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Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , US-Israel relations

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Old 15th May 2018, 11:12 AM   #201
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And if 2 state is dead, what is your solution that does not involve Israel commiting suicide.
And please don't start in with the "Secular Palestinian State" nonsense. That has about as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell, Last time I looked, most of the current Palestinian leadership seems to favor a Islamic Republic....
The only alternative to a 2 state solution is what is going on now going on forever.
And yes, I think most proposols for a one state solution are just code words and window dressing for the destruction of Israel.

the tragedy is that neither Bibi or Hamas want a two state solution.
Well mostly that would be ethnic cleansing or formalizing the apartheid state.

Believe what you want there are simply no tenable two state solutions anymore, you think that Israel is going to give up the settlements? Of course not the conquest is done and over, pretending otherwise isn't going to change anything.

What do you think can actually be done?
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:54 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I am not saying that Israeli settlers in the West Bank should be deprived of their Israeli citizenship. They should be free to travel back to Israel if they so desire, for example to participate - legally now - in the development of the vast Negev desert.

I am saying they should be granted Palestinian residency when a Palestinian state is created (if that happens some day, I am not sure about this too), so they are not massively expelled when the day comes.
Do you think that Jews under the authority of a Palestinian state would actually receive full and effective protection of the Palestinian state against Palestinians who want to harm them?

Because I don't. I think that's simply delusional. The Palestinian state will simply look the other way in regards to violence against Jews.

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There is a great risk that a political solution imposed though force (rather than international law and justice), with, for example, a micro Palestinian state with water restrictions and the best land for settlers, and lots of restrictions for inhabitants of the Gaza strip will lead to persistent violence (this is basically the situation we have now).
Political solutions imposed through force are what normally end wars, not international law and justice. Justice is nice if you can get it, but force is what actually produces peace. History is pretty clear on this.
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:57 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Political solutions imposed through force are what normally end wars, not international law and justice. Justice is nice if you can get it, but force is what actually produces peace. History is pretty clear on this.
Exactly killing all the men women and boys and keeping the girls as rape slaves was effective last time, they really should go with the classics.
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Old 15th May 2018, 12:26 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly killing all the men women and boys and keeping the girls as rape slaves was effective last time, they really should go with the classics.
Why do so many people confuse describing how things are with advocating for how things should be?
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Old 15th May 2018, 02:34 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you think that Jews under the authority of a Palestinian state would actually receive full and effective protection of the Palestinian state against Palestinians who want to harm them?

Because I don't. I think that's simply delusional. The Palestinian state will simply look the other way in regards to violence against Jews.
...
This issue (protection of the Jewish minority) is important and should probably be discussed with the Palestinians before any final peace deal, but I think one can be reasonably optimistic because the Palestinian Authority (with people like president Mahmoud Abbas and top negotiator Saeb Erekat) seem relatively moderate (with lots of international contacts and relations) and civilized. There are Palestinians working in Israel, Palestinians working in Israeli settlements, there is an Arab minority in Israel, so Jews and Arabs are to some extent used to working together. Perhaps the Palestinians should create a special ministry of protection of religious minorities (?). If Palestinians behaved badly, they would face massive international pressure, and probably cuts in international aid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...o_Palestinians . I assume that, if Palestinians got their state (with normal rights), the animosity towards the Jews would go down substantially, it would probably make a HUGE difference. The idea and mentality that Arabs are sub-human barbarians who cannot be trusted while Jews are responsible adults is one of the things that need to change; we saw recently about 60 relatively peaceful demonstrators massacred at the Gaza border by Israelis, and not the other way around.

If rights of the Jewish minority are not correctly respected, sending UN peacekeepers, Blue Helmets in Palestine might be a last resort.

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Old 15th May 2018, 03:21 PM   #206
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Boris the Foreign Minister sprinted out of the Commons Chamber as the Labour Shadow minister stepped up to ask and emergency question.
Rather than face the Chamber and explain the Governments position on the matter he literally ran out and left it to a Junior Minister.

A complete disgrace.
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Old 15th May 2018, 03:26 PM   #207
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Netanyahu is beating the drum that there can be no peace not based on the truth, that truth being that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and always has been. On and on, the same line: "The Truth!"

