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Old 9th April 2019, 04:49 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And positions of moral authority.
And they only have to be men, yes? It doesn't matter what morals they are advocating? If all the people in power and 'positions of moral authority' were radical feminist men it would still be a patriarchy, yes?
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:50 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Men do not need to be privileged for men to dominate positions of social privilege.
What is a 'position of social privilege'?
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:59 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I had to go all the way to post #7 to find out what MRA is. Thanks a lot buddy.
Actually it's only post 3, and guess who brings it up? That's right - the OP! So much for going off topic

@BobTheCoward

I've got to go to bed now and I'm busy all day tomorrow so apologies for the delay in further responses.
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Old 9th April 2019, 05:00 PM   #44
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Quote:
Social privilege - is that the social privilege that forces men to risk their lives and their sanity fighting in wars if they are to be allowed to vote but not women?

Where is voting tied to fighting in wars?
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Old 9th April 2019, 05:04 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Actually it's only post 3
Are you making a joke? Post #7 is the first one to explain the acronym.
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Old 9th April 2019, 05:06 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
And they only have to be men, yes? It doesn't matter what morals they are advocating? If all the people in power and 'positions of moral authority' were radical feminist men it would still be a patriarchy, yes?
Yes
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Old 9th April 2019, 05:09 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where is voting tied to fighting in wars?
Selective service

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System

EDIT: Actually, I may be wrong about the voting; but you could get five years in prison or a 50,000-250,000 dollar fine for refusing. Still not exactly what I would called 'privileged'.
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Old 9th April 2019, 05:12 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If I go on Okay Cupid or another dating site, how come I'm expected to pay?
Never heard of Craigslist?
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Old 9th April 2019, 05:12 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yes
So how was your claim that all the social problems I outlined were caused by patriarchy not simply saying that all the problems are caused by men and that men are bad for everyone? How was it not victim blaming?

And that is profoundly at odds with your wikipedia definition that you said was 'adequate' before.
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Old 9th April 2019, 05:14 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Are you making a joke? Post #7 is the first one to explain the acronym.
Sorry, you meant this thread, didn't you. I thought you were talking about the 'Box Office Truthers' one.
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Old 9th April 2019, 05:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
So how was your claim that all the social problems I outlined were caused by patriarchy not simply saying that all the problems are caused by men and that men are bad for everyone? How was it not victim blaming?

And that is profoundly at odds with your wikipedia definition that you said was 'adequate' before.


Quote:
Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property.
Nope, nowhere does that say if they implement feminist policies that it isn't a patriarchy. It is silent on agenda.

And I have no compunction against victim blaming.

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Old 9th April 2019, 05:54 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well here in NZ we have a woman Queen, Prime Minister, Governor General, Chief Justice, which are the top jobs.

Does this mean we are living in a horrible matriachy?
Nope, we're doing way better than just a straight out patriarchy, but consider:
  • How many members of Cabinet are male vs female (13-6)
  • How many Government Ministers are male vs female (18-8)
  • How many members of the Government Coalition (excluding the Greens) are male vs female (32-23)
  • How many members of the Government Coalition (including the Greens) are male vs female (34-29)
  • How many members of parliament are male vs female (71-49)
  • How many Acting-Warranted Judges are male vs female (21-5)
  • How many District Court Judges are male vs female (107-52)
  • How many High Court Judges are male vs female (31-15)
  • How many Court of Appeal Judges are male vs female (7-2)
  • How many Supreme Court Judges are male vs female (2-3)
  • How many Police District Commanders are male vs female (8-4)
Should also note here that the Police Commissioner and all four Deputy Commissioners are male, though women do hold 8 of the other 15 positions in the Police Executive.

