ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th April 2019, 04:55 AM   #161
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,775
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I dunno. I first encountered the phrase and controversy over the concept in anti trans feminist circles. It might just be a hot topic on the internet right now.
It may have a wider spread than I've encountered. Have you seen it widely used outside spaces that have a toxic gender essentialist viewpoint though?

I haven't read much within TERF culture, but I don't see the phrase in other feminist communities I engage with.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 04:57 AM   #162
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,786
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Throughout history, the lesser involvement of women and racial and ethnic minorities in particular sectors of life has been more or less chalked up to their "natural" lesser abilities.

And at least in the western world, the toppling of legal institutional and social barriers and the introduction of support and encouragement has a consistent slope towards more representation in broader fields.

In the 19th century, of course women couldn't vote. They were biologically incapable of making those decisions. By the 60s, of course women didn't hold many elected offices, they were naturally compelled to raise children etc etc.

So far, most predictions of "This is really the natural limit of how much women/black people/whatever can participate in government/tech/whatever" have been wrong.

So my default has become to consider biological fatalism of inequality false until it has incredibly strong evidence. And even with evidence to hold it suspect.
Exactly.

And you never see the same logic applied anywhere else. Nobody ever argues we should stop any other form of progress because we don't know what the limit is to how much better things can get but show them a woman in engineering program and they are overcome with doubts!
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:03 AM   #163
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,583
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
It may have a wider spread than I've encountered. Have you seen it widely used outside spaces that have a toxic gender essentialist viewpoint though?

I haven't read much within TERF culture, but I don't see the phrase in other feminist communities I engage with.
Just a TERF thing. Or TERF vs trans-inclusive wars thing, to be more specific. Some of the trans-inclusive folks (the side I take myself) don't like the fact that it exists, particularly the neurological aspect, which is very real.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:10 AM   #164
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,348
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Hows does one know when obvious and practical things have been exhausted? By looking at the list of potential things to do and assessing if they are obvious and or practical of course.

This truly is a bizarre question.
It really isn't. At some point you look at, let's say theoretically, astronauts, and realise that 95% of them are men and you think "whoa, that can't be right." so you try to encourage women to work in the field, maybe throw some money at the problem, campaigns to raise awareness, laws to prevent discrimination, and work to solve workplace harrassment and so on. Then you look at astronauts and realise that 75% of them are men and you think "woah, that can't be right" and you try some other things, and 20 years later you look again and realise that 70% of them are men.

So my question, which is really not bizarre, is: when do you come to the conclusion that you've actually done all you reasonably can and just say "woah, that's apparently right."?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:14 AM   #165
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,348
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Throughout history, the lesser involvement of women and racial and ethnic minorities in particular sectors of life has been more or less chalked up to their "natural" lesser abilities.
Except in areas where they dominate, I suppose. Do you think we should have a hard push for men to be 50% of social workers and teachers, too?

We're not in those times where women were considered second-class citizens. Bringing up those times is just a distraction. I'm talking about now, not then.

Quote:
In the 19th century, of course women couldn't vote. They were biologically incapable of making those decisions.
That's not why they couldn't vote. Also remember that not long before that point, men couldn't vote.

Quote:
So far, most predictions of "This is really the natural limit of how much women/black people/whatever can participate in government/tech/whatever" have been wrong.
That isn't my point. My point is about where the expected balance is. We don't expect that women would be 0% of doctors, but we don't expect 100% or necessarily 50% either. All of those would stem more from ideology rather than reality.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:22 AM   #166
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,233
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Except in areas where they dominate, I suppose. Do you think we should have a hard push for men to be 50% of social workers and teachers, too?
The lack of men working in education is an identified problem. Many have linked the source of the problem with the relatively low salaries and status that teachers make compared to other educated professionals.

The offered explanations are often twofold:

1) Feeback loop: Teaching is known as "women's work", so men don't consider it as a viable career path, reinforcing it as a place for women

2) Low pay. More pressure is on men to maximize salaries and prestige through their chosen careers.