Depends on what your definition of "is" is, in this case. Spiritually, yes. Politically, factually incorrect, bigly, and this is the supposed "truth" relating to the placement of a political entity. Oops. So the only way he is right is on the basis of religious dogma. Apart from the rather important issue of exactly how God might wish to order events in this day and age to make such an eventuality come about, there is the idea that one can go from divine will to human action without the supposed omniscience wielded by the maker of such truths. That would seem like a big requirement before proceeding to stomp. Regardless, clearly the idea is to make biblical Israel happen via incremental fait accompli, facts on the ground. By force, then.

Religious dicta, imposed by force, because true. Sounds familiar. Tel Aviv/Jerusalem has just joined Tehran and Riyadh in declaring itself not part of the modern world, and the rule of law anathema. Nice move, Bibi. The consequences of such loud precedent may come due in ways one never hoped for, drenched in dripping irony.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:34 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This issue (protection of the Jewish minority) is important and should probably be discussed with the Palestinians before any final peace deal, but I think one can be reasonably optimistic because the Palestinian Authority (with people like president Mahmoud Abbas and top negotiator Saeb Erekat) seem relatively moderate (with lots of international contacts and relations) and civilized.
If they seem that way to you, then you haven't been paying close attention. The PA regularly pays the families of terrorists a reward for the terrorism that their relative committed. The regularly indoctrinate children with Jew-hatred and messages of violence. They are only "moderate" in comparison to Hamas. Yes, they'll act civilized when talking to westerners, but it's an act.

Quote:
There are Palestinians working in Israel, Palestinians working in Israeli settlements, there is an Arab minority in Israel, so Jews and Arabs are to some extent used to working together. Perhaps the Palestinians should create a special ministry of protection of religious minorities (?).
Make the foxes guard the henhouse? That's delusional. Yes, a lot of Palestinians would have no problem living and working next to Jews. But there are a lot of radicals, and the radicals have the power. Palestinians who want peace are not in a position to stop the radicals.

Quote:
If Palestinians behaved badly, they would face massive international pressure, and probably cuts in international aid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...o_Palestinians .
History contradicts you. They already behave badly, on a regular basis, and have faced little consequence.

Quote:
I assume that, if Palestinians got their state (with normal rights), the animosity towards the Jews would go down substantially, it would probably make a HUGE difference.
This is also delusional. The enmity of the average Palestinian might go down, but that won't matter. The radicals are in charge. And their animosity can never go down, because it forms the entire basis for the power of those radicals. They aren't going to give it up.

Quote:
The idea and mentality that Arabs are sub-human barbarians who cannot be trusted while Jews are responsible adults is one of the things that need to change;
That's not what I'm saying at all. But culture and institutions matter. And the culture and institutions of the Palestinians are dominated by the radicals, who want to kill all the Jews. Decades of indoctrination have an effect. That's not sub-human, that is (sadly) very human.

And yes, the Israelis are better than that. They have the capability to kill far more Palestinians than they do. Given the nature of the threat, they are actually quite restrained. Is it because they're better people? Perhaps not. But they absolutely do have a better culture and better institutions.

Quote:
we saw recently about 60 relatively peaceful demonstrators massacred at the Gaza border by Israelis, and not the other way around.
What you mean "we", kemosabe?

What I saw was an effort to invade a sovereign nation using protesters as cover, and most of the resulting dead being members of Hamas (which is a terrorist organization). The fact that the casualty toll was lopsided is a result of a huge power disparity, and NOT because of peaceful intentions on the part of Palestinians. But being weak isn't a virtue, and being strong isn't a sin.

Quote:
If rights of the Jewish minority are not correctly respected, sending UN peacekeepers, Blue Helmets in Palestine might be a last resort.
This is perhaps the greatest delusion of all. The blue helmets have failed time and time again to stop massacres. In fact, I can't think of a single actual success on this front. Why on earth should Jews trust the UN to protect them?
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:56 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Netanyahu is beating the drum that there can be no peace not based on the truth, that truth being that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and always has been. On and on, the same line: "The Truth!"

