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#121 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#122 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#123 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,036
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You can't dismiss a rebuttal as an alleged "no true scotsman" when there is literally 0 association except that manufactured by the media and propagated by feminists.
I'm not very cool at all, but thanks! In case it isn't clear I don't auto-hate you simply because you're a feminist, but I'm sure you've noticed I reject most feminist talking points. I'm kinda curious how long ago I self-identified on this forum as MRA. A year? 2? It's hard to keep track. I'm not familiar with that subreddit but I suspect it's miserable lol. Can I assume it's similar to r/deadbedrooms? (again name might be slightly off on this) Interesting. Women however have higher educational achievement in general (even 20 years ago, though I believe it was closer to equal - depends on country I suppose but I don't have those figures handy), and "smarter/more educated" isn't necessarily a part of hypergamy (though I would suspect correlation, all other things equal*). Is average level of education accounted for in this? I'm not sure how that would best be done (since education isn't some linear thing AFAIK where years = money), so wondering if you know any more info on that. I'm not a stats guy (or experimental design) *After all, better education = better income, on average. |
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#124 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,426
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I don't think many people agree with your assertion. I certainly don't. Incels are a subset of the MRM.
As I said before, you can distance yourself from them, but that requires speaking out every time there's an attack and public demonstrations. Anything less will lead the rest of us to think you're all extremists. I notice that MGTOW is getting a white washing in this thread as well. Let's just say, MGTOW is toxic as ****. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#125 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,090
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Because they are traditionally male roles and it was not considered acceptable for women to go into them until about 30-40 years ago, and we're only slowly getting to see that change in the upper parts of the jobs now.
You have to understand that even into the 1970's here, women were expected to become a Teacher, Secretary, Nurse, Stewardess, Phone Operator, Bank Teller, or stay to home and watch the kids as a house wife. They were not allowed to open a bank account or to get a mortgage or any form of financing without the permission of their husband or father. The idea of them becoming a Lawyer, Politician, Police Officer, Religious Minister, Company CEO, or even an Airline Pilot, Electrician, Plumber, or Mechanic was generally laughable and mostly unheard of unless the woman was following in her father's footsteps. It takes time to change those attitudes to where women are accepted in those professions to the point where they feel comfortable actually making inroads, and then to get to the top of them requires overcoming a whole heap more roadblocks on the way. It requires a lot of time as a court lawyer to get to be a Judge. For politicians, while the more liberal parties are putting forward more woman, the more conservative parties are lagging behind considerably. The Police are getting more female Officers and they are rising through the ranks. Protestant Churches are accepting Female ministers, though the Catholic church is still male only. This all takes time to achieve, so we are seeing the first fruits of the changes that started 30 odd years ago, but we still have a long way to go to see equality in these professions. |
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#126 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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Yeah, I noticed that you operate on "benefit of the doubt till proven otherwise", which is why I think you're cool.
![]() Re: subreddits. No, married red pill is much, much, much worse. Lurkers, do not open this if you are under 18:
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"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#127 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#128 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,036
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Nope. Frankly, I will say quite blatantly that I think almost anyone who believes that incels are a subset of the MRM are ignorant or are relying on tribalistic 'othering'.
Q: Do ALL incels contribute to the MRM? ie volunteering, finanically, spreading information, etc.? A: No, therefore they are not a subset. Is there overlap? Yes, some incels are MRAs and some MRAs are incels. |
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#129 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,426
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#130 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#131 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,426
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#132 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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Ok. See, I think relating pharphis to the incel murderers is like relating Contrapoints to the pedophile priests. It's just bad "social taxonomy" (a phrase I just made up, but every time I think I've invented a new phrase, google usually says someone else has had the same thought. lol) .
There's something unscientific there. Incels do not care about their legal rights whatsoever. Nor do they care about men as a group. Nor do they feel like they need to be willing to stand up for themselves. That is not where their minds are at at all. So it's really not fair or correct to lump pharphis in with them as part of any over-reaching group. In taxonomic rank, it's not the case that pharphis and Alek Missanian are different species under the genus MRM. Incels aren't even a part of the MRM, for real. eta: Aaaaaaand, once again I made up a phrase that someone else (or a lot of other people) thought of first. |
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"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#133 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,426
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My point is that Incels are a subset of the MRM, same way as Jihadis are a subset of Islam. We often hear that all Muslims need to constantly make amense and distance themselves from the extremists, lest we think they are also extremists. I'm simply applying that logic to MRAs.
I don't agree with the logic. I'm making a comparison for those that do, because I know that in a Venn diagram, MRAs and Islamophobic alt-righters overlap quite a bit, which is why many high profile MRAs, including all of the MGTOW-gurus are alt-right. |
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#134 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#135 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,426
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#136 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,940
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__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal" |
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#137 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,043
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#138 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#139 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#140 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,043
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#141 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,426
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#142 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,940
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__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal" |
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#143 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#144 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,043
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Well then here's the problem: how does one know if they've been exhausted or if a gender imbalance stems from things we could or should change? That's why we have to look beyond a mere discrepancy in numbers, and not assume that such a discrepancy automatically means there's an underlying problem.
