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View Poll Results: Are you willing to work for free if the goods and services are free?
Yes 17 34.00%
No 24 48.00%
I don't know 9 18.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28th June 2020, 03:17 AM   #1361
Jack by the hedge
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
People will realize that they have to work if they ought to have free goods in the market, i am not worry about that. In case they forget medias and the community will tell them.
People will realise that most people have to work but it no longer makes a significant difference if they do. So some people just won't work at all and others will work less. Media propaganda might encourage some to work harder but in big anonymous cities there is no community which knows what you're doing. Go off "to work" in the morning, drive to another town in your free car and do whatever you like. If anyone asks why you aren't working, tell them you work nights.

"I am not worry about that" seems to sum up your plan perfectly.
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:03 AM   #1362
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
People will realize that they have to work if they ought to have free goods in the market, i am not worry about that. In case they forget medias and the community will tell them.
Back to the community nonsense again. My community, and surrounding area is a million strong. When my Maserati needed a new alternator, I had to take it to the far side of town. Would they have known me? No. Did they know if I worked? No, all they knew was that my money was good, and they fixed it up and got me on my way.

Let's say we were in a smaller neighborhood. Fine. Let's say that shop knew me, hell, everyone in town knew me and knew I was freeloading, somehow. I could just take it to another town where they don't know me. Since you've said there is ZERO tracking, the community I'm raiding doesn't know me and can't know me.

Also, the best goods don't make it to the market. Why would they? Were I running a ranch, I'd save the best beef and directly trade that for the best quality products someone else was saving up for either direct trade or self consumption. The haves will have and the nots will not.
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:12 AM   #1363
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If there's any risk of shortages in my town, we can agree to do most of our provisioning at stores in the neighbouring towns. That way there will still be plenty in our stores for those less able to travel and the shortages will become somebody else's problem.

Propaganda aimed at shaming guilty towns not to do that will just give others the same idea.
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:16 AM   #1364
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
People will realise that most people have to work but it no longer makes a significant difference if they do. So some people just won't work at all and others will work less. Media propaganda might encourage some to work harder but in big anonymous cities there is no community which knows what you're doing. Go off "to work" in the morning, drive to another town in your free car and do whatever you like. If anyone asks why you aren't working, tell them you work nights.

"I am not worry about that" seems to sum up your plan perfectly.
It's clear, though, that in the world proposed there will be no room for the attitude "none of your business."
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Old 28th June 2020, 06:55 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
People will realize that they have to work if they ought to have free goods in the market, i am not worry about that. In case they forget medias and the community will tell them.
That isn't an answer. What if John sees the adverts in the media and just ignores them? What if he drives to the next town over to "shop"?

I live in a city of around 330000 people and I don't even know the people I live with to do more than say hello to. I recently bumped into a guy in the hall who I thought must have just moved in and it turned out he'd lived there about a year.

How are ANY of these people to know whether I work or not? If I spend all day wandering around town and having a pint in the pub, who is to say I don't work nights?

You haven't explained how your system would actually STOP any of these people refusing to work, you've just said they would be reminded to and would do it. I hate to break it to you Pollyanna, but people aren't like that.

I actually don't mind my job, but if I could I'd want to be a restaurant or film critic. What would happen to restaurants in your post money world? How would they continue to function?
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:38 AM   #1366
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
... I actually don't mind my job, but if I could I'd want to be a restaurant or film critic. What would happen to restaurants in your post money world? How would they continue to function?
That's a good case to consider. Serving in restaurants is the cliché employment of resting actors. They don't want to do that work, they just need the money. In Gaetan-world they don't need money at all so they don't have to do the work.

Maybe in Gaetan restaurants you go to the kitchen and collect your own food and drink. Not the end of the world, I suppose, but a potential hygiene problem I guess. Maybe you have to do your own cooking. That would be more of a problem.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:59 AM   #1367
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Back to the community nonsense again. My community, and surrounding area is a million strong. When my Maserati needed a new alternator, I had to take it to the far side of town. Would they have known me? No. Did they know if I worked? No, all they knew was that my money was good, and they fixed it up and got me on my way.

Let's say we were in a smaller neighborhood. Fine. Let's say that shop knew me, hell, everyone in town knew me and knew I was freeloading, somehow. I could just take it to another town where they don't know me. Since you've said there is ZERO tracking, the community I'm raiding doesn't know me and can't know me.