Depends on what your definition of "is" is, in this case. Spiritually, yes. Politically, factually incorrect, bigly, and this is the supposed "truth" relating to the placement of a political entity. Oops. So the only way he is right is on the basis of religious dogma. Apart from the rather important issue of exactly how God might wish to order events in this day and age to make such an eventuality come about, there is the idea that one can go from divine will to human action without the supposed omniscience wielded by the maker of such truths. That would seem like a big requirement before proceeding to stomp. Regardless, clearly the idea is to make biblical Israel happen via incremental fait accompli, facts on the ground. By force, then.

Religious dicta, imposed by force, because true. Sounds familiar. Tel Aviv/Jerusalem has just joined Tehran and Riyadh in declaring itself not part of the modern world, and the rule of law anathema. Nice move, Bibi. The consequences of such loud precedent may come due in ways one never hoped for, drenched in dripping irony.
I would sat that Tehran and the HAMAS leadership are not exactly 21st Century either.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:58 PM   #210
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Quote:
What I saw was an effort to invade a sovereign nation using protesters as cover, and most of the resulting dead being members of Hamas (which is a terrorist organization). The fact that the casualty toll was lopsided is a result of a huge power disparity, and NOT because of peaceful intentions on the part of Palestinians. But being weak isn't a virtue, and being strong isn't a sin.
Problem is that the Sovereign Nation is trying to rule another Nation. What do you expect?
I have no love for HAMAS but I can't see things is simple black and white terms. Your whole Soverign Nation argument falls down on the point that Israel more or less controls Gaza.
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Old 15th May 2018, 06:02 PM   #211
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I wish I could see the Israel Palestinian conflict in the black and white terms like Ziggurat and Hflordas) that so many on both sides of the debate see it. But I just can't.
HAMAS and Bibi feed off of each other. That is the tragedy.
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Old 15th May 2018, 06:11 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is that the Sovereign Nation is trying to rule another Nation.
Gaza hardly deserves the designation of "nation", and what Israel is trying to do can hardly be called ruling it.

Quote:
What do you expect?
I expect Hamas to continue to try to kill Jews with no regard for the welfare of the Palestinians. I also expect the Palestinians to continue to allow themselves to be exploited to prolong a conflict that would have ended decades ago if they had followed Gandhi's example.

Quote:
I have no love for HAMAS but I can't see things is simple black and white terms. Your whole Soverign Nation argument falls down on the point that Israel more or less controls Gaza.
Try "less". And what exactly do you imagine Hamas would have done had Israel let them breach the border? Start farming? Yes, there are subtleties to the conflict, but this wasn't a peaceful protest. This was an attempted attack. That's pretty damn clear.
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Old 15th May 2018, 07:01 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
.

Believe what you want there are simply no tenable two state solutions anymore, you think that Israel is going to give up the settlements? Of course not the conquest is done and over, pretending otherwise isn't going to change anything.

What do you think can actually be done?
I'm sure your One Palestinian State "solution" will go over beautifully. Perhaps almost as well as the current situation... if your phenomenally lucky.
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Old 15th May 2018, 08:11 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
...
What I saw was an effort to invade a sovereign nation using protesters as cover, and most of the resulting dead being members of Hamas (which is a terrorist organization). The fact that the casualty toll was lopsided is a result of a huge power disparity, and NOT because of peaceful intentions on the part of Palestinians. ...
I would like to quote National Public Radio (are you sure you're not reading Fox News too much?):
Quote:
With 60 Killed In Gaza, U.N. Rights Commissioner Criticizes Israel
One day after Israeli forces fired on protesters and killed 60 Palestinians along the Gaza border, the U.N.'s human rights commissioner says that those who were shot included women, children, journalists, first responders and bystanders.

"We condemn the appalling, deadly violence in Gaza yesterday," said Rupert Colville, spokesperson for the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights.

While acknowledging that some Palestinian demonstrators tried to damage the barbed wire fence that separates Gaza from Israel, Colville said that in the commissioner's view, attempts to cross or damage a fence "do not amount to a threat to life or serious injury and are not sufficient grounds for the use of live ammunition."

