about feminist ideology and imagine that feminism means wanting to treat everybody equally, which it does not. That's egalitarianism.

regular people - Well, you, obviously, Mr Normal
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:51 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Seriously, The Country's Best Yogurt. He was making a joke about too many acronyms.
Ah, fine. I didn't get it as I'm English (I assume that's an American product).
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:52 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I was asked to define some terms by carlitos in the other thread. Here's my attempt:

"Real MRAs" - MRA stands for Men's Rights Activist (or Advocate) and is a perfectly descriptive term. We advocate or engage in activism concerning issues that disproportionately affect men and boys. Examples of these issues are the bias in family courts regarding child custody, domestic violence (here's an interview with an ex policeman detailing how they were told to deal with cases of DV in which he outlines how they were essentially told that even if the man were innocent and even if the man were the victim, they should arrest the man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHGdOjbtaSA ); male circumcision for non medical reasons, bias against boys in the school system and so on.

Pickup artists - These are people who give advice on how to pick up women for casual sex. The one and only reason to associate such people with the men's rights movement is to assume beforehand that that's what the men's rights movement is about (people just wanting an excuse to legitimize treating women like objects).

MGOTW - Stands for 'Men Going Their Own Way'. It is a personal decision not to get involved in relationships with women. That's it, really. You can see how looking at men's rights material might make you weigh up the risks and potential benefits of getting in relationships and make a decision that the risks outweigh the rewards (as I did), and so how MGTOW is related to the men's rights movement, but you can also see how it could have absolutely nothing to do with it. There are quite a few MGTOWs who spout the most insane drivel about women essentially being soulless demons and so on; these people are frequently critiqued by MRAs.

incel - Stands for 'Involuntary Celibate'. The 'philosophy' of this group is extreme and is, in my opinion, indicative of mental illness. These people essentially demand that society adapt to suit them and give them everything they want in terms of sexual and social relationships without them having to contribute anything themselves. They blame their lack of sex and romantic relationships on their looks and society in general. The MRA position on incels tends to be to try and educate them that men have value outside of whether or not they are getting regular sex.

anti-feminists - People who oppose feminist ideology. Given that a huge number of men's issues are a direct result of feminist ideology and its influence on society, it is unsurprising that most MRAs are also antifeminists. In my opinion, if you're an MRA and not an antifeminist then you don't know very much about feminist ideology and imagine that feminism means wanting to treat everybody equally, which it does not. That's egalitarianism.

regular people - Well, you, obviously, Mr Normal
and to add, it is also unsurprising that most anti-feminists are NOT MRAs. Most people, in general, are ignorant (or dismissive) or men's issues.


edit: nvm you got the link

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Old 9th April 2019, 11:59 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
and to add, it is also unsurprising that most anti-feminists are NOT MRAs. Most people, in general, are ignorant (or dismissive) or men's issues.
The way I've heard it put, which I agree with, is that most antifeminists are actually feminists, they just disagree as to where in the world feminism is most needed. They still mistakenly imagine that feminist ideology is egalitarian ideology. It's what Karen Straughan calls 'Coffee Shop Feminism'; where the only experience anyone calling themselves a 'feminist' has of feminism is their own assumption that it's just a load of women saying, 'Let's all just treat everyone the same, amirite?'
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:09 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I was asked to define some terms by carlitos in the other thread. Here's my attempt:

"Real MRAs" - MRA stands for Men's Rights Activist (or Advocate) and is a perfectly descriptive term. We advocate or engage in activism concerning issues that disproportionately affect men and boys. Examples of these issues are the bias in family courts regarding child custody, domestic violence (here's an interview with an ex policeman detailing how they were told to deal with cases of DV in which he outlines how they were essentially told that even if the man were innocent and even if the man were the victim, they should arrest the man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHGdOjbtaSA ); male circumcision for non medical reasons, bias against boys in the school system and so on.
Which are problems created by patriarchy. The patriarchy is bad for everyone
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:13 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Rather, communal homes should be sold so that the man is now required to support two lessor households.
Agree with everything you wrote apart from the above; why should it be assumed that the man will be the one to support financially at all? The fact that it is is the problem: if a man tries to get child support from a woman, he is often laughed out of the family court even if the woman earns much more than he does. It should be done on a case by case basis but there is a grimly comical level of bias in favour of women in the family court system even if it is utterly self evident that the woman is profoundly unfit to look after the child.