Raising the pay and prestige of teaching, as a career, would both benefit the women who choose those careers and likely result in more men choosing teaching as a career.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:31 AM   #167
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,786
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It really isn't. At some point you look at, let's say theoretically, astronauts, and realise that 95% of them are men and you think "whoa, that can't be right." so you try to encourage women to work in the field, maybe throw some money at the problem, campaigns to raise awareness, laws to prevent discrimination, and work to solve workplace harrassment and so on. Then you look at astronauts and realise that 75% of them are men and you think "woah, that can't be right" and you try some other things, and 20 years later you look again and realise that 70% of them are men.

So my question, which is really not bizarre, is: when do you come to the conclusion that you've actually done all you reasonably can and just say "woah, that's apparently right."?
No it really is a bizarre question because that's not how we approach ANYTHING else.

At what point do we look at cancer and think 'well that's just right. People get cancer and die. Nothing more we can do. Let's go down the pub'?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:35 AM   #168
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,786
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post

That isn't my point. My point is about where the expected balance is. We don't expect that women would be 0% of doctors, but we don't expect 100% or necessarily 50% either. All of those would stem more from ideology rather than reality.
Actually we do expect that absent other good reasons why they wouldn't be then people would be represented more or less in everything proportional to their representation in the population.

If you want to show that discrepancies are caused by other good reasons then fine, but you need to show those good reasons not just assert that they are there.

And yes that goes just as much for men in other professions as well.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:37 AM   #169
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,583
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The lack of men working in education is an identified problem. Many have linked the source of the problem with the relatively low salaries and status that teachers make compared to other educated professionals.

The offered explanations are often twofold:

1) Feeback loop: Teaching is known as "women's work", so men don't consider it as a viable career path, reinforcing it as a place for women

2) Low pay. More pressure is on men to maximize salaries and prestige through their chosen careers.

Raising the pay and prestige of teaching, as a career, would both benefit the women who choose those careers and likely result in more men choosing teaching as a career.
Maybe, maybe not. Teaching is high pay, high prestige in Finland, and:

https://www.oph.fi/download/148962_T...in_Finland.pdf
Quote:
A big proportion of
Finnish teachers are
female. This is the case
particularly in pre-primary
education, where more
than 90 per cent of the
teachers are female. In
upper secondary education the gender
distribution is more in balance. Also in an
international comparison, the teaching
profession is slightly
more female-dominated than in other
countries.
Their reforms are still relatively new, though. There could be a cultural lag.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

Last edited by kellyb; 11th April 2019 at 05:40 AM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:40 AM   #170
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,775
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The lack of men working in education is an identified problem. Many have linked the source of the problem with the relatively low salaries and status that teachers make compared to other educated professionals.
We don't even have to speculate on that. We've got the correspondence between the architects of the US public education system.

Paraphrased

Guy 1: We totally need public education for all American children!

Guy 2: Well duh. But hiring teachers is expensive. Dudes with that much education get high salaries?

Guy 1: What if we use women? We can pay them peanuts.

Guy 2: Radical!
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:48 AM   #171
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,233
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Maybe, maybe not. Teaching is high pay, high prestige in Finland, and:

https://www.oph.fi/download/148962_T...in_Finland.pdf


Their reforms are still relatively new, though. There could be a cultural lag.
Realistically, I doubt it's enough to just correct the underlying problem. Cultural inertia will carry itself for a while. After decades of being "women's work", there will likely need to be an active campaign to recruit young men into the profession. Once the norm is broken, I suspect the need for such targeted recruitment will lessen.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:51 AM   #172
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,233
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
We don't even have to speculate on that. We've got the correspondence between the architects of the US public education system.

Paraphrased

Guy 1: We totally need public education for all American children!

Guy 2: Well duh. But hiring teachers is expensive. Dudes with that much education get high salaries?

Guy 1: What if we use women? We can pay them peanuts.