Lethal force, he said, should only be a measure of last resort.
( https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ticizes-israel )
It seems that none of the Palestinian demonstrators actually crossed into Israeli territory. Yet, about 60 were brutally killed. Isn't that barbaric and excessive? It would seem the barbarians are not on the side you think. The Palestinians may have a right to resistance, like we in Belgium had a right to resist when we were invaded by Germans in 1914 and 1940. Your philosophy, according to which problems get solved through violence sound strangely like Nazism to me. Do you sometimes think about the number of injured who are left behind? As explained in this article (in French): https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/pa...e_2753193.html , many Palestinians took great risks (they knew it was dangerous, they had been warned) because they feel desperate, living in extreme poverty in what is sometimes describe as the world’s largest open-air prison: https://www.nrc.no/news/2018/april/g...en-air-prison/ with no hope, no decent future.
So I think what responsible statespeople should do is normalize their situation, give them a normal life in a normal state (and this should not prevent Israel from defending themselves when it is really necessary). But this is obviously not what Donald Trump is talking about in his rallies, he doesn't care about that (but I think he should).
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:12 AM   #215
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I think if I was a Palestinian I would be a bit upset about it all. They are not treated like intelligent human beings. Part of the trouble has been their military incompetence which does not apply in the same way to Russia, or Iran, or even Turkey. The only feasible solution would be a two state solution, but this is opposed by Netanyahu, and by people like Arafat who always insisted on a one state solution. To my mind there was some progress at the Camp David meeting but it all just ended in endless negotiation and then endless war. The United Nations is a useless organisation.

There is a bit of waffle about the two state solution at this website:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...u-need-to-know

Quote:
Can it still happen?

For years, international diplomats, Palestinians and some Israelis have been warning that time is running out as Israel’s continued settlement expansion swallows up land that would become part of Palestine. Many Palestinians and some Israelis now say the line has already been crossed and the two-state solution is impossible; privately many diplomats agree.

What is Trump’s view?

During his election campaign, Donald Trump pledged to move the US embassy to Jerusalem, a potentially explosive move as it would signal that the US considered the city to be Israel’s capital. The president-elect has also suggested that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict simply may not be a priority for his administration.

He has appointed as US ambassador to Israel David Friedman, a fervent opponent of a two-state solution, a big supporter of settlement expansion and a vocal champion of an undivided Jerusalem as Israel’s “eternal capital”.

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Old 16th May 2018, 05:26 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Coming to the table to negotiate is not necessarily useful if there is not some degree of agreement between the parties about the decisions that will need to be made.

The solution of the Israel-Palestine conflict is actually (in my opinion) very simple (and I am surprised some people sometimes describe it as difficult to solve): Israel just need to apply all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions, which are all fairly moderate and balanced, otherwise they would have been vetoed by the US (or possibly some other country).

All Israeli military and police forces should evacuate East Jerusalem and the West Bank (Israeli citizens who are living there legally could be given automatically resident status in Palestine, once the state of Palestine is created and recognized). I also think it would be a good think that Gaza becomes a second Palestinian state, with total and normal freedom of movement.

Finally, Israel could receive a few things that they like too: they could buy the part of Golan they occupy since 1967 to Syria, which needs money for its reconstruction. And new generations of young Arabs (and Iranians) should be taught and explained in school the very serious persecutions endured by the European Jews during World War 2, which help explain why Israel was created.

I see really nothing very complicated, what I see is very incompetent politicians, who seem bent on making problems always worse, instead of making the necessary concessions. Peace can never be based on humiliation of one people by another, which we see too often in that region of the world.
Coming up with a "solution" that you think is fair is easy. The hard part is getting the two sides together to agree to it.

Your solution is "easy" in that it was easy for you to think it up. It's hard in that the participants don't want to do it. Israel doesn't want to give up East Jerusalem, Syria doesn't want to sell parts of the Golan, and neither Iranians nor Arabs want anyone to tell them what they should teach their kids in their schools.

So...what's easy about that?

