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Old 10th April 2019, 08:48 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Control of property? Not sure what that's got to do with anything, even if it's true. In terms of control of money, however, we must be in some kind of matriarchy as women make 80% of consumer decisions.
You have a source for that?
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:53 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
You quoted the wikipedia definition and that said men predominate in, among other things, social privilege.
Yeah but "he" didn't say it, see?

You're wasting your time with this one.
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:55 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
We certainly could be doing better to make things not so male dominated.
Whether or not this is true depends on why these things so male-dominated.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:33 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You have a source for that?
Probably not the same source, and possibly biased, but essentially consistent with that claim:
https://girlpowermarketing.com/stati...g-power-women/

I wouldn't take their exact numbers as gospel, but it's clear that women have a lot of financial power in the US.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:41 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You have a source for that?
Ditto. Any source for "Women make 80% of consumer decisions" would be welcome.

Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I was asked to define some terms by carlitos in the other thread. Here's my attempt:
Thank you so much. I want to come back to this when I have more time, but just a quick one. In the other thread you self-identified as MGOTW, and in this thread, you referred to yourself as part of MRA ("we" do this or that). So there is definitely overlap. In the other thread, you that "they" (incels and MGOTW) were not MRAs (correct me if I'm wrong here).

This seems pedantic, but I'm only asking for clarity because you were asking folks not to lump one group into another, but I think that you may have variously counted yourself as 3 out of the ones I listed.

We really need a Venn diagram.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:45 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Probably not the same source, and possibly biased, but essentially consistent with that claim:
https://girlpowermarketing.com/stati...g-power-women/

I wouldn't take their exact numbers as gospel, but it's clear that women have a lot of financial power in the US.
Oh, absolutely. But 80% sounds a tad high.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:53 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, absolutely. But 80% sounds a tad high.
Advertisers spend a relative fortune targeting men 25-54 due to their purchasing power. Those stats on the girl power marketing web site are cherry picked and not reflective of reality in total.
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Old 10th April 2019, 11:00 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, absolutely. But 80% sounds a tad high.
Sounds low for my household, though I cannot claim to be representative. But the significance of the statistic, whatever its true value, is complicated by the fact that who makes a given purchasing decision isn't just about power, it's also about division of labor. I don't feel disempowered because my wife does most of the grocery shopping.
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Old 10th April 2019, 11:03 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Advertisers spend a relative fortune targeting men 25-54 due to their purchasing power. Those stats on the girl power marketing web site are cherry picked and not reflective of reality in total.
Sure, they're likely cherry picked. But what statistics do reflect reality in total? And what is that reality? Is it a patriarchy?
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Old 10th April 2019, 11:08 AM   #90
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Just a note on selective service.

While serving in wartime is certainly a burden, excluding certain groups from combat service was not seen as a privilege of those excluded groups. These groups are excluded because they are seen as generally unfit for the rigors of combat. Women had been historically excluded from the draft because women were thought to be unable or unworthy of such service, much the same way that black troops were often directed into support roles.

While avoiding the draft may be a positive outcome in the eyes of some individuals, the motivation for excluding them is not out of kind consideration. Being gay might have been a "get out of wartime service free" card, but that doesn't mean the anti-gay animus was a positive in the general sense.

The complaints about women in the draft are largely academic, as the draft hasn't been instituted since the Vietnam era and is very unlikely to ever occur again. Modern armies are composed of volunteer troops.
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Old 10th April 2019, 12:19 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, absolutely. But 80% sounds a tad high.

What exactly constitutes one consumer decision?

A guy will just buy the same shampoo four times in a row. If that counts as one decision, while his mate picking out four different ones over the same time period is four decisions, she's made 80% of the decisions.

If every grocery-store item purchased constitutes one consumer decision, that will represent most of the consumer decisions ever made. So the 80% statistic would just mean women do about 80% of the grocery shopping.
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Old 10th April 2019, 12:26 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sounds low for my household, though I cannot claim to be representative. But the significance of the statistic, whatever its true value, is complicated by the fact that who makes a given purchasing decision isn't just about power, it's also about division of labor. I don't feel disempowered because my wife does most of the grocery shopping.
I'd think the value of the purchases should count. My mom did way more than 80% of all the purchasing, but that was only small stuff. My dad handled the big purchases like houses, cars, education, etc.
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Old 10th April 2019, 12:33 PM   #93
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I'm probably a weird household, but I do most of the grocerys, because the missus can't stand the stores, but she tells me what we need to buy so she makes all the decisions when it comes to household products. I just have a list.