Guy 2: Radical!
It's a political problem of huge proportions. Given the vast number of public school teachers, even a modest increase in salary will have huge budget impacts. Some localities struggle to even keep the salary flat with inflation, so teachers are actually facing decreasing effective salaries.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 05:58 AM   #173
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,348
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The lack of men working in education is an identified problem.
But is it really a problem?

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
No it really is a bizarre question because that's not how we approach ANYTHING else.

At what point do we look at cancer and think 'well that's just right. People get cancer and die. Nothing more we can do. Let's go down the pub'?
What's bizarre is your characterisation. We KNOW cancer is a problem because we've defined it as such. We don't KNOW that there is a problem underlying a gender imbalance in any field, just by there being an imbalance. What I'm saying is that the imbalance, in and of itself, is not enough to conclude that there's a problem.

Quote:
Actually we do expect that absent other good reasons why they wouldn't be then people would be represented more or less in everything proportional to their representation in the population.
Absent other good reasons. That's my freaking point!

Quote:
If you want to show that discrepancies are caused by other good reasons then fine, but you need to show those good reasons not just assert that they are there.
You're the one claiming that there's a problem, there. Don't shift the burden onto me. You need to exclude other possible causes before you draw that conclusion.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 06:00 AM   #174
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,233
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But is it really a problem?


I would say so. Social development is an important part of primary school education. It would be nice if young boys have male role models during their education that weren't athletic coaches.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 06:02 AM   #175
Wirelight
Thinker
 
Wirelight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 234
"Man-Up" - Statistics Tell Us That American Boys Are Falling Behind In Just About Every Area

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...out-every-area

Don't let the statistics or facts get in the way of feminism that boys are privileged and thus don't matter. How has this become socially acceptable? The second someone brings up well documented stats on boys & young men's issues...the feminists start saying how talking about boys issues takes away from girls issues. WTF? And the documented evidence that boys have fallen behind in so many things doesn't matter in the least bit?

And this is why I'm an MRA and MGTOW of many many years. It's not about hating women, it's about hating the double standards that men face in their day to day lives. Real double standards that can ruin your life at the drop of a hat. I don't play that game anymore... the risk vs. reward thing, just so not worth it.

And just to clarify about Red Pill, there's actually 2 different Red Pills. One of them could be called the advent of the PUA community. "Hold frame and Lift". Be alpha, never show weakness, get women to sleep with you. Pretty basic.

The second is the difference between Red Pill & Blue Pill. And it IS a Matrix movie reference. Blue Pilled is when you believe what society has told your entire life about women, marriage and being a man. Treat a woman right, be a good provider and she will love you forever and you'll have a happy life. When you take the Red Pill you realize this is all absolute nonsense and usually it takes a severe breakup to see how the society and the courts blames mostly everything on men and the abhorrent double standards men face. And then we're told to man up and deal with it!

An uneducated poster earlier in the thread said MGTOW is toxic. How is me simply walking away from potential relationships toxic? Granted, there's a lot of dudes that hate women and spout drivel... however there's a lot of women that hate men. But they get a social pass because "oppression" and "patriarchy".

It's all so messed up, but in the meantime I don't have to worry about getting cleaned out by a vengeful woman. Quite frankly, I sleep better at night knowing that

Last edited by Wirelight; 11th April 2019 at 06:04 AM.
Wirelight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 06:09 AM   #176
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,348
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I would say so. Social development is an important part of primary school education. It would be nice if young boys have male role models during their education that weren't athletic coaches.
I agree but that's not necessarily the same as it being a problem. "It would be nice" isn't the same as "it negatively impacts students."
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 06:14 AM   #177
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,414
Originally Posted by Wirelight View Post
"Man-Up" - Statistics Tell Us That American Boys Are Falling Behind In Just About Every Area

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...out-every-area

Don't let the statistics or facts get in the way of feminism that boys are privileged and thus don't matter. How has this become socially acceptable? The second someone brings up well documented stats on boys & young men's issues...the feminists start saying how talking about boys issues takes away from girls issues. WTF? And the documented evidence that boys have fallen behind in so many things doesn't matter in the least bit?