We certainly could be doing better to make things not so male dominated.
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Old 9th April 2019, 06:05 PM   #53
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People tend to poke fun at prison rape, or that certain inmates deserve such extrajudicial punishment behind bars.
Of course if it was a young female getting raped people would be rightly up in arms about it.
The same isn't the case for young, often weak and not terribly violent male inmates who have to live among experienced lifelong criminals.
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Old 9th April 2019, 06:20 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
People tend to poke fun at prison rape, or that certain inmates deserve such extrajudicial punishment behind bars.
Of course if it was a young female getting raped people would be rightly up in arms about it.
The same isn't the case for young, often weak and not terribly violent male inmates who have to live among experienced lifelong criminals.
The female case is a famous subgenre of porn for heterosexual male consumption.
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Old 9th April 2019, 06:21 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Happy wife happy life? Inherently misandrist.
I'm skeptical of this one. Perhaps you would prefer "happy spouse happy life"? I guess it works the other way around too. If your spouse isn't happy, their unhappiness will probably affect you too. But "wife" rhymes with "life" and "spouse" does not. It sounds like a saying that men say to other men, although I don't recall ever hearing it before now (although I have heard words to the same effect).
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Old 9th April 2019, 06:23 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm skeptical of this one. Perhaps you would prefer "happy spouse happy life"? I guess it works the other way around too. If your spouse isn't happy, their unhappiness will probably affect you too. But "wife" rhymes with "life" and "spouse" does not. It sounds like a saying that men say to other men, although I don't recall ever hearing it before now (although I have heard words to the same effect).
I vote however my wife wants to stay on her good side.
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Old 9th April 2019, 06:43 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
anti-feminists - People who oppose feminist ideology. Given that a huge number of men's issues are a direct result of feminist ideology and its influence on society, it is unsurprising that most MRAs are also antifeminists. In my opinion, if you're an MRA and not an antifeminist then you don't know very much about feminist ideology and imagine that feminism means wanting to treat everybody equally, which it does not. That's egalitarianism.
I think that not all people who call themselves "feminists" hold the same opinions about everything. You may be lumping them all together. Some people who consider themselves feminists do believe in treating everyone equally. Perhaps we should put less importance on the label and look at their actual positions.

Some "feminists" want(ed) to ban porn because they considered it degrading to women. Others are OK with it. Some radical feminists want nothing to do with men (WGTOWs?). Others (probably most) want a relationship with a man, if they are hetero.

What specific feminist positions that are widely held by most feminists would you oppose?
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Old 9th April 2019, 06:46 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I vote however my wife wants to stay on her good side.
Fine with me. It's your vote to do with as you please.
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Old 9th April 2019, 08:10 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where is voting tied to fighting in wars?
In much of the public debate about the 26th amendment, which lowered the voting age from 21 to 18. The argument was that if you can be sent to fight a war, you should be able to vote. That doesn't require the inverse (if you can't get sent to war you can't vote), but it is a connection.
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Old 9th April 2019, 09:16 PM   #60
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What to make of the fact that there seem to be more transgender women than men?

Is that meaningful or meaningless?

The way I see it, each sex has certain advantages and certain disadvantages in modern society. In pre-modern societies for the most part men had it better overall. Many societies like this still exist (Saudi Arabia). There is no society where men are oppressed like women are oppressed in Saudi Arabia. The things MRAs and feminists point to in western societies pale in comparison Saudi's guardianship system. In one case, girls died in a fire because religious police would not allow them to leave a burning building.
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Old 9th April 2019, 09:25 PM   #61
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Leaving the pre-modern societies like Saudi Arabia aside,

In today's western liberal democracies, I'd say that the advantages and disadvantages for each sex are basically a wash. Feminists still point to things like the "wage gap" but I think that has mostly been addressed to the point where the difference than remains is primarily down to different career choices.

There are some natural differences dictated by biology. Both feminists and MRAs should accept the fact that there are some natural biological differences between men and women. Our natural bodies are literally optimized for different social roles.
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:29 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Leaving the pre-modern societies like Saudi Arabia aside,

In today's western liberal democracies, I'd say that the advantages and disadvantages for each sex are basically a wash.
I'd say there's a fair way yet to go. There's also pressure to move the opposite way.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:48 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'd say there's a fair way yet to go. There's also pressure to move the opposite way.
From where?

I haven't seen any apart from freaky bible bashy women and men
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:50 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
From where?

