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Tags "Hellstorm" , war crimes , World War II history

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Old 27th July 2016, 09:29 AM   #241
jimbob
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Originally Posted by This Guy View Post
Thanks for this!

Sounds like there was a bit of retaliation for Malmedy going on for at least some of the US actions. And its easy to say today that it shouldn't have happened. If we were in the situation those folks were in, knowing about Malmedy, I think we might see things differently. Even so these were war crimes.
It also seems as though there was some summary justice involved. Given what the Americans had just seen, and the guard shooting a prisoner in front of them, and some not surrendering, that's not surprising. Certainly nobody could blame the concentration camp inmates for beating any guard to death, and I don't blame the troops who didn't intervene. It might have been better for due process to convict and execute the guards, but it is a pretty minor quibble given that all the guards were guilty.
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OECD healthcare spending
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

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Old 27th July 2016, 11:28 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Then you will agree with me in condemning the British Bombing campaign the purpose of which was as follows, according to the chief of Bomber Command[indent] ... the aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive...should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany.

I've argued with you on this previously, in detail, and with citations to evidence. You found it all unconvincing. Consequently, I'll not argue with you about it again. The attempt would be fruitless.

I will, however, point out your objection is in actuality invalidated by your own citation.

Quote:
... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy.

See that emphasized portion? That surely has a detrimental affect on the German war economy, hindering both its efficiency and production.

(I'll point out again as well that only about half the bombs dropped by Bomber Command were on so-called 'industrial areas'; the remainder were on a variety of other targets, such as transportation, oil refineries, V-weapon sites, submarine pens, airfields, etc. That other array of targets appears to be forgotten quite often in these debates.)
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Old 28th July 2016, 02:16 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
I will, however, point out your objection is in actuality invalidated by your own citation.

See that emphasized portion? That surely has a detrimental affect on the German war economy, hindering both its efficiency and production.
It doesn't invalidate my point at all, which is that the primary target of the bombing campaign was not industrial production but civilian lives. Read it again
the aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive...should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany.
... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories.
Now, obviously killing civilians has, as a by product (whether Harris took it into account or not), the disruption of production, just as recent terrorist killings of civilians entail significant costs to the state and economy of the target countries. But such anti-civilian campaigns are still criminal acts and would be so even if their perpetrators had a legitimate cause. That terrorism may have a effect beneficial to its perpetrators' aims is no valid justification.

Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
I'll point out again as well that only about half the bombs dropped by Bomber Command were on so-called 'industrial areas'; the remainder were on a variety of other targets, such as transportation, oil refineries, V-weapon sites, submarine pens, airfields, etc. That other array of targets appears to be forgotten quite often in these debates.
I am well aware of that. These were legitimate targets, and my condemnation specifically relates to the targeting of civilians.

In the case of the V weapons, the bombing intended to delay their introduction, on one occasion caused heavy loss of life among the civilian slave labourers employed in their manufacture.
On 17 August [1943], 560 aircraft dropped 1,800 tons of bombs on the area, effectively destroying the facility. At Peenemünde itself, 170 people were killed, and a further 500 lost their lives at its dedicated labour camp, which had been bombed in error.
If your argument had been right, the Allies would have targeted that labour force, not struck it "in error", and would have been gratified that so many of these workers had been killed.

But of course they were, rightly, distressed by this unintended killing. If they didn't apply your principle, even in such a case as averting an impending missile attack, about which the allies had serious and valid apprehensions, then it ought not to have been adopted as the principal strategic doctrine in attacking German cities in general.
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Old 28th July 2016, 03:00 AM   #244
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I do have to admit that I do not honestly see that Erich Raeder deserved life in prison while Dönitz was sentenced to ten years in prison.
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Old 28th July 2016, 10:24 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I do have to admit that I do not honestly see that Erich Raeder deserved life in prison while Dönitz was sentenced to ten years in prison.
The Russians wanted to hang all of them.
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Old 28th July 2016, 11:50 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I do have to admit that I do not honestly see that Erich Raeder deserved life in prison while Dönitz was sentenced to ten years in prison.
One of the main charges was "Participartion in common plan or conspiracy against the peace". Raeder was CinC of the Kriegsmarine at the start of the war; thus he participated in the conspiracy, whereas Dönitz only became the same following Raeder's resignation. So Dönitz was considered innocent of that particular charge.