The two sides need to get together and work it out. What they work out should be left up to them.
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:29 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea not going to happen. The idea of a two state solution is dead abandoning 10% of the population in the settlements? Never going to happen that is 10% of the votes right there and you are never going to get enough of the rest to side against them.
Why do you think abandoning 10% of their population is required? Alternatives include evacuating settlements to Israel and/or keeping those lands as part of Israel.
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:51 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I would like to quote National Public Radio (are you sure you're not reading Fox News too much?):

( https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ticizes-israel )
It seems that none of the Palestinian demonstrators actually crossed into Israeli territory. Yet, about 60 were brutally killed. Isn't that barbaric and excessive? It would seem the barbarians are not on the side you think.
Israel is going to prevent a breach of their border by whatever means are necessary. That Palestinians failed to cross into Israeli territory is proof of Israeli resolve to prevent that, it's not proof of Palestinian intentions.

Did you hear about the baby that died to tear gas inhalation? Think about that; some Palestinian person thought it was a good idea to bring a baby to a demonstration with burning tires and tear gas.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The Palestinians may have a right to resistance, like we in Belgium had a right to resist when we were invaded by Germans in 1914 and 1940. Your philosophy, according to which problems get solved through violence sound strangely like Nazism to me.
What exactly are they “resisting” and how does it get solved by forcing themselves across the border to Israel?

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
So I think what responsible statespeople should do is normalize their situation, give them a normal life in a normal state (and this should not prevent Israel from defending themselves when it is really necessary). But this is obviously not what Donald Trump is talking about in his rallies, he doesn't care about that (but I think he should).
It’s not up to Israel to give Gazans a “normal life”. It’s up to Hamas, their democratically elected leadership. Hamas chooses instead to spend its resources attacking Israel.
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:41 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why do so many people confuse describing how things are with advocating for how things should be?
Soon there will be no job, water or power in Gaza that will surely make them love us right?
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:43 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is that the Sovereign Nation is trying to rule another Nation. What do you expect?
I have no love for HAMAS but I can't see things is simple black and white terms. Your whole Soverign Nation argument falls down on the point that Israel more or less controls Gaza.
That is why this two state solution is doomed. I guess you could have sovereign nation and subject nation. That is kind of like two states right?
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:47 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'm sure your One Palestinian State "solution" will go over beautifully. Perhaps almost as well as the current situation... if your phenomenally lucky.
That really is the current solution only faster and more honest. I get it Jews love ghettos and hate the idea of them having clean water or power anymore. Once we take enough from them surely they will love us, that works so well as a policy.
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:48 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I would like to quote National Public Radio (are you sure you're not reading Fox News too much?):

( https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ticizes-israel )
It seems that none of the Palestinian demonstrators actually crossed into Israeli territory. Yet, about 60 were brutally killed. Isn't that barbaric and excessive? It would seem the barbarians are not on the side you think. The Palestinians may have a right to resistance, like we in Belgium had a right to resist when we were invaded by Germans in 1914 and 1940. Your philosophy, according to which problems get solved through violence sound strangely like Nazism to me. Do you sometimes think about the number of injured who are left behind? As explained in this article (in French): https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/pa...e_2753193.html , many Palestinians took great risks (they knew it was dangerous, they had been warned) because they feel desperate, living in extreme poverty in what is sometimes describe as the world’s largest open-air prison: https://www.nrc.no/news/2018/april/g...en-air-prison/ with no hope, no decent future.
So I think what responsible statespeople should do is normalize their situation, give them a normal life in a normal state (and this should not prevent Israel from defending themselves when it is really necessary). But this is obviously not what Donald Trump is talking about in his rallies, he doesn't care about that (but I think he should).
Crazy talk, you have to remember for all his faults Reinhard Heydrich really knew how to run a subject state.
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:50 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It seems that none of the Palestinian demonstrators actually crossed into Israeli territory. Yet, about 60 were brutally killed. Isn't that barbaric and excessive?
Yeah, so excessive to stop them from crossing the border.

http://hurryupharry.org/2018/05/15/i...tory’-in-gaza/
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:52 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Crazy talk, you have to remember for all his faults Reinhard Heydrich really knew how to run a subject state.
As a reality check: it’s Hamas that are similar to heydrich.
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:52 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Why do you think abandoning 10% of their population is required? Alternatives include evacuating settlements to Israel and/or keeping those lands as part of Israel.
Forced evacuations of 10% of the population? Not feasible, as for keeping the land then you need more land to protect and unify it, so would there be enough left for a functioning palestinian state?