Except for meat as I do most of the cooking, as I enjoy it, so I decide all that.
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Old 10th April 2019, 12:38 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'd think the value of the purchases should count.
Sure. And ideally, each purchase shouldn't be assigned wholly to one person or the other, but would reflect the fraction each person contributed to the decision. But we don't have all the data we would like, and even if we did, interpreting it wouldn't be unambiguous. For example, if you defer to your partner's decision on something because they care about it and you don't, does that reflect a power disparity? And how would an external observer be able to tell?
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Old 10th April 2019, 12:54 PM   #95
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Just look at the girl power site. Women buy 91% of houses, 65% of cars, 66% of computers. It's a wonder that there are any TV ads on sporting events; Bud Light and Ford should just advertise on the Hallmark Channel.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:00 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
WHO?


WHICH shooters? No one has even been named.

Also, of course there are moderates and extremists. Not all people under a label are the same. Duh.
He's probably thinking Elliot Rodger. On another thread it was pointed out that Rodger wasn't an MRA and that appears to be true.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:18 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
What to make of the fact that there seem to be more transgender women than men?

Is that meaningful or meaningless?
While we don't have any way of getting great numbers, this attempt at parsing available data suggests the opposite is true:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/u...opulation.html

Quote:
Of the 135,367 likely transgender people who changed their names with the Social Security Administration, 65 percent were transgender men and 35 percent were transgender women.
And the meshes well with my personal experience. I have a few relatively close friends and social contacts who are trans men and I've met a good number more. I've met far fewer trans women.

What's meaningful is why people talk more about trans women and notice them more and perceive, as you do that there are more of them out there. I think that speaks a lot to gender roles and what is considered a transgression of them and when people find that threatening enough to take notice.

That's its own complex subject, and you can probably spin a lot of facets of it different ways. Clothes, bodies, names, roles, bathrooms, sports, physical threats, gay panic. There's a lot in there.

People with identifiably male bodies wearing women's clothing is considered absurd and emasculating or transgressive. To do so is to create social tension. It's part why those bits of Monty Python were considered funny. People with identifiably female bodies wearing men's clothing hasn't been considered so transgressive for a long time. Now you might spin that to say that women in our society are allowed more freedom of dress than men, and you'd be right. You might also say that traditionally men's clothing is considered practical and traditionally women's clothing is considered frivolous so the idea of males being degraded by stepping into female clothing shows a societal contempt for the female.

We could do this all day. Look at all the talk about bathroom laws. The very existence of trans men was ignored in a really weird way by all the people insisting that allowing trans people to use the bathroom they identified with would open the door to abuse by perverts and rapists. That position looks kind of absurd when you realize that forcing trans men to use women's bathrooms means that people who look and dress like men would be forced to use ladies facilities. Meaning that perverts and rapists wouldn't even need to dress up to sneak in. They only get to that absurdity by ignoring that trans men exist.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:48 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
He's probably thinking Elliot Rodger. On another thread it was pointed out that Rodger wasn't an MRA and that appears to be true.
It is true. Not one single, solitary piece of evidence has ever, ever, ever, ever been put forward to link Rodger with one single MRA site, talking point or group. Ever. Not one. EVER.

No post by Rodger has ever mentioned a single men's rights talking point, no site he visited ever spoke about any of them. He was an incel; he saw sex with women as the be all and end all of a man's worth - this is in ABSOLUTE opposition to what men's rights groups say.

An MRA youtuber called bane666au painstakingly went through every single one of Rodger's liked facebook groups and the only political ones were news channels and, hilariously, The Young Turks - so that means that The Young Turks have to answer for what Rodger did, yes? No, thought not.

This does not even reach the level of guilt by association. There is nothing to associate Rodger with MRA groups; it is guilt by assumed association.

The same thing is still being done in this thread by various people. Here is the drill:

1. Assume the nature of the men's rights movement as misogynist, traditionalist and male supremacist

2. Find people who are misogynist, traditionalist and male supremacist

3. Assume those people must be MRAs because 1.

4. Blame everyone else for your intellectual laziness, assumption and conflation as if it is their responsibility to make up for the fact that you refuse to research these groups yourself.