Basically, I believe that was the logic. That charge was also the one that received the most criticism among legal scholars, IIRC, being an unreasonably wide cast net having little basis in either common or civil law.
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Old 28th July 2016, 11:59 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
One of the main charges was "Participartion in common plan or conspiracy against the peace". Raeder was CinC of the Kriegsmarine at the start of the war; thus he participated in the conspiracy, whereas Dönitz only became the same following Raeder's resignation. So Dönitz was considered innocent of that particular charge.

Basically, I believe that was the logic. That charge was also the one that received the most criticism among legal scholars, IIRC, being an unreasonably wide cast net having little basis in either common or civil law.
I always understood Dönitz was jailed because he was left in charge by Hitler for the last days of the war, and therefore just had to be punished. His unrestricted submarine campaign was the official reason why he was tried. US Navy officers testifying that we conducted a very similar campaign resulted in a lightened sentence.
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Old 28th July 2016, 12:34 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
I always understood Dönitz was jailed because he was left in charge by Hitler for the last days of the war, and therefore just had to be punished. His unrestricted submarine campaign was the official reason why he was tried. US Navy officers testifying that we conducted a very similar campaign resulted in a lightened sentence.
He was still CinC iof an aggressive war apparatus that employed slave labour, etc. It was hard being a such high ranking commander without being a criminal at the Nuremberg trials.
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Old 28th July 2016, 01:11 PM   #249
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We now know that the guy who really managed to game the judges at Nuremberg was Speer. He now know he got off easy compared to his level of responsiblty for the slave labor program. People who were probably less guilty then Speer were hung.
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Old 28th July 2016, 01:29 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
We now know that the guy who really managed to game the judges at Nuremberg was Speer. He now know he got off easy compared to his level of responsiblty for the slave labor program. People who were probably less guilty then Speer were hung.
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Old 28th July 2016, 02:53 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
One of the main charges was "Participartion in common plan or conspiracy against the peace". Raeder was CinC of the Kriegsmarine at the start of the war; thus he participated in the conspiracy, whereas Dönitz only became the same following Raeder's resignation. So Dönitz was considered innocent of that particular charge.

Basically, I believe that was the logic. That charge was also the one that received the most criticism among legal scholars, IIRC, being an unreasonably wide cast net having little basis in either common or civil law.
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
I always understood Dönitz was jailed because he was left in charge by Hitler for the last days of the war, and therefore just had to be punished. His unrestricted submarine campaign was the official reason why he was tried. US Navy officers testifying that we conducted a very similar campaign resulted in a lightened sentence.
Raeder was not a Nazi and tried to be apolitical. I have read that Dönitz was an ardent Nazi however. He supported Hitler's scorched earth policy as well.
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Old 28th July 2016, 04:30 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Raeder was not a Nazi and tried to be apolitical. I have read that Dönitz was an ardent Nazi however. He supported Hitler's scorched earth policy as well.
Can I ask where you read that? Dönitz was largely apolitical, and not even a party member. If you read his autobiography, 10 Years and 20 Days, there's very little about politics in there, and far more about the problems with using torpedoes in sub-arctic conditions. As far as I can see, he was a military man caught on the wrong side of history.
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Old 28th July 2016, 10:37 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
His unrestricted submarine campaign was the official reason why he was tried. US Navy officers testifying that we conducted a very similar campaign resulted in a lightened sentence.

On that point it is interesting to note that USN submarines actually achieved against Japan what the Kriegsmarine's U-boats only dreamed of achieving against Britain.
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Old 28th July 2016, 11:25 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
On that point it is interesting to note that USN submarines actually achieved against Japan what the Kriegsmarine's U-boats only dreamed of achieving against Britain.
While many try to argue that the German U-Boats were better than the US Submarines, in many ways the US subs were actually better. They were actually quieter and were much more habitable for long missions.
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Old 28th July 2016, 11:32 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Can I ask where you read that? Dönitz was largely apolitical, and not even a party member. If you read his autobiography, 10 Years and 20 Days, there's very little about politics in there, and far more about the problems with using torpedoes in sub-arctic conditions. As far as I can see, he was a military man caught on the wrong side of history.
Sorry, got a couple of items confused. He did openly and strongly support Nazi ideas and the party however including antisemitism.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...t/Doenitz.html

http://ww2db.com/person_bio.php?person_id=128

I read a lot about the American Civil War and if you read what the Confederate leaders wrote after the war, they try to downplay the role slavery played in the war. . . .It was cental as much as they try to argue otherwise.

