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Old 9th August 2022, 02:29 PM   #1841
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would bet most people here deny that traditional view of free will
Somewhere along the line somebody decided it would be a great "gotcha" argument to pretend that all naturalists were determinists and did not believe in free will. Here we see that straw man again being knocked around.
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Old 9th August 2022, 02:33 PM   #1842
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
"Just because it's hard to prosecute the person that fired the bullet that hurt you, is not grounds to criminalize shooting in the air for people that did not hurt you."

Do you agree with that statement?
Excellent analogy.
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Old 9th August 2022, 03:03 PM   #1843
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
"Just because it's hard to prosecute the person that fired the bullet that hurt you, is not grounds to criminalize shooting in the air for people that did not hurt you."

Do you agree with that statement?
Might I suggest ignoring (or Ignoring) the childish, pseudo-libertarian trolling?
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Old 9th August 2022, 03:12 PM   #1844
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Excellent analogy.
I agree. very good analogy.
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Old 9th August 2022, 03:13 PM   #1845
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
From https://jessica.substack.com/p/abortion-every-day-8822#details
Quote:
This is distressing: A Nebraska woman is facing felony charges for helping her teenage daughter obtain an abortion earlier this year. Her daughter, who was 17 years-old at the time and 22 weeks pregnant (abortion is illegal in the state after 20 weeks), is also being charged. She will be tried as an adult. Iím looking to get more details on the case, but a couple of noteworthy items: Law enforcement not only went through the girlís medical records, but got a warrant for her Facebook messages. Thatís where the mother and daughter allegedly talked about how to properly take abortion medicationóthe prosecutor is also using a message where the teen expressed not wanting to be pregnant as evidence.
'
Much better and informative piece on that:
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/08/teens-jailing-shows-exactly-how-facebook-will-help-anti-abortion-states/

Quote:
[...]

What happened?
According to court documents, Burgess was 28 weeks pregnant when her mother, Jessica Burgess (who is also being charged), helped her mail-order abortion pills in April to terminate the pregnancy.


An abortion at 28 weeks breaks Nebraska law, which hasn't changed since the Dobbs decision, but prevents abortion after 20 weeks.


McBride says his investigation started when he learned that the mother and daughter had buried a child after claiming the baby was stillborn. Immediately, McBride sought medical records to find out when Celeste miscarried, and when he interviewed the teen about the day of her miscarriage, he noticed that she consulted her Facebook Messenger app to determine the exact date.


This led McBride to believe that there was more evidence in the case stored on Facebook owner Meta's servers. So, even though the final autopsy report said the cause of the baby's death was undetermined, McBride still sought evidence to confirm that Celeste had an abortion. He says in his affidavit that Celeste sharing her messages with him was a turning point that led him to believe that "there will be more messages."


His request to Meta cited suspicions that the tech company was keeping evidence of a crime under Prohibited Acts with Skeletal Remains, not abortion. To support his case, he sought every photo of mother and daughter, plus every photo they'd been tagged in, all their private messages, and location data via their IP logs.
[...]
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Old 9th August 2022, 03:22 PM   #1846
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This is why I never post on my FB page or twitter. I never post anything anywhere I don't want the entire world to see. Some people should learn this.
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Old 9th August 2022, 04:01 PM   #1847
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This is why I never post on my FB page or twitter. I never post anything anywhere I don't want the entire world to see. Some people should learn this.
Exactly right. I learned early on in my career that ANY communications system can be tapped and/or monitored. ANY.

If you stick with that assumption, you won't be surprised when your communications ARE tapped or monitored. Lawfully or not.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:12 PM   #1848
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Just because something is hard to prosecute the person that hurt you is not grounds to criminalize those who did not hurt you
Do you, though? What is criminalized is not the absence of a vaccination, but the social interaction done by those who are unvaccinated. You can argue that the handicap here is so great that it amounts to the same thing, but tantamount does not equal "the same."
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:16 PM   #1849
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More to the point, there's well established justification to criminalize some acts that are unacceptably risky to others. BobTheCoward may wish that people could endanger fellow citizens all they want and only risk that plays out badly and can be traced back to them matters. But there's no basis to reject it except that he doesn't personally agree. Next: you can't prohibit pollution. If someone gets harmed by pollution they can always trace the exact molecule that did it to the company that supplied it and sue them. If they still exist. That will surely be adequate deterrent.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:20 PM   #1850
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
More to the point, there's well established justification to criminalize some acts that are unacceptably risky to others. BobTheCoward may wish that people could endanger fellow citizens all they want and only risk that plays out badly and can be traced back to them matters. But there's no basis to reject it except that he doesn't personally agree. Next: you can't prohibit pollution. If someone gets harmed by pollution they can always trace the exact molecule that did it to the company that supplied it and sue them. If they still exist. That will surely be adequate deterrent.
Deleted....replying why you are incorrect will just go off topic.