5. Call 'No True Scotsman' although the one and only reason these groups have been lumped together in your mind is because of 1, and 1 is an absolute assumption based on absolutely nothing.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:48 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
..........
Look at all the talk about bathroom laws. The very existence of trans men was ignored in a really weird way by all the people insisting that allowing trans people to use the bathroom they identified with would open the door to abuse by perverts and rapists. That position looks kind of absurd when you realize that forcing trans men to use women's bathrooms means that people who look and dress like men would be forced to use ladies facilities. Meaning that perverts and rapists wouldn't even need to dress up to sneak in. They only get to that absurdity by ignoring that trans men exist.
Until I read the above, I hadn't realized which direction the "trans" went. I would guess that people freaking out about bathrooms either hadn't thought it through logically, or maybe they had it backwards, thinking that men dressing up as women were "trans men" trying to use the ladies room. Honestly, that's what I would have said if you would have asked me 5 minutes ago. That's what a "transvestite" was, a man in a dress.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:49 PM   #100
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From various people's posts, am I to understand that BobTheCoward is indeed a troll?
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:53 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Until I read the above, I hadn't realized which direction the "trans" went. I would guess that people freaking out about bathrooms either hadn't thought it through logically, or maybe they had it backwards, thinking that men dressing up as women were "trans men" trying to use the ladies room. Honestly, that's what I would have said if you would have asked me 5 minutes ago. That's what a "transvestite" was, a man in a dress.
Think about it this way. Trans people would like to be thought of as the gender they live as. So trans men are men who were assigned female at birth.

People who transitioned TO female wouldn't want to be called trans men because they don't want to be called men at all.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:56 PM   #102
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Sure, that seems obvious now.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:02 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
From various people's posts, am I to understand that BobTheCoward is indeed a troll?
It is generally frowned on by mods to explicitly call people trolls even when it's obvious (like The Big Dog, who we can now openly call a troll because he closed his account).

That's its own whole thing.

It's also frowned on to talk much at all about specific posters. Seen as personalizing instead of addressing the argument.

But I've come to care a bit less if I stay or go so...

Yeah, bob is more or less a troll but a less malicious one then most. He mostly just tries randomly to poke logical holes in common sense. He might see himself as a Socratesesque gadfly or he may just be amusing himself. But he can safely be ignored most of the time without missing anything of value.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:11 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
So how was your claim that all the social problems I outlined were caused by patriarchy not simply saying that all the problems are caused by men and that men are bad for everyone? How was it not victim blaming?

And that is profoundly at odds with your wikipedia definition that you said was 'adequate' before.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Nope, nowhere does that say if they implement feminist policies that it isn't a patriarchy. It is silent on agenda.

And I have no compunction against victim blaming.
I await your follow up.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:16 PM   #105
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@Cavemonster
Yep, that's what I started to think when I got the 'I didn't say that' after he gave a definition as adequate to describe what he thought; typical six year old stuff - like walking up to the edge of the bed when you say 'Go to bed'.

There was a character in an English comic called 'Mr. Logic' that satirised this sort of thing very well.

@BobTheCoward

Await away
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:38 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
While we don't have any way of getting great numbers, this attempt at parsing available data suggests the opposite is true:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/u...opulation.html


...

What's meaningful is why people talk more about trans women and notice them more and perceive, as you do that there are more of them out there. I think that speaks a lot to gender roles and what is considered a transgression of them and when people find that threatening enough to take notice.
.....
Exactly. There are not areas where trans-men will be a threat to a man on any reasonable scale. On the opposite hand that is not true. Women have a lot of protections that our culture and society have afforded them due to their gender. We have done this for equality reasons, we have done this for biological reasons, but it has been done. That is why it is threatening enough to take notice when you have other people trying to get into the group.
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:16 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Probably not the same source, and possibly biased, but essentially consistent with that claim:
https://girlpowermarketing.com/stati...g-power-women/

I wouldn't take their exact numbers as gospel, but it's clear that women have a lot of financial power in the US.
I don't take that link seriously whatsoever. I don't think the claim is necessarily outlandish, but that's not even low-quality evidence backing it. It's not evidence at all.
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:31 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
Exactly. There are not areas where trans-men will be a threat to a man on any reasonable scale. On the opposite hand that is not true. Women have a lot of protections that our culture and society have afforded them due to their gender. We have done this for equality reasons, we have done this for biological reasons, but it has been done. That is why it is threatening enough to take notice when you have other people trying to get into the group.
IMO it's mostly just anti-male paranoia.
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:51 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
While we don't have any way of getting great numbers, this attempt at parsing available data suggests the opposite is true:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/u...opulation.html



And the meshes well with my personal experience. I have a few relatively close friends and social contacts who are trans men and I've met a good number more. I've met far fewer trans women.