I would argue that his autobiography should be looked at similarly.
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Old 29th July 2016, 01:03 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
While many try to argue that the German U-Boats were better than the US Submarines, in many ways the US subs were actually better. They were actually quieter and were much more habitable for long missions.
They were also up against a less capable enemy in the Pacific.
The Japanese anti-sub stuff was really not on a par with the WAllies in the Atlantic.
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Old 29th July 2016, 02:09 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
They were also up against a less capable enemy in the Pacific.
The Japanese anti-sub stuff was really not on a par with the WAllies in the Atlantic.
The US Navy did start with some pretty horrible torpedoes however.
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Old 29th July 2016, 02:13 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I read a lot about the American Civil War and if you read what the Confederate leaders wrote after the war, they try to downplay the role slavery played in the war. . . .It was cental as much as they try to argue otherwise.

I would argue that his autobiography should be looked at similarly.
That's the point, he didn't. He barely mentioned politics, and there's very little self justification in there, but lots about the finer points of submarine warfare. This speaks volumes about Dönitz the man.
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Old 29th July 2016, 02:28 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
The US Navy did start with some pretty horrible torpedoes however.
So did the German submarine fleet, during the first year or so of the Battle of the AtlanticWP
Time and again, U-boat captains tracked British targets and fired, only to watch the ships sail on unharmed as the torpedoes exploded prematurely (due to the influence pistol), or hit and failed to explode (because of a faulty contact pistol), or ran beneath the target without exploding (due to the influence feature or depth control not working correctly). Not a single British warship was sunk by a U-boat in more than 20 attacks. As the news spread through the U-boat fleet, it began to undermine morale. The director in charge of torpedo development continued to claim it was the crews' fault. In early 1941 the problems were determined to be due to differences in the earth's magnetic fields at high latitudes and a slow leakage of high-pressure air from the submarine into the torpedo's depth regulation gear. These problems were solved by about March 1941, making the torpedo a formidable weapon.
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Old 29th July 2016, 02:53 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
That's the point, he didn't. He barely mentioned politics, and there's very little self justification in there, but lots about the finer points of submarine warfare. This speaks volumes about Dönitz the man.
That in a book, years after the fact, he is embarrassed about being involved during the War with National Socialism. . . . .Seems pretty clear that party member or not that he was heavily involved with National Socialism.

I need to change my position again - According to "The Battle of The Atlantic: The Allies Fight Against Hitler's Grey Wolves", Dönitz became a member of the Nazi party in February 1944 as party member 9,664,999.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3Q...ialism&f=false
It appears to be supported here
https://books.google.com/books?id=QY...%2C999&f=false

Edit: It looks like Raeder forbid members of the navy from joining the Nazi party and it was not after he was no longer head of the navy.
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Old 29th July 2016, 09:51 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
The US Navy did start with some pretty horrible torpedoes however.

In an interesting parallel, the German U-boats suffered the exact same problem at the start of the war.
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Old 29th July 2016, 11:19 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
The US Navy did start with some pretty horrible torpedoes however.
That was the worst American weapon scandal of World War 2. Basically, for the first two years of the war US Torpedos had an over 50% failure rate. What is shocking is the way that Naval Ordance refused to believe anything was wrong, and blamed it all on the captians and crew.
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Old 29th July 2016, 11:21 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
In an interesting parallel, the German U-boats suffered the exact same problem at the start of the war.
True,but the Germans were much faster to fix it;whereas US Naval Ordance refused to admit there was a major problem for over a year.
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Old 29th July 2016, 11:23 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
That's the point, he didn't. He barely mentioned politics, and there's very little self justification in there, but lots about the finer points of submarine warfare. This speaks volumes about Dönitz the man.
Mentioning his position toward Hitler, the nazi party or nazism in an autobiography could have been embarrassing. Therefore the best way to avoid this embarrassment the best way is to completely forget the issue in the autobiography.

It is much less compromising for him to speak about the finer points of submarine warfare and let people think he was only a mere technician who became involved despite his will in an inhuman war. He is not the only German Wehrmacht General to have played this game.