And this is why I'm an MRA and MGTOW of many many years. It's not about hating women, it's about hating the double standards that men face in their day to day lives. Real double standards that can ruin your life at the drop of a hat. I don't play that game anymore... the risk vs. reward thing, just so not worth it.

And just to clarify about Red Pill, there's actually 2 different Red Pills. One of them could be called the advent of the PUA community. "Hold frame and Lift". Be alpha, never show weakness, get women to sleep with you. Pretty basic.

The second is the difference between Red Pill & Blue Pill. And it IS a Matrix movie reference. Blue Pilled is when you believe what society has told your entire life about women, marriage and being a man. Treat a woman right, be a good provider and she will love you forever and you'll have a happy life. When you take the Red Pill you realize this is all absolute nonsense and usually it takes a severe breakup to see how the society and the courts blames mostly everything on men and the abhorrent double standards men face. And then we're told to man up and deal with it!

An uneducated poster earlier in the thread said MGTOW is toxic. How is me simply walking away from potential relationships toxic? Granted, there's a lot of dudes that hate women and spout drivel... however there's a lot of women that hate men. But they get a social pass because "oppression" and "patriarchy".

It's all so messed up, but in the meantime I don't have to worry about getting cleaned out by a vengeful woman. Quite frankly, I sleep better at night knowing that
Good example of what I've been saying about MGTOW, including a link to Zerohedge. Thanks.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 06:29 AM   #178
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,233
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Good example of what I've been saying about MGTOW, including a link to Zerohedge. Thanks.
MGTOW is the perfect example of ideological linkage between the incel death cults and respectable MRA.

MRA's: Some things are unjust and should be reformed
MGTOWs: The world is dangerous for men, wall yourself off from women and society.
Incels: There is no hope for the men, kill yourself and others.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 06:44 AM   #179
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,348
Originally Posted by Wirelight View Post
Blue Pilled is when you believe what society has told your entire life about women, marriage and being a man. Treat a woman right, be a good provider and she will love you forever and you'll have a happy life. When you take the Red Pill you realize this is all absolute nonsense and usually it takes a severe breakup to see how the society and the courts blames mostly everything on men and the abhorrent double standards men face.
Sorry, what are you talking about? First, if you're a good provider it sure helps in having stable relationships. Maybe that's the problem, not women or society.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 07:09 AM   #180
Georgio
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 634
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't think many people agree with your assertion. I certainly don't. Incels are a subset of the MRM.
I have explained why this isn't the case multiple times now. The men's rights movement is concerned with the societal rights of men and assumes that they should be the same as the societal rights of women. It focuses on addressing ways in which society is biased against men and boys (domestic violence 'treatment', family courts and so on).

Incels are the polar opposite to that. They see men as being worthless if they aren't in a sexual relationship with women and that men should have more rights to choose sexual partners than women should.

Saying that incels are a subset of the MRM is like saying that fox hunters are a subset of the anti-fox hunting movement. They're not just nothing to do with it; they actively oppose it.
__________________
Violence is a weakness, not a strength. - Sylvester McCoy

Last edited by Georgio; 11th April 2019 at 07:10 AM.
Georgio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 07:14 AM   #181
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,414
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I have explained why this isn't the case multiple times now. The men's rights movement is concerned with the societal rights of men and assumes that they should be the same as the societal rights of women. It focuses on addressing ways in which society is biased against men and boys (domestic violence 'treatment', family courts and so on).

Incels are the polar opposite to that. They see men as being worthless if they aren't in a sexual relationship with women and that men should have more rights to choose sexual partners than women should.

Saying that incels are a subset of the MRM is like saying that fox hunters are a subset of the anti-fox hunting movement. They're not just nothing to do with it; they actively oppose it.
I know you believe this. I am saying that I belive you are wrong. And I'm not the only one.