What's meaningful is why people talk more about trans women and notice them more and perceive, as you do that there are more of them out there. I think that speaks a lot to gender roles and what is considered a transgression of them and when people find that threatening enough to take notice.

That's its own complex subject, and you can probably spin a lot of facets of it different ways. Clothes, bodies, names, roles, bathrooms, sports, physical threats, gay panic. There's a lot in there.

People with identifiably male bodies wearing women's clothing is considered absurd and emasculating or transgressive. To do so is to create social tension. It's part why those bits of Monty Python were considered funny. People with identifiably female bodies wearing men's clothing hasn't been considered so transgressive for a long time. Now you might spin that to say that women in our society are allowed more freedom of dress than men, and you'd be right. You might also say that traditionally men's clothing is considered practical and traditionally women's clothing is considered frivolous so the idea of males being degraded by stepping into female clothing shows a societal contempt for the female.

We could do this all day. Look at all the talk about bathroom laws. The very existence of trans men was ignored in a really weird way by all the people insisting that allowing trans people to use the bathroom they identified with would open the door to abuse by perverts and rapists. That position looks kind of absurd when you realize that forcing trans men to use women's bathrooms means that people who look and dress like men would be forced to use ladies facilities. Meaning that perverts and rapists wouldn't even need to dress up to sneak in. They only get to that absurdity by ignoring that trans men exist.
I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that there are more trans women than trans men. Here's what I could find to back that up:

http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=lib-trans-count

Quote:
Worldwide estimates for transwomen are 1 in every 30,000 people. Transmen are estimated at 1 in every 100,000 people. (1, 2)
Only estimates of course, which could be wrong, but these would imply about three times as many trans women as trans men.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:00 PM   #110
Georgio
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post


Thank you so much. I want to come back to this when I have more time, but just a quick one. In the other thread you self-identified as MGOTW, and in this thread, you referred to yourself as part of MRA ("we" do this or that). So there is definitely overlap. In the other thread, you that "they" (incels and MGOTW) were not MRAs (correct me if I'm wrong here).

This seems pedantic, but I'm only asking for clarity because you were asking folks not to lump one group into another, but I think that you may have variously counted yourself as 3 out of the ones I listed.

We really need a Venn diagram.
The 'take home message' is that being one does not mean you are automatically another.

MRA - advocates and/or does activism based on addressing societal prejudices/issues that affect men and boys

MGTOW - Makes a conscious decision not to get into relationships with women, quite possibly due to the issues discussed by MRAs (I gather, but don't know for sure, that a huge majority of MGTOWs are men that have been through divorces and child custody cases and have been driven to the point of suicide due to the horrific biases against them) but equally possibly due to something else, including psychosis.

incel - Involuntary Celibate. Keyword = 'Involuntary'. Rightly or wrongly they see themselves as having no choice but to not be involved sexually or romantically. In my opinion these are extremely weak people who are lashing out at a society that has consistently told them that, as men, they are worthless if they are not in a sexual or romantic relationship. When Karen Straughan was asked what she would have said to Alec Minassian, she replied that she wished he had watched her videos where she shows all the ways in which men are valuable other than being sexually active or involved in relationships. Any MRA worth their salt will do their best to talk a man out of defining himself by his sex life, and this is a central tenet of 'inceldom'.

So we can see how these groups overlap but also how being a member of one does net require being a member of the other.

That being said, you can't be a MGTOW and an Incel; MGTOW is by definition voluntary. I can't understand how you can be an MRA and an incel because incels have accepted the idea that men's worth is defined by their sexual prowess, which is something MRAs constantly battle against.

Maybe I shouldn't have called myself a MGTOW as I never read any MGTOW material online because I can't see the point; I've made my decision based on weighing up the risks and rewards of getting involved with women and decided the rewards are not worth the risks. What else is there to talk about? The only reason, in my opinion, MGTOW needs to be anything like a 'movement' is to tell men that if they have come to a similar decision and they know it's the correct decision for them then they have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of and are not lesser human beings as a result.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:03 PM   #111
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FULL DISCLOSURE: The only source I have for the 'Women make up 80% of consumer decisions' is that exact quote from an interview with Jordan Peterson. I should have said something like, 'If Jordan Peterson is correct then women make 80% of consumer decisions'.

