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Old 10th April 2019, 03:12 AM   #1
3point14
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China’s Uyghur Detention Camps

Are possibly the largest mass detention since the holocaust.


Had you heard of it? As the article points out:

"it is neither front-page news nor a major part of diplomatic or political dialogue.

In many respects, that is testament to how ruthlessly effective China’s approach has been."


Forgot the link:

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/a...tion-holocaust


I predict that China will do whatever it wants and no international pressure will be brought to bear.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:52 AM   #2
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I think international pressure will do squat.
We have known about these camps for a couple of years, but no one can really do anything about them.
The one countries that could put the squeeze on China are the Islamic countries that China wants to run its New Silk Road through - but they consider the Uyghur to be their dumb cousins who don't matter.
And now China can't stop, since by now, they have radicalized everyone of the Muslim minority, incarcerated or not. They would see massive terror if they reduce the force of their Gestapo tactics.
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:01 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are possibly the largest mass detention since the holocaust.


Had you heard of it? As the article points out:

"it is neither front-page news nor a major part of diplomatic or political dialogue.
I've read plenty of articles in Newspapers and online that talk about this, and it's certainly a major part of the diplomatic criticism China faces from the west.

Besides the detention camps are only a symptom of the extreme police state the Chinese have decided to implement in Xinjiang:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ce-prison.html
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:03 AM   #4
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Modern China is bizarre. They want the territory of an empire without the cosmopolitanism of an empire. When has that ever worked?
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:07 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Originally Posted by New Statesman
According to the US State Department, the United Nations and other researchers and activists [...]

I've collected some articles on the topic here. The first is titled "No, the UN Did Not Report China Has ‘Massive Internment Camps’ for Uighur Muslims". The second describes the situation on the ground (crass surveillance system, no sign of detention camps), the others deal with the kind of "activists" who make those claims.
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Old 10th April 2019, 06:36 AM   #6
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources...a_hidden_camps

Loooong-winded report from BBC.

If one took an official tour and walked away confidently concluding there's "no sign" of camps, well, good for them.

I say all that big talk sounds like doodly-squat.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:58 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I've collected some articles on the topic here. The first is titled "No, the UN Did Not Report China Has ‘Massive Internment Camps’ for Uighur Muslims". The second describes the situation on the ground (crass surveillance system, no sign of detention camps), the others deal with the kind of "activists" who make those claims.
Couple of points, they actually have sat photos of the camps, and the Chinese admitted that they exist.

I have expertly covered the religious aspects of this elsewhere.
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Old 10th April 2019, 12:38 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Couple of points, they actually have sat photos of the camps, and the Chinese admitted that they exist.

I've seen the sat photos. Not convinced. Source for the latter claim?
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Old 10th April 2019, 01:31 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are possibly the largest mass detention since the holocaust.


Had you heard of it? As the article points out:

"it is neither front-page news nor a major part of diplomatic or political dialogue.

In many respects, that is testament to how ruthlessly effective China’s approach has been."


Forgot the link:

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/a...tion-holocaust


I predict that China will do whatever it wants and no international pressure will be brought to bear.
CHina will do whatever it wants with no more then a little "tsking Tsking" by the rest of the world.
Reason:China's economic power. "Money Talks, No One Walks".
That and China get cuts a lot of slack by some intellectuals who see it as some kind of savior from the evil US.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I've collected some articles on the topic here. The first is titled "No, the UN Did Not Report China Has ‘Massive Internment Camps’ for Uighur Muslims". The second describes the situation on the ground (crass surveillance system, no sign of detention camps), the others deal with the kind of "activists" who make those claims.
I don't think it's a massive internment camp, but there is some sort of re-education center there. They actually call it that, which is very retro-Soviet. It sounds like they're using enhanced interrogation type techniques in there - not waterboarding, but sleep deprivation and things like that, to break people down and then "save" them when they drop the Islam and embrace China.

I read a very non-propaganda-ish article on it a while back, about how the primary technique the gov is using is to just immerse people there in Chinese activities and Chinese culture, with various neighborhood duties which reinforce the culture, so hopefully the focus on Islam will just wear off.

I'm not sure I'll ever be able to re-find what I read, though, which sucks. I hate making claims without evidence to back them.
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:13 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I've seen the sat photos. Not convinced. Source for the latter claim?
The BBC could be lying I guess, but:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45812419

Quote:
But officials attending a UN human rights meeting admitted that Uighurs "deceived by religious extremism" were undergoing re-education and resettlement.
Quote:
Xinjiang says the centres will tackle extremism through "thought transformation".
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The BBC could be lying I guess, but:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45812419

That's far from "admitting" a detention camps program in the millions as the story goes. And I don't doubt that there's some grain of truth to the story, not least because I know that the "deceived by religious extremism" claim you quoted is definitely true. In the Idlib province in Syria, which is today an open-air detention camp of all kinds of Jihadi cut-throats with al-Qaeda (aka Hayat Tahrir al-Sham) running the show, there's a whole area of several towns and villages populated by Uighurs who came there through Turkey in the years after 2011, brainwashed by the usual programs run by Saudi and Gulf money. The estimates center around ten thousand of them and you can see the area here in yellow on the map, the "Turkistan Islamic Party". Some nicknamed Jisr al-Shughour to Jisr al-Uighur already.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The BBC could be lying I guess, but:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45812419
Everything they say is a lie. You need to read more obscure blogs by crazy crackpot conspiracy theorist, Russian trolls and other people with a consistent record of distributing misinformation. That's where the truth is!
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:18 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
That's far from "admitting" a detention camps program in the millions as the story goes.
Anyone claiming to know the numbers is probably making things up if they can't show their math + the evidence.