SuburbanTurkey in his post above yours has a nice summary of my view.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 07:24 AM   #182
Georgio
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 634
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I know you believe this. I am saying that I belive you are wrong. And I'm not the only one.
Argument from belief and argument from popularity: nice combo. And don't act like all I'm saying is all you're saying which is 'I believe'; I have provided reasons for my 'belief', you have not.

Quote:
SuburbanTurkey in his post above yours has a nice summary of my view.
Oh, I'm sure he does. His argument throughout has been an argument from ignorance:

- I've decided that these groups are essentially all the same and subsets of each other based on no research.

- Here is some explicit ways in which these groups differ.

- Sorry, did you not see my first statement?

- Um...here is some ways in which these groups actively oppose each other.

- Look, just read my first statement, will you? Everyone else agrees with me, you know.

- Here are some central, defining tenets of, for example, incels and MRAs that actually make them mutually exclusive

- I don't doubt that you believe this. I believe you are wrong.


Not terribly convincing, is it?
__________________
Violence is a weakness, not a strength. - Sylvester McCoy

Last edited by Georgio; 11th April 2019 at 07:25 AM.
Georgio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 07:36 AM   #183
Georgio
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 634
@kellyb
You seem very switched on, reasonable and fair. You say you identify as a feminist; can I ask what you think of the Duluth Model of domestic violence 'treatment', Erin Pizzey and her history with feminism, Earl Silverman and his history with it and so on? I can provide resources but you seem more informed than me anyway
__________________
Violence is a weakness, not a strength. - Sylvester McCoy
Georgio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 07:48 AM   #184
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,136
The only way for that "incels are a subset of MRAs" tripe to make sense is if you get & use a misdefinition of "MRA" from the kind of feminist who uses "MRA" to mislabel opponents in any dispute on any feminist subject at all, regardless of the subject they were on had anything to do with men's rights & legal equality. I've only seen that happen a few times, but I've also not seen "MRA" used very often in general either, so it's not hard to see how someone with a slightly more skewed sample could seriously think "MRA" means "anybody whom certain feminists don't like" just from the way some have used it.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 07:53 AM   #185
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,283
I would never want to marry someone who made more money than me. I know anecdotes don't disprove generalities, and I know that since I'm currently a starving student my income level is laughable anyway, but it's true. I would feel very uncomfortable with a stark socioeconomic difference. I'd prefer a fairly even split, though I wouldn't have any problem being the breadwinner either. But I've never fantasized about getting myself a "provider," because that sounds creepy. I'm my own provider. I want a friend.

I basically agree with everything kelly said, except I don't personally identify as feminist. But it's definitely true that the extreme radfems and the extreme Redpillers are both insufferable. It makes me feel sick some days that there are groups out there who hate me so much purely for existing, but that's life. I try not to think about it. It does get me down sometimes. And yes, sometimes it scares me. I would worry about it more if i were active in the dating scene.

Last edited by isissxn; 11th April 2019 at 07:58 AM.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 07:58 AM   #186
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,596
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I would never want to marry someone who made more money than me. I know anecdotes don't disprove generalities, and I know that since I'm currently a starving student my income level is laughable anyway, but it's true. I would feel very uncomfortable with a stark socioeconomic difference. I'd prefer a fairly even split, though I wouldn't have any problem being the breadwinner either. But I've never fantasized about getting myself a "provider," because that sounds creepy. I'm my own provider. I want a friend.
With good partnership and good communication, it really shouldn't matter long-term. My wife and I have alternated being the bigger breadwinner - first it was her by far, then me for a long time, and now I'm working on a new venture and she makes more money and has the health-care coverage for us. We have even both had our families help us, and helped our families at different times. Over many years, this kind of stuff can change. She doesn't actually love the pressure of this, and I'll probably go back to the breadwinner role in a few years.

