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Old 11th April 2019, 05:57 AM   #41
kellyb
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And I don't think China is above lying about the extent and nature of a problem as cover to do as they please with ethnic and religious minorities.
Fair enough, but the US gov isn't above lying about things like WMD in Iraq to get us into a long-planned war. I don't trust any of the bastards when it comes to this stuff.
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Old 11th April 2019, 06:09 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post

Oh, now it's three million detained already.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:09 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The ablity of some people not to see evil if it is on the side of the political spectrum they favor is truly incredible.
The "explanations" we are seeing in this thread about China's concentration camps are little different to similar explantaions we got in the 1930's about the Workers Paradise that Uncle Joe was running in the Soviet Union.
This blindness makes me wonder, there have been witness statements from a number of sources...
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:10 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What's America doing about it?
A whole lot of nothing
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:36 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Oh, now it's three million detained already.
They used the words "up to". Growing up, my grandfather taught me to always be skeptical when I heard those words, because one inch is part of "up to one mile" when it comes to advertising law.
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Old 11th April 2019, 11:36 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Fair enough, but the US gov isn't above lying about things like WMD in Iraq to get us into a long-planned war. I don't trust any of the bastards when it comes to this stuff.
It's not just the US government that's saying this. If we are to accept that these allegations are false then you have to assume that all the people who have investigated this are also intentionally spreading falsehoods.
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Old 11th April 2019, 11:57 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's not just the US government that's saying this. If we are to accept that these allegations are false then you have to assume that all the people who have investigated this are also intentionally spreading falsehoods.
I think you're misunderstanding me. That comment was in response to the claim that the Islamic fundamentalists waging war on the gov of China are like the US dealing with cartels in Mexico. And I said it's more like if southern Florida was taken over by the Taliban waging war on the US government. And TM said they (China) might be exaggerating, and I said yes, but we've been known to start wars using concocted evidence of WMDs. So I don't trust any of the superpower governments completely when it comes to them telling the truth about those things.

I KNOW there is at least one large prison/concentration camp over there, and apparently numerous brainwashing facilities, using various forms of at least low grade torture like sleep deprivation to convert Muslims into loving China over Islam. I suspect the Chinese are doing different things at different places experimentally. Nobody knows the numbers of how many people have been "processed" or interned in these places. There's no good evidence to work with to come up with even a remotely close estimate.

I do know the Kissinger crowd (a kind of "government in exile") still has a lot of power in the world, in spite of being out of office officially, and they have a "pivot to Asia" geostrategy they've been working on for a few years. Exaggerating numbers to gain widespread support for troops in the region would make perfect sense from their POV.
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Last edited by kellyb; 11th April 2019 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:01 PM   #48
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'Might be exaggerating'? Oh, no no no. I'm saying China is lying through its brutal, imperialist teeth. It's only because the rest of the world doesn't care about that swath of Asia that they can get away with it.
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:02 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
'Might be exaggerating'? Oh, no no no. I'm saying China is lying through its brutal, imperialist teeth. It's only because the rest of the world doesn't care about that swath of Asia that they can get away with it.
Do you have solid evidence they're lying?
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:08 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you have solid evidence they're lying?
They insisted for years that there were no "detention centers" or "concentration camps" and that this was just malicious baseless lies. Everyone was completely free in Xinjiang and China always respects everyone's rights every-time.

Then in 2018, as a UN report on the situation was being finalized, they suddenly decided to retroactively legalize these camps and started pushing propaganda that they were just normal "reeducation centers" for "common criminals and terrorists".
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:09 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you have solid evidence they're lying?
Body of work. A nation that cracks down on dissent, imprisons (or does worse to) critics, censors information, and rules as a one-party dictatorship is not entitled to 'benefit of the doubt', not even from internet denizens eager to prove their credentials as Best Skeptic aka useful idiots. You may certainly buy into all the propaganda you wish (I'm told there are great people on both sides) but no, that I can't produce video evidence and court testimony doesn't leave honest space for trusting China at its word.
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:11 PM   #52
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It doesn't matter what the Chinese government says: we know the history of oppression in Nepal, and there is no reason to assume the Party has become anything but more effective and brutal.
And, like all forms of oppression, once you've started, you can only get harsher over time.
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:12 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It doesn't matter what the Chinese government says: we know the history of oppression in Nepal, and there is no reason to assume the Party has become anything but more effective and brutal.
And, like all forms of oppression, once you've started, you can only get harsher over time.
Did you mean Tibet?
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:26 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Body of work. A nation that cracks down on dissent, imprisons (or does worse to) critics, censors information, and rules as a one-party dictatorship is not entitled to 'benefit of the doubt', not even from internet denizens eager to prove their credentials as Best Skeptic aka useful idiots. You may certainly buy into all the propaganda you wish (I'm told there are great people on both sides) but no, that I can't produce video evidence and court testimony doesn't leave honest space for trusting China at its word.
I don't trust China, but it could be true that they had violence and small wars break out in the region.