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#145 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#146 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#147 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,426
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#148 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,090
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In the particular jobs we're talking about there is no reason that women can't perform the role at the same levels as a man, so certainly seeing 45-55% of the work force in those jobs would seem to be a logical outcome based on the population mix. For instance, in Law schools, women are now outnumbering the men, so there is certainly no reason that they shouldn't be able to go on and have careers that lead them to becoming Judges in equal or even greater numbers than men.
Same with Politics. More and more women are becoming involved, and, particularly with our system, there are no excuses for parties not to take them seriously and bring them into Parliament. In jobs where the work tends to favour one gender over the others, then one would expect to see higher numbers of that gender in that job, but there you make sure that all the systems are in place to allow the others to take part is they want and then it's up to them is they do. |
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) ![]() |
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#149 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,313
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Your point about social taxonomy is useful. Sure, incels believe in a series of extremely hopeless and violent ideas that make them pretty distinct from moderate MRAs. I wouldn't be so sure that means they aren't related in a very distant way, just on opposite extremes of the spectrum. The same way that some extremist Christian might assassinate an abortion doctor is pretty far ideologically from mainstream Christianity, there's still a shared core philosophy and distant relation. The fact that there are plenty of intermediate positions between these two extremes makes it pretty clear that they exist on the same ideological spectrum.
I would summarize the shared ideology this way. Non-extreme MRA's feel there are certain injustices in this world in regards to men, say family court biases or other such things, that could be fixed through minor reforms. Incels believe all of society is unfairly and irrevocably stacked against them and lay much of this blame at the feet of women, feminism, and generally liberal society. They have no mind towards reform because, in their extremist view, there is no chance of redeeming such great injustices, so they quickly fall into the rut of despair and violence. Again, there are plenty of intermediary points between these two extremes that establish a shared lineage. I won't tar the entire MRA movement just because there is an extremist wing. There are always extremist wings. The question becomes of proportion. The MRA movement seems to have a very large, very active extremist wing, which makes it very concerning. This is unfortunate, because there are several issues in which moderate MRA's make very good points, to my eye. |
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#150 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,794
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The fact that differences exist between males and females us a fact.
But you know from your travels in the manosphere that their use of the phrase carries more than the surface benign meaning. They share some broad ideas about what those differences are and what they imply that are not so inarguably factual. And even the fact that those in these movements use that particular phrasing, which is rare outside their circles helps shape their thoughts and shows the interconnectedness of these communities. |
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The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON |
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#151 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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Incels really just want a pretty girlfriend to love and have sex with, though. It's a distinctly different "etiology" there. Incels are lonely and depressed and suffering from a bizarre social contagion from a hyper-toxic online culture.
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#152 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#153 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,043
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1) That you can see.
2) We're not talking about performance but all possible reasons, including simple lack of interest, which may be either (or both) learned or innate.
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#154 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,940
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Hows does one know when obvious and practical things have been exhausted? By looking at the list of potential things to do and assessing if they are obvious and or practical of course.
This truly is a bizarre question. When do doctors and researchers decide they have cured enough diseases and people live long enough? When do scientists decide they have learned enough? When do politicians decide they have solved enough unemployment? Enough poverty? |
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"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal" |
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#155 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#156 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,940
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__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal" |
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#157 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,313
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The incel self-identity may have started as a very literal "people who can't find romance" umbrella community, it is predominantly an extreme misogynist movement now that can be traced from other extreme MRA subsets. Being "black-pilled" is a dead giveaway, being an even more extremist version of "red pill" MRAs, which is saying something given that was already a fringe wing.
Funnily enough, the person who coined the term "incel" was a woman who was experiencing a long period of loneliness. Such a person would probably be hounded by rape threats and excluded from the modern incel community, should they expose that they were a woman. Many incels would insist that women are incapable of being considered incels themselves, given their view of a world in which women are inherently privileged. |
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#158 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,794
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Throughout history, the lesser involvement of women and racial and ethnic minorities in particular sectors of life has been more or less chalked up to their "natural" lesser abilities.
And at least in the western world, the toppling of legal institutional and social barriers and the introduction of support and encouragement has a consistent slope towards more representation in broader fields. In the 19th century, of course women couldn't vote. They were biologically incapable of making those decisions. By the 60s, of course women didn't hold many elected offices, they were naturally compelled to raise children etc etc. So far, most predictions of "This is really the natural limit of how much women/black people/whatever can participate in government/tech/whatever" have been wrong. So my default has become to consider biological fatalism of inequality false until it has incredibly strong evidence. And even with evidence to hold it suspect. |
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The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON |
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#159 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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#160 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
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__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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