There is no solution, they are not going to try to integrate the palestinians, they are not going to let them have an economy needed for a state, and they are unwilling to accept the political ramifications of accepting their subject non citizen status or expelling them.

So all there is, is to continue with the deindustrialization of palestine.
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:54 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
As a reality check: it’s Hamas that are similar to heydrich.
The collective punishment for a people for the bad actions by Israel seems right up his tactics.

Swap out polls for palestinians.
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Old 16th May 2018, 09:20 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It seems that none of the Palestinian demonstrators actually crossed into Israeli territory. Yet, about 60 were brutally killed. Isn't that barbaric and excessive? It would seem the barbarians are not on the side you think. The Palestinians may have a right to resistance, like we in Belgium had a right to resist when we were invaded by Germans in 1914 and 1940. Your philosophy, according to which problems get solved through violence sound strangely like Nazism to me.
I'm not even going to bother arguing about your errors in ignoring violence from the Palestinians. I'm just going to discuss the complete internal incoherence of your own posts. You're criticizing me for saying that violence can solve problems, but you're simultaneously arguing for the right to use violence. How on earth does that make any sense? You're contradicting yourself.

Furthermore, your attempts to Godwin our exchange is pathetic. How precisely do you think Nazism was defeated? By hugging? No. Nazism was defeated with violence.

And lastly, I didn't put forth any philosophy. I noted a historical truth. It's simply a fact that violence often brings peace, when one side defeats another. No moral judgment attaches to the mere observation of a fact. It may be morally good (as when the Allies defeated the Axis powers), it may be morally bad (as when the communists took over in Russia). But you can't make facts go away by being offended by them.

And you can't win this argument by calling me a Nazi.

Quote:
As explained in this article (in French): https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/pa...e_2753193.html , many Palestinians took great risks (they knew it was dangerous, they had been warned) because they feel desperate, living in extreme poverty in what is sometimes describe as the world’s largest open-air prison: https://www.nrc.no/news/2018/april/g...en-air-prison/ with no hope, no decent future.
You are right that they have no hope and no decent future. But you are wrong about both the cause and the effect. Poverty doesn't cause terrorism (the 9/11 attackers were all middle class, and many Palestinian terrorists are relatively well-off), it is caused by terrorism. This is the dirty little secret about the conflict that nobody wants to acknowledge.

Quote:
So I think what responsible statespeople should do is normalize their situation, give them a normal life in a normal state (and this should not prevent Israel from defending themselves when it is really necessary).
It is not within Israel's power to give them a normal life in a normal state. Hamas makes that impossible. Were they to have sovereignty, it would be a dysfunctional kleptocracy.
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Old 16th May 2018, 09:23 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Soon there will be no job, water or power in Gaza that will surely make them love us right?
Hey, it wasn't the Israelis who just destroyed the gas delivery terminal into Gaza. Or burned a bunch of tires and then complained about a tire shortage.
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:00 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Hey, it wasn't the Israelis who just destroyed the gas delivery terminal into Gaza. Or burned a bunch of tires and then complained about a tire shortage.
Exactly collectively punish them, that is the way to win them over. All great empires knew that once you crush them under your boot long enough they will love you for it. And if there is anything jews know it is how much they benefited from that kind of behaviors in the past.
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:29 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
As a reality check: it’s Hamas that are similar to heydrich.
It is amusing to see people on this site who are pretty far to the left support a violent ,exteme religious fanatics who are perfect examples of the worst side of Islam.
Like I said, HAMAS and Bibi are the best friends either ever had.
I think the Paletisnians have very legitimate greviences but Hamas will only lead them to disaster.
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:33 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Hey, it wasn't the Israelis who just destroyed the gas delivery terminal into Gaza. Or burned a bunch of tires and then complained about a tire shortage.
I get the impression you just don't care much about Palestinians, period.
I despise Hamas,but also think the Hard Line Bibi approach will lead to disaster.
And I find your "Might Makes Right" approach to the problem to be very dangerous.
Terrorism is a complex topic, but you dismissal of poverty as a cause of Terrorism is silly.
Maybe you should take off the right wing blinkers for a minute...just like other people in this thread need to take off the left wing blinkers.
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:41 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
...
What exactly are they “resisting” and how does it get solved by forcing themselves across the border to Israel?
...
The Palestinians are trying to resist an illegal and painful occupation by Israel in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and a painful blockade by Israel in the Gaza Strip, and the United States is constantly making the problem worse by providing unconditional political support and an unlimited supply of weapons to Israel, an advanced state which unfortunately doesn't care about international law when it feels it does not benefit from it (even though Israel actually owns its existence to an United Nations resolution). I said the solution is simple because it is mostly contained in existing UN resolutions, but unfortunately the "demonic rogue state USA" (which seems to be constantly busy creating or aggravating crises or problems in the world) has allowed Israel to escape most of its international obligations so far, thereby causing immense suffering in the world, either directly or indirectly (through bombings or invasions for example).
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:45 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The Palestinians are trying to resist an illegal and painful occupation by Israel in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and a painful blockade by Israel in the Gaza Strip,
Hmm, is that the Gaza Strip that has a land border with Egypt?
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:00 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Hmm, is that the Gaza Strip that has a land border with Egypt?
Quote:
Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[22] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt. Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip )
It is true that, strictly speaking, the blockade of the Gaza Strip is done by both Israel and Egypt (which, curiously, is also (generally) a US ally )