Also, the best goods don't make it to the market. Why would they? Were I running a ranch, I'd save the best beef and directly trade that for the best quality products someone else was saving up for either direct trade or self consumption. The haves will have and the nots will not.
But in the Gaetan world none of the having and having not will be public. People will hide it from the legions of busybodies who are necessary to make it work, or find a way to justify their exception, so those who cultivate and even brag about their oblivious ignorance will be able to say it doesn't exist at all. They, of course, will not be the power holders, but the publicists. The real holders of power always know what's real.

There will be a nice industry (get in on the ground floor now!) of paint, fake dents and accessories to make your Maserati look like a taxicab.

In the proposed economy the real work will be done by slaves, paid only with slogans, while armies of spies will be trivially bribed into service by liars with the mentality of black-bumper Mennonites who rule by intimidation.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:18 AM   #1368
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Actually I've just thought of something. My job involves the London Congestion Charge.

If you're unfamiliar with it, it's a charge that was brought in to cut down on congestion and pollution in the centre of London. It works by making people pay to drive into the centre, and fines those who don't. It's working rather well.

What happens if we abolish money? Now anyone can drive wherever without paying! The pollution levels will be through the roof!
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:23 AM   #1369
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Don't worry, "the community" will let drivers know there are too many of them and some of the drivers will voluntarily leave.
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Old 28th June 2020, 10:21 AM   #1370
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Don't worry, "the community" will let drivers know there are too many of them and some of the drivers will voluntarily leave.
I suspect a few members of "the community" will be carrying baseball bats and the like, but the use might depend on what useful items the drivers of those cars happen to have in their cars. Of course everything is free to grab anyway, but the driver is also free not to come back with more goodies, so given the right technique, the "community" should be in a good position to operate a protection racket powered by bribery. O brave new world...
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:12 PM   #1371
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According to the pool 34% will agree to work, 48% prefer the money system, don't mean they won't work. I am not worry.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:22 PM   #1372
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But what would your system do to stop people refusing to work?

See this is the problem with discussing things with you gaetan, you refuse to address questions.

You would convince more people, or indeed any people, by refuting the arguments against your idea. It really isnt hard to do.

"My system will stop people from taking without work by...."
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:33 PM   #1373
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
But what would your system do to stop people refusing to work?
No one will be forced to work, it is voluntary work. It is under the responsibility of every one to do his part for the community, you say i don't answer question, false, i answered a lot of questions.
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Old 28th June 2020, 01:54 PM   #1374
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
No one will be forced to work, it is voluntary work. It is under the responsibility of every one to do his part for the community, you say i don't answer question, false, i answered a lot of questions.
So you would be OK if I choose to not work at all and take a sparkling new car and a mansion to live in and just sit there watching TV and drinking beer, right?
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Old 28th June 2020, 02:41 PM   #1375
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
No one will be forced to work, it is voluntary work. It is under the responsibility of every one to do his part for the community, you say i don't answer question, false, i answered a lot of questions.
Ok so what happens if everyone decides not to work?

You have responded to questions but you havent answered them.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:19 PM   #1376
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
No one will be forced to work, it is voluntary work. It is under the responsibility of every one to do his part for the community, you say i don't answer question, false, i answered a lot of questions.
It is true that you respond to questions (good non-trolling behavior at least) but alas a response is not necessarily an answer.

You have not come up with a satisfactory answer to determine how those who prefer not to do their part for the community, or those whose opinion of what that part is differs from that of the community, will be handled.
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Old 28th June 2020, 03:31 PM   #1377
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
According to the pool 34% will agree to work
That doesn't mean they think your idea would work.

Your offer is basically "would you agree to keep doing your current job for infinite pay?" If anyone is willing to suspend their disbelief and pretend such a system could work, why not say yes? That's obviously a great deal. An infinite pay rise. All you have to do is promise to keep working. The only people who should say no are those who already have as much as they will ever need and no longer want to work.

So the really interesting point is this: since around 16% of people are old enough to have retired, why did only 34% agree to work? Why didn't 84% agree to work?

It's because people can perfectly well see your idea would be a disaster. You have no way to make people stick to their promise. They have no incentive to do more than the absolute minimum work expected of them, and only the threat of disapproval to make them do any work at all.

Some people will work, some people will not. The ones who work will resent the shirkers or feel like fools for doing all the work and some will just stop. Shortages will appear and people will hoard supplies if they can. The shops will quickly empty of food and goods and a disorderly collapse will probably take a matter of days.

It's almost as if you have no experience of real human beings.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:30 PM   #1378
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Ok so what happens if everyone decides not to work?
Then there won't be product in markets, other easy question.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:58 PM   #1379
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Then there won't be product in markets, other easy question.
Actually not so easy, since it would take time before stocks ran out. Just as a total stoppage in a supply chain doesn't make current stock suddenly vanish, just a minor disruption in a supply chain can result in major shortages. Particularly if people are aware of the disruption and horde as a result.