Excellent (if absolutely heartbreaking) analysis of one of these cases can be found in Cassie Jaye's documentary 'The Red Pill'.
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:16 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which are problems created by patriarchy. The patriarchy is bad for everyone
That term can mean absolutely anything. It's the feminist equivalent of the conspiracy theorist's 'They'. Please define exactly what you mean by 'patriarchy', who created it and who benefits from it.

What would a societal system that wasn't a patriarchy look like?

EDIT: And what's your point anyway? That all these problems are ultimately men's own fault AKA victim blaming? That's what people normally mean when they chant that 'Patriarchy hurts men too' mantra.
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:24 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
That term can mean absolutely anything. It's the feminist equivalent of the conspiracy theorist's 'They'. Please define exactly what you mean by 'patriarchy', who created it and who benefits from it.

What would a societal system that wasn't a patriarchy look like?

EDIT: And what's your point anyway? That all these problems are ultimately men's own fault AKA victim blaming? That's what people normally mean when they chant that 'Patriarchy hurts men too' mantra.
You assume it was created by a who and that a who benefits. That isn't given.
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You assume it was created by a who and that a who benefits. That isn't given.
Alright then, what is it?
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Alright then, what is it?
The Wikipedia definition is adequate

Quote:
Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property.
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The Wikipedia definition is adequate
Well here in NZ we have a woman Queen, Prime Minister, Governor General, Chief Justice, which are the top jobs.

Does this mean we are living in a horrible matriachy?
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:46 PM   #18
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I know next to nothing about MRAs, but these titles are always sort of funny.

MRA: I guess I am one, since I am for men's rights.
Feminist: I guess I am one, since I am for women's rights.
BLM: I guess I am one, since I think that black lives matter.

But it seems in practice the "Feminist" and "BLM" labels really include a bunch of other stuff and are really sort of just about being haters. It is the same way with MRA?
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:51 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well here in NZ we have a woman Queen, Prime Minister, Governor General, Chief Justice, which are the top jobs.

Does this mean we are living in a horrible matriachy?
Is it a matriarchy? Possibly. We would have to review the other three buckets.

horrible? I said as much in the ardern thread
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Old 9th April 2019, 12:57 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
But it seems in practice the "Feminist" and "BLM" labels really include a bunch of other stuff and are really sort of just about being haters. It is the same way with MRA?
“Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.” - Eric Hoffer

The men's rights movement is still in its infancy, so my sense is that it has less baggage right now. It will likely acquire more over time, as feminism and racial equality already have.
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Old 9th April 2019, 02:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
moral authority, social privilege and control of property.
How do men dominate in terms of moral authority? Repeated 'social experiments' have been done where actors pretended to be couples in a fight; if a woman shouts at, slaps, hits and grabs a man by the throat in public there is, 100% of the time, laughter and smiles from nearly everyone observing, when the same actors reverse the situation, all the man has to do is shove the woman a little bit before a crowd gathers round him, shouting at him and chastising him. How does that fit in with men being in charge of what is morally acceptable?

The MRA position is that women are not seen as having agency in the same way that men are; they are not held accountable for their actions in the same way men are. If feminists are all about dismantling this stuff, why do they support the Duluth Model of domestic violence and protest anyone who wants to set up shelters for male victims of domestic violence and deny that they even exist?

Social privilege - is that the social privilege that forces men to risk their lives and their sanity fighting in wars if they are to be allowed to vote but not women? Is it the social privilege that prompts feminists to hand them white feathers if they don't want to do that? Is it the social privilege that makes 99% of sewage workers men? 94% of workplace deaths? 70% of suicides? 80% of homeless people? The social privilege that creates horrific biases NOT in their favour in the family court system? That social privilege?

Control of property? Not sure what that's got to do with anything, even if it's true. In terms of control of money, however, we must be in some kind of matriarchy as women make 80% of consumer decisions.

EDIT: And it should also be noted that you can't claim nobody benefits if you're simultaneously going to claim that men have social privilege.
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Old 9th April 2019, 02:08 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
“Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.” - Eric Hoffer

The men's rights movement is still in its infancy, so my sense is that it has less baggage right now. It will likely acquire more over time, as feminism and racial equality already have.
MRAs are lucky in that we have so many examples of this corruption happening so we can, hopefully, not be doomed to repeat it. You make a very good point, however, and if the men's rights movement becomes more mainstream we (meaning MRAs, don't know if that's you) will have to be very, very careful that we don't allow it to happen.