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Old 16th May 2018, 11:02 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, so one of the seven land crossings is controlled by Egypt.
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:11 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I get the impression you just don't care much about Palestinians, period.
I do. I just don't blame Israel for their plight. It's a god-damn tragedy for them, but rewarding Palestinian violence is exactly what got both us and them into this mess.

Quote:
I despise Hamas,but also think the Hard Line Bibi approach will lead to disaster.
I've heard doomsayers every time anyone in the west takes a hard line approach to any of our enemies. It rarely turns out that way. And in regards to this thread specifically, I don't see locating our embassy in Jerusalem as particularly hard-line, nor do I see it leading to disaster. Why would it?

Quote:
And I find your "Might Makes Right" approach to the problem to be very dangerous.
That's not MY approach. That's just how the world usually works in practice. You might not like it, but your outrage is insufficient to change it.

Quote:
Terrorism is a complex topic, but you dismissal of poverty as a cause of Terrorism is silly.
It's far less silly than blaming terrorism on poverty, which you had no objection to. The facts simply don't support any such conclusion.

Quote:
Maybe you should take off the right wing blinkers for a minute...
And do what, listen to platitudes? Bow to emotion rather than reason? You have yet to present anything approaching an actual counter-argument.
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:14 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly collectively punish them,
They punished themselves by destroying that fuel transfer station and burning all their tires. You can't blame the jooos for that.
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:22 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I do. I just don't blame Israel for their plight. It's a god-damn tragedy for them, but rewarding Palestinian violence is exactly what got both us and them into this mess.
It is like the blacks in the US, they are the fault of their own sorry lives. Really no one ever has anyone other than themselves to blame. Unless you are a white man then you can blame who ever you want and face no consequences.

I mean seriously there isn't and shouldn't be any difference cops and criminals.
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Old 16th May 2018, 11:53 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is like the blacks in the US, they are the fault of their own sorry lives. Really no one ever has anyone other than themselves to blame. Unless you are a white man then you can blame who ever you want and face no consequences.

I mean seriously there isn't and shouldn't be any difference cops and criminals.
You've got nothing but straw men and appeals to emotion. It's kind of sad to see you struggle like this.
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Old 16th May 2018, 12:28 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That really is the current solution only faster and more honest. I get it Jews love ghettos and hate the idea of them having clean water or power anymore. Once we take enough from them surely they will love us, that works so well as a policy.
How come the onus is on Israel to get Palestinians to love them, but not on Palestinians to get Israel to love them?

This tacitly acknowledges not only a double-standard, but also that the real issue is Palestinian intransigence,
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