When choosing a life partner, consider that, if a person makes more than you today, it's still just a snapshot in time.
carlitos is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:04 AM   #187
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 52,121
If economic disparity spoils relationships for you, I have a simple solution: marry someone fantastically wealthy then have them give their wealth to me. I encourage everyone to accept my generous offer. I'll save your relationships by bearing the dreadful burden of enormous riches. I'm that good of a person! So please, allow me to help you help me to helping myself to the money. True Love: it's worth it!!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:05 AM   #188
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,283
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
With good partnership and good communication, it really shouldn't matter long-term. My wife and I have alternated being the bigger breadwinner - first it was her by far, then me for a long time, and now I'm working on a new venture and she makes more money and has the health-care coverage for us. We have even both had our families help us, and helped our families at different times. Over many years, this kind of stuff can change. She doesn't actually love the pressure of this, and I'll probably go back to the breadwinner role in a few years.

When choosing a life partner, consider that, if a person makes more than you today, it's still just a snapshot in time.
Yeah, I worded that stupidly. If I met a billionaire who clicked with me perfectly, maybe it wouldn't matter. But in general, when I ponder the notion of "marrying up," or whatever - and I mean ponder the trope academically, not like, plot to do it - I get chills. I would be so intimidated by someone significantly richer than me that it just feels like there's no way I could even get through a date. Maybe it's cultural stereotypes I've taken to heart. Maybe it's something else. I really don't know. All I know is, I've always kind of squirmed at the idea.

It's kind of a moot point anyway since I am not on the market, but I'm not married either (and have never been), so these things cross my mind regardless.

Last edited by isissxn; 11th April 2019 at 08:14 AM. Reason: added clarification
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:10 AM   #189
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,283
In any case, it's rather nice to see a discussion of these finer points and issues outside of Reddit-type places (which I like to refer to as "cyberhell"). Thanks to pharphis and Georgio (and others) for making it possible. I'm actually learning things, and my mind is getting busy.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:12 AM   #190
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,233
Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Argument from belief and argument from popularity: nice combo. And don't act like all I'm saying is all you're saying which is 'I believe'; I have provided reasons for my 'belief', you have not.



Oh, I'm sure he does. His argument throughout has been an argument from ignorance:

- I've decided that these groups are essentially all the same and subsets of each other based on no research.

- Here is some explicit ways in which these groups differ.

- Sorry, did you not see my first statement?

- Um...here is some ways in which these groups actively oppose each other.

- Look, just read my first statement, will you? Everyone else agrees with me, you know.

- Here are some central, defining tenets of, for example, incels and MRAs that actually make them mutually exclusive

- I don't doubt that you believe this. I believe you are wrong.


Not terribly convincing, is it?
Subsets isn't the best way to describe incels and MRA. It's more like degree of radicalization.

By the time you reach incels, all reason has been abandoned. Incels purely focus on resentment and anger towards women and a cruel world. 100% id, 0% ego.

The degree of radicalization from MRA to more extreme groups is pretty easy to track. There are various sub groups along the way, and even within those sub groups various degrees of radicalization. MGTOW and redpill is a good example, where MRA issues become increasingly less important while resentment of women and society take higher priority.

I think MGTOW and redpill are better examples, because they are intermediary between the extreme incels and moderate MRAs. Redpill is inherently misogynist, because it supposes that women are inherently duplicitous, superficial, and irrational, and such poor qualities must either be gamed for sex, or guarded against. Likewise, MGTOW exists as a response to protecting men from such wicked, evil women. Already in these intermediate groups you can see that focus on issues diminishes while hyperbolic reactions to misogynistic stereotypes take prominence. This is radicalization in action.

These radicalized groups, especially the extremely radicalized (incels) are very different than moderate MRAs. They hold different views, different goals, and different attitudes. They are so far from each other, ideologically, that they must be mutually exclusive groups. That doesn't mean they don't exist within a shared larger community of ideas. That's the nature of radicalism.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 11th April 2019 at 08:18 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:14 AM   #191
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,775
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I know you believe this. I am saying that I belive you are wrong. And I'm not the only one.