This is why I'm pretty obsessive in calling out the signifiers of this kind of thing starting among other MRAs (things like, 'It's different when we do it', 'They started it' etc.) and it sometimes makes me pretty unpopular but it's worth it because the kind of baggage you talk about has to be nipped in the bud.

We're also lucky in that, like the racial equality movement, we have the facts on our side, so we don't need to engage in dirty tactics.
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Old 9th April 2019, 02:16 PM   #23
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What comes to your mind when you think of Boko Haram? Given that it was an incredibly popular twitter hashtag endorsed by thousands of celebrities you could be forgiven for thinking that the worst thing they did was to kidnap girls.

They DID kidnap girls, but they also did something to boys.

Do you know what they did to the boys? And what nobody gave a flying toss about for years until something started happenning to the girls?

But yeah, it's men that have social privilege.

https://www.mediaite.com/online/why-...to-boko-haram/

Quote:
The massacre in February prompted me to ask what the press found lacking in story surrounding Boko Haram’s atrocities that they would not cover it extensively. Was it a geographical bias? Was reporting from Western Africa more difficult than Beslan, Russia? There, hundreds of school children were massacred in 2004, and that event comprehensively covered in the Western press. Maybe there was simply an ethnic bias at play, and American audiences were prejudged to care less about atrocities in Africa than in Europe.

But the events of the last month have demonstrated that none of these explanations were accurate. Apparently, the press simply needed the right reason to cover this terrorist group and their brutal tactics. But an even more disturbing question needs to be asked now: why did the press spring to action when young women were kidnapped, but were virtually unmoved when it was young boys who were being slaughtered and burned alive?
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Old 9th April 2019, 03:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
EDIT: And it should also be noted that you can't claim nobody benefits if you're simultaneously going to claim that men have social privilege.
I didn't say having social privilege.
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Old 9th April 2019, 03:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
How do men dominate in terms of moral authority? Repeated 'social experiments' have been done where actors pretended to be couples in a fight; if a woman shouts at, slaps, hits and grabs a man by the throat in public there is, 100% of the time, laughter and smiles from nearly everyone observing, when the same actors reverse the situation, all the man has to do is shove the woman a little bit before a crowd gathers round him, shouting at him and chastising him. How does that fit in with men being in charge of what is morally acceptable?.
What rules are made is irrelevant. The criteria is positions of moral authority. Most religious leaders (a traditional source of moral authority) are male.


ETA: you discuss a ton of stuff not related to the definition of patriarchy. My opinion is limited to the definition.

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Old 9th April 2019, 03:58 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say having social privilege.
You quoted the wikipedia definition and that said men predominate in, among other things, social privilege.

Quote:
My opinion is limited to the definition
It's called the 'Ministry Of Love', Winston...

If that's all you're interested in discussing then we're not going to get very far. I'm more interested in the reality rather than what some dictionary or other says.

I think you're reaching a bit, frankly. A dictionary definition doesn't trump reality.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:16 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
You quoted the wikipedia definition and that said men predominate in, among other things, social privilege.



It's called the 'Ministry Of Love', Winston...

If that's all you're interested in discussing then we're not going to get very far. I'm more interested in the reality rather than what some dictionary or other says.

I think you're reaching a bit, frankly. A dictionary definition doesn't trump reality.
The fact that the rules emanating out of a system of patriarchy is counterintuitive to men's benefit is irrelevant to if it is patriarchy or not.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:16 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My opinion is limited to the definition.
Hold on, are you actually saying that you don't care what the reality is, you only care what the definition is? That you have been convinced that this thing called patriarchy exists in reality because it has been defined in a dictionary? If you're not interested in what is actually the reality (based on evidence) but also accept the definition as true all the same then that's called being an ideologue, my friend.

And if you don't accept the definition as true then what are we even talking about?
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The fact that the rules emanating out of a system of patriarchy is counterintuitive to men's benefit is irrelevant to if it is patriarchy or not.
OK, so we have a system that requires men to predominate in positions of moral authority and social privilege that doesn't put men in positions of social privilege or moral authority.

Patriarchy's not very good at being patriarchy, is it?
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:23 PM   #30
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
OK, so we have a system that requires men to predominate in positions of moral authority and social privilege that doesn't put men in positions of social privilege or moral authority.