Apologies - I've been chastising people for quoting stuff without having researched it themselves and now I've done the same thing.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:22 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that there are more trans women than trans men. Here's what I could find to back that up:

http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=lib-trans-count



Only estimates of course, which could be wrong, but these would imply about three times as many trans women as trans men.
Those aren't great sources. It purports to be worldwide numbers but in the link doesn't say anything about methodology and the footnotes link to an APA report and a report on Belgian populations. They could in turn reference yet another study but the fact that the page didn't get at least that close to the actual source of the numbers increases the grain of salt I take the estimate with.

They're also reports that are a decade old that might for all I know draw those estimates from studies even older. Given the recency of trans acceptance, more than a decade old numbers are less than great.

And finally, worldwide numbers will likely be skewed by cultural trends which weigh heavily on a small sample size. Trans women in some Southeast Asian countries can be seen and counted in a way that stacks the worldwide numbers of a tiny group.

I'm not saying my source is perfect. Being based on US numbers means it doesn't tell us much about the world at large, but given all the reasons above, I trust that estimate if comparative prevalence better.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:29 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post

5. Call 'No True Scotsman' although the one and only reason these groups have been lumped together in your mind is because of 1, and 1 is an absolute assumption based on absolutely nothing.
As far as I can tell the reason these groups have been lumped together is due to "The Manoshpere" label, nothing more. I was reading something, somewhere that said these groups don't even get along with one another.

I think we can safely assume that MRA and MGTOW are relatively new phenomenons, But the incel thing ? That's had to exist since the dawn of time. It's only now, with the advent of social media that these guys can come together in numbers and journalists have had access to their conversations.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:53 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
As far as I can tell the reason these groups have been lumped together is due to "The Manoshpere" label, nothing more. I was reading something, somewhere that said these groups don't even get along with one another.
The Judean People's Front doesn't get along with The People's Front of Judea but they seem to have a lot in common.

Fictional groups aside, Sunnis and Shia kill each other over actual differences that have been considered more or less aesthetic in certain contexts in the past. Almost every division in Christianity was cleaved in blood and violence, but if I identify them all as Christians, you probably won't say I'm wrong for grouping them together just because some dislike each other.

In the case of "the manosphere" one of the reasons for angst and conflict between groups is that members of any one are likely to be ex adherents to at least one of the others and have the disdain for their old view that's common in passionate converts. But the bigger picture is that the way people move between these groups is a sign of how they're intertwined.



Quote:
I think we can safely assume that MRA and MGTOW are relatively new phenomenons, But the incel thing ? That's had to exist since the dawn of time. It's only now, with the advent of social media that these guys can come together in numbers and journalists have had access to their conversations.
Individuals angry at the world that they can't get laid have been around forever, but incels are a particular culture formed pretty recently. The term, the language the group uses, the way they interact and frame the causes of their distress have all come together fairly recently through online discussion groups.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:45 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Fictional groups aside, Sunnis and Shia kill each other over actual differences that have been considered more or less aesthetic in certain contexts in the past. Almost every division in Christianity was cleaved in blood and violence, but if I identify them all as Christians, you probably won't say I'm wrong for grouping them together just because some dislike each other.

In the case of "the manosphere" one of the reasons for angst and conflict between groups is that members of any one are likely to be ex adherents to at least one of the others and have the disdain for their old view that's common in passionate converts. But the bigger picture is that the way people move between these groups is a sign of how they're intertwined.
I propose religious people, rather than Christians as a more accurate comparison. All religious people believe that there's some invisible dude in the sky that they need to be afraid of but disagree vehemently on what skydaddy wants them to do and think to earn his favour.

There may be some overlap, I don't know, that would require more study than I'm willing to do but, for instance I could see an incel drifting over to the PUA guys and then rejecting that community when he finds out that those techniques don't work.

MRAs OTOH appear a lot more focused on issues that affect men's quality of life. I can't see a problem with that.
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:09 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I propose religious people, rather than Christians as a more accurate comparison. All religious people believe that there's some invisible dude in the sky that they need to be afraid of but disagree vehemently on what skydaddy wants them to do and think to earn his favour.

There may be some overlap, I don't know, that would require more study than I'm willing to do but, for instance I could see an incel drifting over to the PUA guys and then rejecting that community when he finds out that those techniques don't work.

MRAs OTOH appear a lot more focused on issues that affect men's quality of life. I can't see a problem with that.
In theory, that's noble. But in theory, Christianity is about loving your neighbor, but then we get an inquisition. The states goals are good and of course there are issues that men face that need to be addressed.

Any group has some variation, and maybe some people who self describe as MRAs are fairly healthy.