SuburbanTurkey in his post above yours has a nice summary of my view.
But to be specific, SuburbanTurkey didn't in that post say that Incels are a subset of MRM and I don't think they are either. Both are subsets of a larger group with some shared ideas and some divergences.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the turkey. I would call it more like splinter sects within a wider shared worldview than degrees of radicalization, but I see how he gets there.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON

Last edited by Cavemonster; 11th April 2019 at 08:17 AM.
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:22 AM   #192
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,786
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But is it really a problem?



What's bizarre is your characterisation. We KNOW cancer is a problem because we've defined it as such. We don't KNOW that there is a problem underlying a gender imbalance in any field, just by there being an imbalance. What I'm saying is that the imbalance, in and of itself, is not enough to conclude that there's a problem.



Absent other good reasons. That's my freaking point!



You're the one claiming that there's a problem, there. Don't shift the burden onto me. You need to exclude other possible causes before you draw that conclusion.
If you believe that equality has to be justified and inequality doesn't then you simply don't believe in equality.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:23 AM   #193
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,283
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If economic disparity spoils relationships for you, I have a simple solution: marry someone fantastically wealthy then have them give their wealth to me. I encourage everyone to accept my generous offer. I'll save your relationships by bearing the dreadful burden of enormous riches. I'm that good of a person! So please, allow me to help you help me to helping myself to the money. True Love: it's worth it!!
If you need some dough, just get a few unsuspecting people to agree to give you a dollar every time you say something hilarious. Their money will soon be your money.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:31 AM   #194
pharphis
Master Poster
 
pharphis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,036
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
My point is that Incels are a subset of the MRM, same way as Jihadis are a subset of Islam. We often hear that all Muslims need to constantly make amense and distance themselves from the extremists, lest we think they are also extremists. I'm simply applying that logic to MRAs.

I don't agree with the logic. I'm making a comparison for those that do, because I know that in a Venn diagram, MRAs and Islamophobic alt-righters overlap quite a bit, which is why many high profile MRAs, including all of the MGTOW-gurus are alt-right.
Do you not realize that there is a logical connection to extremists under a religion ideology (who use the same name for their religion, same holy book, etc.) and guys who might happen to run into the same sphere online sometimes because only the manosphere really talks about these issues?

re highlighted: I am HIGHLY doubtful of this. alt-righters aren't MRAs, either. They're anti-feminists, sure. I think there is very little overlap.
pharphis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:34 AM   #195
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,233
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post

EDIT: Ninja'd by the turkey. I would call it more like splinter sects within a wider shared worldview than degrees of radicalization, but I see how he gets there.
That's probably a better way to describe what I meant. It's not a single axis. It's a constellation of splinter groups with varying degrees of varying views, but all sharing some common concepts. Extremism or radicalization can occur on multiple axes. Incels are pretty much extreme on all axes, with misogyny, self-hate, racism, fatalism, and violence being notable examples.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:39 AM   #196
pharphis
Master Poster
 
pharphis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,036
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
This is a somewhat strange definition being used. I don't think you need to actively contribute to a movement to be part of it.

Not all Republicans volunteer or fund the Republican Party. Some probably don't even vote for them. But they are still Republicans.
So what makes them republicans?

1) Republican is a VERY large political label. Much more general than "MRA"
2) I think if you don't vote, financially support or at least endorse the republican party then it's a bit silly to call one a republican.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The incel self-identity may have started as a very literal "people who can't find romance" umbrella community, it is predominantly an extreme misogynist movement now that can be traced from other extreme MRA subsets. Being "black-pilled" is a dead giveaway, being an even more extremist version of "red pill" MRAs, which is saying something given that was already a fringe wing.