I haven't seen any apart from freaky bible bashy women and men
There's quite a few of those around tho. People of a "conservative" bent tend to want to stick to rigid structures of authority. Women's equality would move people around in this structure, so conservatives tend to not favor it.
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:51 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I was asked to define some terms by carlitos in the other thread. Here's my attempt:

"Real MRAs" - MRA stands for Men's Rights Activist (or Advocate) and is a perfectly descriptive term. We advocate or engage in activism concerning issues that disproportionately affect men and boys. Examples of these issues are the bias in family courts regarding child custody, domestic violence (here's an interview with an ex policeman detailing how they were told to deal with cases of DV in which he outlines how they were essentially told that even if the man were innocent and even if the man were the victim, they should arrest the man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHGdOjbtaSA ); male circumcision for non medical reasons, bias against boys in the school system and so on.

Pickup artists - These are people who give advice on how to pick up women for casual sex. The one and only reason to associate such people with the men's rights movement is to assume beforehand that that's what the men's rights movement is about (people just wanting an excuse to legitimize treating women like objects).

MGOTW - Stands for 'Men Going Their Own Way'. It is a personal decision not to get involved in relationships with women. That's it, really. You can see how looking at men's rights material might make you weigh up the risks and potential benefits of getting in relationships and make a decision that the risks outweigh the rewards (as I did), and so how MGTOW is related to the men's rights movement, but you can also see how it could have absolutely nothing to do with it. There are quite a few MGTOWs who spout the most insane drivel about women essentially being soulless demons and so on; these people are frequently critiqued by MRAs.

incel - Stands for 'Involuntary Celibate'. The 'philosophy' of this group is extreme and is, in my opinion, indicative of mental illness. These people essentially demand that society adapt to suit them and give them everything they want in terms of sexual and social relationships without them having to contribute anything themselves. They blame their lack of sex and romantic relationships on their looks and society in general. The MRA position on incels tends to be to try and educate them that men have value outside of whether or not they are getting regular sex.

anti-feminists - People who oppose feminist ideology. Given that a huge number of men's issues are a direct result of feminist ideology and its influence on society, it is unsurprising that most MRAs are also antifeminists. In my opinion, if you're an MRA and not an antifeminist then you don't know very much about feminist ideology and imagine that feminism means wanting to treat everybody equally, which it does not. That's egalitarianism.

regular people - Well, you, obviously, Mr Normal
The question I have, which I'm not sure can really be answered, is about quantity. Every movement, be it feminism, or political philosophy, animal rights, or whatever, has some element of fringe extremism. The relative proportion of the extremists to the moderates is often important, and how the moderate elements interact with that wing of extremism is often a point of contention.

I would agree with your categorization of the incels as being a den of mental illness and general instability. Much of the violence can often be traced back to these incel communities.

The question becomes of proportions. How much of the greater MRA movement is engaged in the more extreme, toxic behavior? Based on the frequency and abundance of these internet harassment campaigns, and the vibrancy of the communities that spawn them, I'd say a lot. It's impossible to quantify beyond gut instinct, because it's an amorphous, leaderless, and mostly anonymous set of communities. If these groups are smaller than they seem, than they are certainly savvy enough to effectively multiply their impact. It could very well be a case of the tail wagging the dog, which would be very unfortunate for any moderate type MRA's out there.

That's the nature of extremism, it poisons everything. For example, anyone at Charlottesville who opposed the removal of confederate monuments pretty much lost the battle once the neo-nazis started marching and killed a lady. Extremism poisons the well and pretty much guarantees that moderates will not be successful. To be honest, MRA's that want to have success with moderate positions ought to rebrand themselves and draw clear distinctions with the more rabid elements, because any association made will be negative and undercut their cause.
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:56 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The question I have, which I'm not sure can really be answered, is about quantity. Every movement, be it feminism, or political philosophy, animal rights, or whatever, has some element of fringe extremism. The relative proportion of the extremists to the moderates is often important, and how the moderate elements interact with that wing of extremism is often a point of contention.

I would agree with your categorization of the incels as being a den of mental illness and general instability. Much of the violence can often be traced back to these incel communities.