I think the missing link between all of these groups is the one group that I don't think has been talked about as much here, The Red Pill. Incels, PUAs MRAs and MGTOW commonly widely embrace at least some of the central ideas of TRP. They largely seem happy with terms like "hypergamy" "sexual dimorphism" "alpha". They all see feminism as a force which has intruded on the natural order of sexual relations which is getting in the way of the happiness they deserve.

They vary in what they think they can do with this framework from their position, but they all share at least some decent chunks of that TRP framework. Even if they have rejected the TRP community.

These are of course broad strokes.
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Old 10th April 2019, 08:33 PM   #117
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I don't think the inquisition came along at a time in history when love thy neighbour was much of a thing. At that time everybody was supposed to be scared witless at the power of the church and wanted to curry favour with the church and if that involved turning in that weird neighbour, well so be it.

I do see where you're going with this though and it makes sense if all the groups agree that they share a common goal. I suppose it could be argued that PUAs are just trying to improve their quality of life, like I said above but it's not an argument I'd make in defense of these guys given my limited exposure to them.

I never got that whole red pill thing, guess I'll have to go read a little. But that natural order, that was pretty much rape, wasn't it ?

Broad strokes are fine
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:01 PM   #118
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The Red Pill refers to a few different things. It's a generic "waking up to reality" expression use by groups in the manosphere (especially PUAs, who make up the r/redpill (name?) subreddit) to even more extreme groups such as many conspiracy theorists. Of course, "black pill" is even further down the rabbit hole, supposedly. I think any uses of them sounds pretty conspiracy-minded but I see it used more and more in less niche circles. It's a bit like "woke" but used by exact-opposites in terms of politics/beliefs. ("woke" is more of a slur against leftist/sjw type thinking)

The Red Pill movie is referring to the first definition (not the PUAs) as it is a movie about the MRM. I don't know what "The Red Pill" ideology could possibly be referring to other than the PUAs who use the label as their namesake (on reddit). Is it a generic term for "manosphere" ? (@cavemonster - I think I mostly follow what you're saying now that I've reread)

Quote:
They largely seem happy with terms like "hypergamy" "sexual dimorphism" "alpha".
I think the first 2 are fairly basic truths about our world. Men and women are different, and we've evolved different mating strategies - men want paternal certainty and women want providers (hypergamy).

I think "alpha" also applies, but I rarely use the term myself as I'm not constantly looking at the world in terms of winners and losers, alphas and betas.
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Old 10th April 2019, 11:07 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
The Red Pill refers to a few different things. It's a generic "waking up to reality" expression use by groups in the manosphere (especially PUAs, who make up the r/redpill (name?) subreddit) to even more extreme groups such as many conspiracy theorists.
First of all, hi, I self-identify as a feminist and I think you're cool. Back when I first learned you thought of yourself as a MRA, I started kind of watching you, and saw that not all MRAs are evil creeps. Just most of them on social media who reach out to feminists for "dialogue". There are lots, and lots, and lots, of incredibly toxic self-identifying feminists out there, as well. I stay the hell away from online feminist social circles for the most part. As with all things, MRAs and feminists both need to get tf out of their echo chambers and interact with ideological diversity at places like here more, I think.

Anyway, the redpill reddit boards, WOW. "marriedredpill" is...dark stuff. I lurk there, because it's like a horror movie, and I love horror. I like to tell myself that it can't be real, and these people must be BSing themselves and everyone else. Maybe they're basement dwellers, living out an elaborate fantasy life. But I really don't know. That is some freaky stuff, though.
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Old 10th April 2019, 11:16 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I think the first 2 are fairly basic truths about our world. Men and women are different, and we've evolved different mating strategies - men want paternal certainty and women want providers (hypergamy).
Sexual dimorphism is a fact of nature beyond dispute, but the "truth"/reality and evidence is a little trickier on the other one, as far as I can tell.

For example:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...4D169DCE447D6C

Quote:
HIGHER MALE EDUCATIONAL HYPERGAMY: EVIDENCE FROM PORTUGAL
Quote:
Studies of human mate choice have been based almost exclusively on stated preferences and personal advertisements, and the external validity of such studies has therefore been questioned. In the present study, reallife matings based on a large representative sample of newly wed couples in 1998 (n=66,598) were analysed according to educational assortative mating. The results demonstrate a strong educational homogamy in this national Portuguese sample. However, men tend to marry women who are slightly more educated than themselves. The results are compared with those of a modern society (US, 1940–87) and a traditional society (Kipsigis, 1952–91). Since educational attainment is strongly associated with social status and intelligence, these results are discussed in an evolutionary perspective.
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