Funnily enough, the person who coined the term "incel" was a woman who was experiencing a long period of loneliness. Such a person would probably be hounded by rape threats and excluded from the modern incel community, should they expose that they were a woman. Many incels would insist that women are incapable of being considered incels themselves, given their view of a world in which women are inherently privileged.
I feel like MRA keeps being used when it shouldn't. Manosphere subsets? Sure.

edit: you've made your position more clear since, disregard if you want

Last edited by pharphis; 11th April 2019 at 08:55 AM.
pharphis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:41 AM   #197
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,775
Quote:
The lack of men working in education is an identified problem.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But is it really a problem?
I think it is. Not to go too much into a tangent, one place I agree with some MRAs is in noticing that young boys aren't statistically doing great in our early educational system.

One facet of this is that behavioral expectations tend to be easier for girls between 5-18 or so to fit into than boys in the same age group.

The cause of the divergence in behavior may be whatever mix of biology and expectations but the result is there. I do think the divergence makes itself more felt in students with fewer resources. Students who don't have great examples of good school habits or support at home. And that correlates often to lower income students and to students of color who get a double whammy because their teachers are more likely than the population percentages to be white even in schools with predominantly people of color. Which means young black boys are especially less likely to have a student who gets them and builds a classroom where their most effective ways of learning and working and communicating are rewarded. That's part of how we end up with an epidemic of "oppositional defiant disorder". In my opinion.

While it isn't impossible for a particular female teacher to understand boys well and create a system in which they thrive, across a whole system we see that a school ecosystem of mostly women creates broadly a lot of environments where boys fail to thrive.

So we get young boys turned off to education at an early age.

Now you may say "We've always had mostly female teachers, why is this a problem now?". I would guess that so much of the rest of culture slanted in favor of boys success that it's been masking these issues until attempts to level those playing fields revealed the issue. Until relatively recently, boys had a massive advantage in role models, educational toys and activities pitched to them and not to girls, a job market that actively or culturally excluded women and, importantly in the US, a manufacturing industry providing stable employment for men who weren't great at formal education.

All of these things shifting reveals an underlying issue.

That's just one way in which the lack of male teachers (as well as the lack of teachers of color) is a problem. There are related issues of the importance of role models, social ideas of men as caregivers and a whole bunch of other things as well.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:43 AM   #198
pharphis
Master Poster
 
pharphis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,036
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
It may have a wider spread than I've encountered. Have you seen it widely used outside spaces that have a toxic gender essentialist viewpoint though?

I haven't read much within TERF culture, but I don't see the phrase in other feminist communities I engage with.
Sexual dimorphism is a biological term. It's relations to humans originates (or mostly predominates) in evo psychology. I see evo psychologists use this term without problem - unfortunately it is often in response to advocacy pretending that male and female differences don't exist (see academics respond to google memo controversy, trans sports issues)
pharphis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:47 AM   #199
pharphis
Master Poster
 
pharphis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,036
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Except in areas where they dominate, I suppose. Do you think we should have a hard push for men to be 50% of social workers and teachers, too?

We're not in those times where women were considered second-class citizens. Bringing up those times is just a distraction. I'm talking about now, not then.



That's not why they couldn't vote. Also remember that not long before that point, men couldn't vote.



That isn't my point. My point is about where the expected balance is. We don't expect that women would be 0% of doctors, but we don't expect 100% or necessarily 50% either. All of those would stem more from ideology rather than reality.
No one ever seems to care about this. They seem to think that a decade or two of rich people voting (or land-owning, or whatever) is somehow indicative of unique oppression of women. There seems to be this image that men had centuries of voting before women did.
pharphis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th April 2019, 08:49 AM   #200
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,775
Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Sexual dimorphism is a biological term. It's relations to humans originates (or mostly predominates) in evo psychology. I see evo psychologists use this term without problem - unfortunately it is often in response to advocacy pretending that male and female differences don't exist (see academics respond to google memo controversy, trans sports issues)
I don't want to get too hung up on that particular term.

While I do have some issues with the way those groups in the manosphere use the term and what they believe it implies, it was just one among many examples I could give of shared concepts, language and ideology among these groups.

My argument here is that MRAs, Incels, MGTOW, Redpillers and PUAs share some baseline language and worldviews.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:44 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.