I don't know of any great sources of info on the topic. I think only the Chinese gov knows. I am reasonably certain lots of completely innocent people have been sent to the anti-Islam brainwashing places.
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Last edited by kellyb; 11th April 2019 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:55 PM   #55
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As to the Turkistan Islamic Party I mentioned, the wkipedia article starts like this:

Originally Posted by wikipedia
The Turkistan Islamic Party (TIP, Arabic: الحزب الإسلامي التركستاني‎) or Turkistan Islamic Movement (TIM), formerly known as the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) and other names,[a] is an Islamic extremist organization founded by Uyghur jihadists in western China, considered broadly as a terrorist group. Its stated goals are to establish an independent state called "East Turkestan" in Xinjiang.[18] According to a Chinese report, published in 2002, between 1990 and 2001 the ETIM had committed over 200 acts of terrorism, resulting in at least 162 deaths and over 440 injuries.[19]

Since the September 11 attacks, the group has been designated as a terrorist organization by the European Union,[20] Kyrgyzstan,[21][22] (The Eastern Turkistan Islamic Party, Organization for Freeing Eastern Turkistan, and the Islamic Party of Turkistan were outlawed by Kyrgyzstan's Lenin District Court and its Supreme Court in November 2003.[23][24]) Kazakhstan,[25] Russia,[26] United Arab Emirates,[27][28] the United Kingdom,[29][30] China, the United States,[31] and Pakistan[32] outlawed the group. Its Syrian branch Turkistan Islamic Party in Syria is active in the Syrian Civil War.

As I said, the number of them who reached Syria through Turkey with the help of the usual networks is estimated at around ten thousand people. So there is a very real terrorism problem, and there are claims by those who have used Islamic extremists as their tools all over the world in recent decades that geopolitical rival China has millions of cuddly innocent muslims in detention, while China says that they are dealing with the terrorists separately and these programs are meant to enable the non-extremists to do something better with their lives than blowing themselves up for the goals of criminals at the other end of the world in the name of sky daddy.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:02 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
A whole lot of nothing
Not much we can do, really; The Chinese government has shown it does not give a damn about international opinion.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:05 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Did you mean Tibet?
Yeah, he met Tibet.
Weird thing is I have seen some defenders of China's actions in Tibet here;they see China as freeing the Tibetian people from a theocracy. Without getting into a debate about the Dalai Lama, I suggest that
A.Freeing a people whether they want to be or not is sort of questionable and
B. The regime that China has replaced it with is no better and probably a lot worse.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:28 PM   #58
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Michael Parenti has famously made the heretic case that Tibet is indeed better off now than it was under the Lamas. It's an interesting read.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:42 PM   #59
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yeah, I meant Tibet.

my bad.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:43 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Michael Parenti has famously made the heretic case that Tibet is indeed better off now than it was under the Lamas. It's an interesting read.
The Conquistador made the same argument.
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Old 11th April 2019, 02:32 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
'Might be exaggerating'? Oh, no no no. I'm saying China is lying through its brutal, imperialist teeth. It's only because the rest of the world doesn't care about that swath of Asia that they can get away with it.
They certainly have squatted on Tibet
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Old 11th April 2019, 03:12 PM   #62
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Look on the bright side - people needing organ transplants are going to be very happy.
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Old 11th April 2019, 04:46 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
A whole lot of nothing
Good thing they're the world's policemen, then.
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Old 11th April 2019, 07:39 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Good thing they're the world's policemen, then.
That only applies with countries that either can't fight back, or have no financial importance to USA, which is why we see no action regarding crimes against humanity carried out by Russia, Saudi Arabia or Israel, among others.
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:05 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That only applies with countries that either can't fight back, or have no financial importance to USA, which is why we see no action regarding crimes against humanity carried out by Russia, Saudi Arabia or Israel, among others.


Any parallels between how the US acts as 'world policeman' and how US policemen are reported to act?
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:10 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Any parallels between how the US acts as 'world policeman' and how US policemen are reported to act?
Yes, now that you mention it. Here's one example.
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Old 12th April 2019, 11:17 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Any parallels between how the US acts as 'world policeman' and how US policemen are reported to act?
That would be a great question to ask in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua or Panama
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Old 12th April 2019, 11:23 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
That would be a great question to ask in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua or Panama
Iraq, Libya, E Timor, Vietnam....
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Old 12th April 2019, 11:43 AM   #69
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If we're going historical you can add Iran and the Philippines to places the US wronged. China we did badly but not so badly as several others.
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