Patriarchy's not very good at being patriarchy, is it?
The criteria for patriarchy is being in those positions. What is done with those positions is irrelevant to the criteria. Here is an analogy. Suppose there is a theocracy ran by priests. But the laws these priests implement are incredibly secular. It is still a theocracy. Theocracy defines the source of the policies, not the policies themselves.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:28 PM   #31
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This is what I meant by 'Patriarchy' being like the conspiracy theorist's 'They'; it can mean anything. If it needs to mean 'men are privileged in society' then it will, if it then needs to mean 'men AREN'T' privileged in society' then it will mean that at the same time.

Patriarchy benefits men over women while hurting everyone equally; it means men are more powerful than women AND it is the explanation as to why they're not (counting all men, not just the powerful ones). It makes men privileged by taking away their privilege.

During my time over at the 9/11 Truth subforum it was a favourite game of the die-hard theorists to invoke any property they needed for a chemical or explosive by saying that it was 'secret' or 'military'; this is exactly the same trick.

It is absolutely classic snake-oil stuff, and the magic cure-all for this cause-all is feminism.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:32 PM   #32
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
This is what I meant by 'Patriarchy' being like the conspiracy theorist's 'They'; it can mean anything. If it needs to mean 'men are privileged in society' then it will, if it then needs to mean 'men AREN'T' privileged in society' then it will mean that at the same time.
Nope. The definition I linked to can't mean anything. It means something specific. And it is completely silent on your criteria here

Quote:
Patriarchy benefits men over women while hurting everyone equally; it means men are more powerful than women AND it is the explanation as to why they're not (counting all men, not just the powerful ones). It makes men privileged by taking away their privilege.
You are the one making up criteria.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:33 PM   #33
Georgio
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The criteria for patriarchy is being in those positions. What is done with those positions is irrelevant to the criteria. Here is an analogy. Suppose there is a theocracy ran by priests. But the laws these priests implement are incredibly secular. It is still a theocracy. Theocracy defines the source of the policies, not the policies themselves.
So patriarchy is quite simply shorthand for 'majority of people in power are men'? It actually has nothing to do with whether men as a group have moral authority, social privilege or anything else in society? That's pretty different to your wikipedia definition, is it not?

Also, you said that the problems I outlined were BECAUSE of patriarchy. How and why do you think this is the case? With your new definition of 'patriarchy' it would seem it is a synonym for 'men'. Do you think men are 'bad for everyone'?

You wouldn't be the first, sadly.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are the one making up criteria.
I am quoting you and your own contradictory definitions.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:36 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Nope. The definition I linked to can't mean anything. It means something specific. And it is completely silent on your criteria here
Are you trolling me? It said one of the criteria was 'social privilege'. Another was 'moral authority'; now we've gone from that to 'most people in positions of power are men, it doesn't matter what they do or say and it doesn't matter if men are or aren't privileged in society'.

The definition you linked to is specific, yes; but the definition you are using does not seem to refer to that linked definition other than with reference to whether the majority of people in powerful positions are male.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
The box office truthers thread has gotten to that weird place where a tangent has been the topic for a while now and half the posters are happy to diverge and half want to stay on the original topic, and the third half don't care.

So for Georgio and any others who want to continue discussion of MRAs, MGTOW, Incels, and TCBY, I humbly suggest this new thread may be the place to do it.
I had to go all the way to post #7 to find out what MRA is. Thanks a lot buddy.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:42 PM   #37
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I am quoting you and your own contradictory definitions.
I provided a single definition from Wikipedia
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:45 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I provided a single definition from Wikipedia
...and a claim that all the issues I outlined in my definition of 'MRA' were caused by it. And several claims that are in complete opposition to that definition: men aren't actually any more privileged in society etc.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:46 PM   #39
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Are you trolling me? It said one of the criteria was 'social privilege'. Another was 'moral authority'; now we've gone from that to 'most people in positions of power are men, it doesn't matter what they do or say and it doesn't matter if men are or aren't privileged in society'.

The definition you linked to is specific, yes; but the definition you are using does not seem to refer to that linked definition other than with reference to whether the majority of people in powerful positions are male.
And positions of moral authority.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:48 PM   #40
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
...and a claim that all the issues I outlined in my definition of 'MRA' were caused by it. And several claims that are in complete opposition to that definition: men aren't actually any more privileged in society etc.
Men do not need to be privileged for men to dominate positions of social privilege.
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