The question becomes of proportions. How much of the greater MRA movement is engaged in the more extreme, toxic behavior? Based on the frequency and abundance of these internet harassment campaigns, and the vibrancy of the communities that spawn them, I'd say a lot. It's impossible to quantify beyond gut instinct, because it's an amorphous, leaderless, and mostly anonymous set of communities. If these groups are smaller than they seem, than they are certainly savvy enough to effectively multiply their impact. It could very well be a case of the tail wagging the dog, which would be very unfortunate for any moderate type MRA's out there.

That's the nature of extremism, it poisons everything. For example, anyone at Charlottesville who opposed the removal of confederate monuments pretty much lost the battle once the neo-nazis started marching and killed a lady. Extremism poisons the well and pretty much guarantees that moderates will not be successful. To be honest, MRA's that want to have success with moderate positions ought to rebrand themselves and draw clear distinctions with the more rabid elements, because any association made will be negative and undercut their cause.
You could even say that it should fall on the MRA community to publicly and loudly disown the extremists every time a man perpetrates a mass shooting, and that they should hold public demonstrations to the same effect. Otherwise it's not unreasonable to take them all for extremists.

Amirite?
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:04 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You could even say that it should fall on the MRA community to publicly and loudly disown the extremists every time a man perpetrates a mass shooting, and that they should hold public demonstrations to the same effect. Otherwise it's not unreasonable to take them all for extremists.

Amirite?
I have mixed feelings about this. For example, I don't really see it as the burden of moderate Muslims to denounce ISIS every time some atrocity occurs, though plenty of people like to tar them with that broad brush. It's probably a good idea to draw clear lines if the goal is to persuade others. I would point out, whether by deliberate action or not, the more extreme groups are usually quite distinct from the moderates in a way that is obvious even to outsiders. One rarely confuses an ultra-orthodox jew with a reformed jew, because the manifestations of divergent views of the world are obvious.

Much of the MRA internet sphere is totally unorganized, so there's no central authority to draw such lines. The few formal organizations that do exist, which would be what is actually necessary to accomplish real legal reform, are small and not powerful. My impression is that the disorganized, chaotic world of the internet is more popular, though these communities aren't really in a position to do much other than share memes and use the internet maliciously against their enemies.

Organization is required for real change, but is also much less fun.
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:35 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You could even say that it should fall on the MRA community to publicly and loudly disown the extremists every time a man perpetrates a mass shooting, and that they should hold public demonstrations to the same effect. Otherwise it's not unreasonable to take them all for extremists.

Amirite?
Which MRA shooters have there been? I mean exactly that: MRA shooters. Not merely anti-feminists, or incels, or anything else. Which have been confirmed MRAs?
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:41 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
After divorce men are often required to support two households on the same income that previously supported only one household. This is fundamentally broken. Rather, communal homes should be sold so that the man is now required to support two lessor households.
For this and disparities in child support and custody battles, google "Father's Rights." It's not that there aren't legitimate issues or people working to address them, it's that they don't see anything to gain by sharing a label with misogynist a-holes.
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:46 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Which MRA shooters have there been? I mean exactly that: MRA shooters. Not merely anti-feminists, or incels, or anything else. Which have been confirmed MRAs?
Those were confirmed MRAs.

Are you saying that there are moderate MRAs and extremist MRAs? Aren't all MRAs the same?
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:08 AM   #71
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Are you trolling me?
Be careful your thread doesn't get "Bobbed". It's happened often enough that there is a name for it.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:12 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Never heard of Craigslist?
I actually meant pay for the date.

I've been married for 20 years so that's not an experience I've had recently, but is a complaint I've heard from MRA/MGTOW types on you tube.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:24 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Those were confirmed MRAs.

Are you saying that there are moderate MRAs and extremist MRAs? Aren't all MRAs the same?
They weren't true MRAs, of course.

No true MRA, of course
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:31 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Okay, to get the ball rolling, some ways in which society is unfair to men:

1. "Mansplaining" is just a word used to silence men. Men have just as much right to voice their opinions as anyone else.