Medium-sized (?) torture and brainwashing facility vs giant internment camps. There's something uncool going on either way, there. And yeah, I know many of the Muslims really are brainwashed into radical Islam.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:23 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Everything they say is a lie. You need to read more obscure blogs by crazy crackpot conspiracy theorist, Russian trolls and other people with a consistent record of distributing misinformation. That's where the truth is!
The BBC actually has been caught lying before, iirc. Nothing geopolitical can be taken on faith with the MSM, seriously.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:38 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't think it's a massive internment camp, but there is some sort of re-education center there. They actually call it that, which is very retro-Soviet. It sounds like they're using enhanced interrogation type techniques in there - not waterboarding, but sleep deprivation and things like that, to break people down and then "save" them when they drop the Islam and embrace China.

I read a very non-propaganda-ish article on it a while back, about how the primary technique the gov is using is to just immerse people there in Chinese activities and Chinese culture, with various neighborhood duties which reinforce the culture, so hopefully the focus on Islam will just wear off.

I'm not sure I'll ever be able to re-find what I read, though, which sucks. I hate making claims without evidence to back them.
A Concentration camp any other name is still a concentration camp.

And you are unaware the "reeducation camp" is a sick joke;it has long been used as s eupheism by totalarian left wing regimes? Vietnam ran quite a few of them, for example.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The BBC actually has been caught lying before, iirc. Nothing geopolitical can be taken on faith with the MSM, seriously.

Let's write off the MSM but embrace every story advanced by "hard line" left wing newsites........

Sort of a mirror image/Bizarro version of a Fox News Fanboy.
No difference really, between depening on Fox News as you main news source and something like "Counterpunch" both are B.S. sites driven purely to spread their ideology.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:45 PM   #18
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The ablity of some people not to see evil if it is on the side of the political spectrum they favor is truly incredible.
The "explanations" we are seeing in this thread about China's concentration camps are little different to similar explantaions we got in the 1930's about the Workers Paradise that Uncle Joe was running in the Soviet Union.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:47 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's write off the MSM but embrace every story advanced by "hard line" left wing newsites........

Sort of a mirror image/Bizarro version of a Fox News Fanboy.
No difference really, between depening on Fox News as you main news source and something like "Counterpunch" both are B.S. sites driven purely to spread their ideology.
Counterpuch is not reliable at ALL. Figuring out the real geopolitical situation takes a lot of time and effort, and it's hard to really know for sure. The only "source" I totally trust is this: https://therealnews.com/ And even with them, they could make a mistake. I've just never seen it happen.
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Old 10th April 2019, 03:49 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A Concentration camp any other name is still a concentration camp.

And you are unaware the "reeducation camp" is a sick joke;it has long been used as s eupheism by totalarian left wing regimes? Vietnam ran quite a few of them, for example.
I said it's a torture and brainwashing center of some sort.
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Old 10th April 2019, 05:37 PM   #21
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It sounds straight up Orwellian.

China is all kinds of ******* up.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It sounds straight up Orwellian.

China is all kinds of ******* up.
Yes.

And if America stops being world policeman, it won’t be all the nations singing “kumbaya” , it will be these guys calling the shots.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Yes.

And if America stops being world policeman, it won’t be all the nations singing “kumbaya” , it will be these guys calling the shots.
What's America doing about it?
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are possibly the largest mass detention since the holocaust.


Had you heard of it? As the article points out:
The Big Dog has had a thread running on the subject for months, but from an attacking atheism angle.

China doing what China does.

You'd have thought at least the destruction of ancient artifacts would have attracted some attention - ISIS/Taliban have when they did it.

I saw where one amazing 13th-century mosque had been turned into a carpark.
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Old 11th April 2019, 03:59 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The BBC actually has been caught lying before, iirc.
Examples, please, of deliberate lies.
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Old 11th April 2019, 04:20 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Modern China is bizarre. They want the territory of an empire without the cosmopolitanism of an empire. When has that ever worked?
All empires want that in their expansion period.
Then they grow rich and soft and are in contact with the people they colonise and start to adopt their cultural practices and then they turn cosmopolitan. And then they decline and lose to an empire that is still hungry and has no qualms about being seen as an *******.

Even the Mongols mellowed out in two generations.
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Old 11th April 2019, 04:30 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Examples, please, of deliberate lies.
I find this pretty compelling, but maybe you will not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvjTeuSKTW0
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Old 11th April 2019, 04:33 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Yes.