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Old 9th August 2022, 06:52 PM   #1851
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With the gunshot example, that shows that government constrain the actions of others against their will all the time. Arguing that anti abortion laws constrain the actions of the mother just doesn't amount to much if you believe the fetus has a soul and it is murder.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:25 PM   #1852
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
With the gunshot example, that shows that government constrain the actions of others against their will all the time. Arguing that anti abortion laws constrain the actions of the mother just doesn't amount to much if you believe the fetus has a soul and it is murder.
No, it shows that the government has a right, no a duty to protect society from indiscriminate reckless behavior or indifference. It is not analogous to a woman carrying a fetus for 9 months and delivering it.

It's one thing to say you must get a shot or wear a mask or not fire a gun recklessly. It's another thing entirely to demand that a female endanger herself and put her in a position to damage the rest of her life for a clump of cells.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:40 PM   #1853
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, it shows that the government has a right, no a duty to protect society from indiscriminate reckless behavior or indifference. It is not analogous to a woman carrying a fetus for 9 months and delivering it.

It's one thing to say you must get a shot or wear a mask or not fire a gun recklessly. It's another thing entirely to demand that a female endanger herself and put her in a position to damage the rest of her life for a clump of cells.
I don't know how to talk about this. You and I, and most here, agree it is a clump of cells. But we are in the current situation because a lot of people don't think it is a clump of cells. So while me pointing out that they don't think it is a clump of cells isn't making a logical argument, it also means it isn't tackling the issue that they are driving and winning (ish) the outcome.
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Old Yesterday, 06:05 AM   #1854
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
that shows that government constrain the actions of others against their will all the time.
Otherwise known as "laws". What significant conclusion can you draw from "laws exist"? Is your argument there truly "some things are prohibited, so why object to this being prohibited?"
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Old Yesterday, 06:48 AM   #1855
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Somewhere along the line somebody decided it would be a great "gotcha" argument to pretend that all naturalists were determinists and did not believe in free will. Here we see that straw man again being knocked around.
I mean, questioning the idea of absolute free will is arguably the best indicator that a person is capable of abstract thought. These sorts of criticisms are kind of a giveaway.
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Old Yesterday, 07:04 AM   #1856
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Somewhere along the line somebody decided it would be a great "gotcha" argument to pretend that all naturalists were determinists and did not believe in free will. Here we see that straw man again being knocked around.
This is only an issue if your idea of free will is incompatible with determinism. Not all notions of free will are incompatible with it.
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Old Yesterday, 08:31 AM   #1857
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
This is only an issue if your idea of free will is incompatible with determinism. Not all notions of free will are incompatible with it.
But most are. The kind of determinism you're talking about is known as soft determinism. That isn't what Bob was referring to wasn't soft determinism.
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Old Yesterday, 08:52 AM   #1858
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't know how to talk about this. You and I, and most here, agree it is a clump of cells. But we are in the current situation because a lot of people don't think it is a clump of cells. So while me pointing out that they don't think it is a clump of cells isn't making a logical argument, it also means it isn't tackling the issue that they are driving and winning (ish) the outcome.
Are they winning? They certainly got into the game with Dobbs. But they got crushed in Kansas last week. This war is nowhere near over.
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Old Yesterday, 09:00 AM   #1859
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Are they winning? They certainly got into the game with Dobbs. But they got crushed in Kansas last week. This war is nowhere near over.
...which is why I wrote "(ish)"
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Old Today, 01:06 AM   #1860
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Are they winning? They certainly got into the game with Dobbs. But they got crushed in Kansas last week. This war is nowhere near over.
I think the Republicans learned their lesson; Democracy is Bad.
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Old Today, 05:25 AM   #1861
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I think the Republicans learned their lesson; Democracy is Bad.
Yeah I doubt any other state is going to put abortion to a popular vote again.
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