So at what point does the number of people working drop below that required to support there being "product in markets"?
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Old 28th June 2020, 08:21 PM   #1380
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Then there won't be product in markets, other easy question.
An easy and un-useful answer to a question. I would ask a slightly more complicated question. What if a significant number (not all) of people decide not to work or not to do the work that some nameless social force deems necessary? Shortages will occur, but not immediately. Solutions may also occur, but not immediately.

So my question really is "how will you keep large numbers of people from starving to death while your system is teething?
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:24 AM   #1381
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Then there won't be product in markets, other easy question.
Ok perhaps I should have been more clear. What will your system do to prevent this from happening?
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:43 AM   #1382
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Actually I've just thought of something. My job involves the London Congestion Charge.

If you're unfamiliar with it, it's a charge that was brought in to cut down on congestion and pollution in the centre of London. It works by making people pay to drive into the centre, and fines those who don't. It's working rather well.

What happens if we abolish money? Now anyone can drive wherever without paying! The pollution levels will be through the roof!
You are not factoring in the dead. Gaetans plans gets rid of more people than Thanos.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:44 AM   #1383
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
So my question really is "how will you keep large numbers of people from starving to death while your system is teething?

Feature, not a bug. Doesn't need addressing. Those who get culled weren't doing society any good anyhow.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:46 AM   #1384
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Then there won't be product in markets, other easy question.
With no incentive to work, it's a feedback loop that kills everyone. Your plan in the eradication of the human race, and you don't blink an eye over it.
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:14 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Then there won't be product in markets, other easy question.
Okay. Another easy question: There's nothing in the shops - what are you going to eat?
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:42 PM   #1386
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Okay. Another easy question: There's nothing in the shops - what are you going to eat?
Not what, who.
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:48 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Not what, who.
Only if you shop at ALDI. I shop at Whole Foods so always ask “whom”.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:28 PM   #1388
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
According to the pool 34% will agree to work, 48% prefer the money system, don't mean they won't work. I am not worry.
You do know that there's nothing preventing people from working "for free" if they are given goods and services "for free" right now? There's no need to abolish money and it would in fact only complicate things.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:48 AM   #1389
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Only if you shop at ALDI. I shop at Whole Foods so always ask “whom”.
Ever since this covid thing, I've not been inside a grocery store. I pull up, tell the grocer I've arrived, open my trunk and my foodstuff is put in my trunk. All under the watchful eye of my pitty. Which is what clued me into Gaetan's understanding. Neither he or my dog understand all of the transactions that have to take place for that to happen. I may also not understand, or know all of the transactions, but at least I understand there are transactions that must take place for it to happen.

That being said, depending on the construction, Whom shall we eat might be the correct level of posh shopping at whole foods. Especially if you are eating vegan, or a cross-fitter.
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Old 30th June 2020, 03:27 PM   #1390
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Ever since this covid thing, I've not been inside a grocery store. I pull up, tell the grocer I've arrived, open my trunk and my foodstuff is put in my trunk. All under the watchful eye of my pitty. Which is what clued me into Gaetan's understanding. Neither he or my dog understand all of the transactions that have to take place for that to happen. I may also not understand, or know all of the transactions, but at least I understand there are transactions that must take place for it to happen.

That being said, depending on the construction, Whom shall we eat might be the correct level of posh shopping at whole foods. Especially if you are eating vegan, or a cross-fitter.
The last bit is how Jesus got those great abs.
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Old 30th June 2020, 03:44 PM   #1391
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
The last bit is how Jesus got those great abs.
We should worship him. Why? Because he was temporarily inconvenienced.

This is one of the things that bothers me about the christian faith.

On the one hand, they claims he died for our "sins". On the other hand, they claim a living jesus.

When one pokes at that, the best one will get is "mysterious ways" as if it explains anything.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:48 PM   #1392
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
We should worship him. Why? Because he was temporarily inconvenienced.

This is one of the things that bothers me about the christian faith.

On the one hand, they claims he died for our "sins". On the other hand, they claim a living jesus.

When one pokes at that, the best one will get is "mysterious ways" as if it explains anything.
Oh FFS. Does the joke need explaining?

Q. How Did Jesus get such great abs?
A. Cross-fit
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Old Yesterday, 08:08 AM   #1393
Leftus
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Oh FFS. Does the joke need explaining?

Q. How Did Jesus get such great abs?
A. Cross-fit
and here I was thinking that Cross-fit was becoming it's own religion.
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