And if America stops being world policeman, it won’t be all the nations singing “kumbaya” , it will be these guys calling the shots.
I think we should operate under the assumption that they might want to take over the world, but I see not reason to believe for sure that they do. They might want to just be China.
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Old 11th April 2019, 04:59 AM   #29
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Here is the official position of the Xinjiang government on the "detention camps".

Originally Posted by head of Xinjiang government
[...] Based on its own realities, Xinjiang has given equal importance to fighting and preventing terrorism, and sought to combine the fight against violent terrorist crimes with the protection of human rights. On one hand, Xinjiang has put emphasis on strictly countering a small number of violent terrorist crimes according to law, and spared no efforts in protecting the basic human rights of the citizens from the harm of terrorism and extremism. On the other hand, Xinjiang has also stressed addressing the root cause of terrorism, and moved to bring around, educate and save the majority of those who committed petty crimes, through assistance and education, to prevent them from becoming victims of terrorism and extremism.

Today, despite the significant progress Xinjiang has made, countering terrorism and extremism is still a long-standing, complicated and serious issue and calls for high alert. In particular, the four prefectures in southern Xinjiang were threatened by terrorism and seriously influenced by the spread of religious extremism in the past. Some residents there have a limited command of the country's common language and a limited sense and knowledge of the law. They often have difficulties in finding employment due to limited vocational skills. This has led to a low material-basis for residents to live and work there, making them vulnerable to the instigation and coercion of terrorism and extremism. There is still a long way to go for southern Xinjiang to eradicate the environment and soil of terrorism and religious extremism.

Based on the above-mentioned situation, Xinjiang has launched a vocational education and training program according to the law. Its purpose is to get rid of the environment and soil that breeds terrorism and religious extremism and stop violent terrorist activities from happening. [...]
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:09 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Here is the official position of the Xinjiang government on the "detention camps".
"Educate and save" is an interesting euphemism for "torture and brainwash", but ok.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:11 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
"Educate and save" is an interesting euphemism for "torture and brainwash", but ok.

Where did you get the torture bit from? Is that claimed by anyone?
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:21 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Here is the official position of the Xinjiang government on the "detention camps".
Short version: 'be more Chinese'. Like I said, China wants the territory of empire without the cosmopolitanism of empire. That region has been a crossroads of cultures ( literally as well as figuratively) for millennia.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:27 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Short version: 'be more Chinese'. Like I said, China wants the territory of empire without the cosmopolitanism of empire. That region has been a crossroads of cultures ( literally as well as figuratively) for millennia.

It's one thing to teach provincial folks a language they can use for vastly improving their chance at success in life, and a very different thing to force them to not use their ethnic language like the Turks like to do with the Kurds periodically and the Ukrops try to do to the ethnic Russians. Your prejudices say very little about these programs (and I'm not saying that the official story is entirely correct - how should I know).
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:28 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Where did you get the torture bit from? Is that claimed by anyone?
Yeah, people who escaped to Turkey who were put through them. Most of it's dubious MSM reports, but I saw one report somewhere that was REALLY compelling. He was saying it was mostly sleep deprivation, iirc. I really wish I could remember where I read it at. It passed my sniff test. If it was propaganda, it was the best propaganda I've ever encountered.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:30 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Short version: 'be more Chinese'. Like I said, China wants the territory of empire without the cosmopolitanism of empire. That region has been a crossroads of cultures ( literally as well as figuratively) for millennia.
They're dealing with actual radical Muslims who've started tiny wars against the gov of China over there. Not justifying any of the torture or whatever it is, but they are dealing with a difficult situation in that region.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:34 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, people who escaped to Turkey who were put through them. Most of it's dubious MSM reports, but I saw one report somewhere that was REALLY compelling. He was saying it was mostly sleep deprivation, iirc. I really wish I could remember where I read it at. It passed my sniff test. If it was propaganda, it was the best propaganda I've ever encountered.

Try to imagine what it takes for an Uighur to "escape to Turkey". It's not exactly around the corner. He will owe the (pretty well-known) network that brought him there some nice words at least before he joins his brethren in Idlib.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:37 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They're dealing with actual radical Muslims who've started tiny wars against the gov of China over there. Not justifying any of the torture or whatever it is, but they are dealing with a difficult situation in that region.
And the US has encountered a few drug dealers across our southern border. It's dishonest to use that as an excuse to pursue a wide-ranging campaign against a whole ethnic group.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:43 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And the US has encountered a few drug dealers across our southern border. It's dishonest to use that as an excuse to pursue a wide-ranging campaign against a whole ethnic group.
I really don't think the cartels in Mexico are anything at all like if we had, say, southern Florida full of actual Taliban waging war on the US government. .
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:55 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I really don't think the cartels in Mexico are anything at all like if we had, say, southern Florida full of actual Taliban waging war on the US government. .
And I don't think China is above lying about the extent and nature of a problem as cover to do as they please with ethnic and religious minorities.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:55 AM   #40
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8678156.html

Quote:
He said Amnesty had reports from former detainees who said they were forced to attend political re-education lessons and sing political songs. Previous reports have said Muslims were forced to denounce Islam and swear loyalty to the Chinese Communist Party, in addition to being forced to eat pork and drink alcohol – acts forbidden by their religion
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