2. Men are often assumed to be sexual predators and not trusted with children.

3. If I go on Okay Cupid or another dating site, how come I'm expected to pay? Being single doesn't make me rich. Women judge me based on my ability as a provider and not on the content of my character.

4. After divorce men are often required to support two households on the same income that previously supported only one household. This is fundamentally broken. Rather, communal homes should be sold so that the man is now required to support two lessor households.

5. Much is made of encouraging women in STEM education, but young men are left adrift and are not encouraged to achieve up to their potential.

6. Married men can often be heard referring to their wives as “the boss”, but women who refer to their husbands that way are considered oppressed.

7. Happy wife happy life? Inherently misandrist.

Any of these strike a nerve?
1. It sometimes is misused, like any term. But it is also a thing.

2. Often? Certainly not in any formal way I would imagine, there is no limit on men being childminders if they have the proper credentials for example

3. Market forces. Generally women don't need to pay for the sites as enough men will pursue them who do pay, or alternatively the sites want more women members to attract the paying men.

4. The divorce system needs significant rejig in a number of areas but you should also remember the majority if not all of these laws were designed by men and largely are adjudicated by men.

5. Again I'm not sure this is the case but one observation I would offer is that in my experience minorities tend to be much better at organising and supporting others. Whereas white men tend to either not give a damn or whine about other people getting help.

6. and 7. I think you should be careful about reading too much into turns of phrase which are not entirely serious.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:56 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Those were confirmed MRAs.

Are you saying that there are moderate MRAs and extremist MRAs? Aren't all MRAs the same?
WHO?
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
They weren't true MRAs, of course.

No true MRA, of course
WHICH shooters? No one has even been named.

Also, of course there are moderates and extremists. Not all people under a label are the same. Duh.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:32 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I actually meant pay for the date.

I've been married for 20 years so that's not an experience I've had recently, but is a complaint I've heard from MRA/MGTOW types on you tube.
What's the complaint, exactly? That the dating sites are hooking them up with women who expect traditional gender roles, including the guy paying? Isn't that the dating site working as intended?

Personally I'd take it as a bad sign if your date (of either gender) doesn't at least offer to split the tab. But then I see relationships as ultimately rooted in a friendship between equals, not the weird power trip vibes I get from the MRA crowd.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:46 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
What's the complaint, exactly? That the dating sites are hooking them up with women who expect traditional gender roles, including the guy paying? Isn't that the dating site working as intended?

Personally I'd take it as a bad sign if your date (of either gender) doesn't at least offer to split the tab. But then I see relationships as ultimately rooted in a friendship between equals, not the weird power trip vibes I get from the MRA crowd.
Old cultural norms die hard. I used OKCupid back when I was single, and lived in the US South where it is still common for men to pay for dates. Even then, it was very common for girls I took out on dates to offer to split the bill. Some didn't. There are also men who would insist on paying for everything. Part of dating is finding someone who shares these worldviews.

I've always personally felt splitting the bill was tacky. If there were any following dates, often whatever girl I was seeing would offer to take me out and cover it. In cases where there were no following dates (which happened plenty), I ate the loss. I didn't plan expensive first dates and this imbalance was so trivial to not be worth considering.

If insignificant interpersonal norms are the worse problem we have to solve, we are surely living in a Utopia. I can't take anyone seriously if the point to women not offering to split the bill as evidence of some great gender injustice.
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:18 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
In my opinion, if you're an MRA and not an antifeminist then you don't know very much about feminist ideology and imagine that feminism means wanting to treat everybody equally, which it does not. That's egalitarianism.
Well, thing is, plenty of people who consider themselves feminists are also egalitarians. It's the radical ones that are a problem, because most don't tend to distinguish the two and assume that, if you're against the latter you're against the former.
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:20 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where is voting tied to fighting in wars?
Heinlein's Starship Troopers. I don't know of any non-fictional place where this is true.
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:23 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I've always personally felt splitting the bill was tacky. If there were any following dates, often whatever girl I was seeing would offer to take me out and cover it.
Sure, that'd be fine. But these days it's also tacky to not even offer. Like that scene in Jurassic Park where Newman gets the corporate guy to buy his lunch.
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