Do you really think that Hitler would have appointed him as his successor if he would not have been convinced that Doenitz was a true nazi ?
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Old 29th July 2016, 05:22 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True,but the Germans were much faster to fix it;whereas US Naval Ordance refused to admit there was a major problem for over a year.
Luckily John Wayne saved the day!

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Old 29th July 2016, 06:23 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That was the worst American weapon scandal of World War 2. Basically, for the first two years of the war US Torpedos had an over 50% failure rate. What is shocking is the way that Naval Ordance refused to believe anything was wrong, and blamed it all on the captians and crew.
Interestingly, when they were used old torpedoes they did much better. That should have caused a pause. . . .
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Old 29th July 2016, 10:34 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
While many try to argue that the German U-Boats were better than the US Submarines, in many ways the US subs were actually better. They were actually quieter and were much more habitable for long missions.

U.S. subs were certainly well-suited to the enemy they were facing. It might have been a different story had USN subs been facing an enemy as capable as the German submarines faced in the Atlantic. If I recall correctly, a U-boat could crash dive in about thirty seconds whereas it took closer to sixty seconds for a USN submarine. That longer time might have been costly given the degree to which Allied air power contributed to anti-submarine work.
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Old 30th July 2016, 01:03 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
U.S. subs were certainly well-suited to the enemy they were facing. It might have been a different story had USN subs been facing an enemy as capable as the German submarines faced in the Atlantic. If I recall correctly, a U-boat could crash dive in about thirty seconds whereas it took closer to sixty seconds for a USN submarine. That longer time might have been costly given the degree to which Allied air power contributed to anti-submarine work.
From what I recall, the Type IX were not much better in their dive time than the US submarines and the US Submarines improved in dive times as time progressed. Friedman is at home however so cannot check right now.
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Old 30th July 2016, 04:10 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Interestingly, when they were used old torpedoes they did much better. That should have caused a pause. . . .
Something similar happened in 1982


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Mod 1 had an anti-ship seeker, but experienced problems with the shipboard tactical-data system and with actual torpedo control. During this time, the Royal Navy Torpedo Factory (RNTF) was closed and production passed to Plessey. The redesigned Mod 1 version passed trials in 1978 and was issued to the fleet the following year.

However, in a test performed in 1982 immediately after the Falklands War, two out of five Mod 1 torpedoes fired at a target hulk failed to function because of bad batteries and none of the others even hit the target. This unreliability was well known in the Fleet, which is why ancient Mark 8 torpedoes were used to sink the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...inch_Mark_VIII

Quote:
The Mark VIII** was used in two particularly notable incidents:-

On 9 February 1945 the Royal Navy submarine HMS Venturer sank the German submarine U-864 with four Mark VIII** torpedoes. This is the only intentional wartime sinking of one submarine by another while both were submerged.

On 2 May 1982 the Royal Navy submarine HMS Conqueror sank the Argentine cruiser ARA General Belgrano with three Mark VIII** torpedoes during the Falklands War.[2] This is the only sinking of a surface ship by a nuclear-powered submarine in wartime (and only the second sinking of a surface ship by any submarine since the end of WWII).
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Expenditure on healthcare
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

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Old 30th July 2016, 09:27 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Do you really think that Hitler would have appointed him as his successor if he would not have been convinced that Doenitz was a true nazi ?
Who else was left? Hess was in a Scottish prison, Göring had been expelled from the party after trying to organise a coup and Ribbentrop had fallen out of favour. Maybe Goebbels or Bormann could've done the job, but politics and ideology were hardly relevant by then anyway. Dönitz was charged with negotiating a surrender to the Americans, and keeping as many Germans out of the hands of the Russians as possible. At that, he proved more than capable.
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Old 30th July 2016, 10:37 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
From what I recall, the Type IX were not much better in their dive time than the US submarines and the US Submarines improved in dive times as time progressed. Friedman is at home however so cannot check right now.

The Type VII was the prime U-boat, however.
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Old 30th July 2016, 01:08 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Who else was left? Hess was in a Scottish prison, Göring had been expelled from the party after trying to organise a coup and Ribbentrop had fallen out of favour. Maybe Goebbels or Bormann could've done the job, but politics and ideology were hardly relevant by then anyway. Dönitz was charged with negotiating a surrender to the Americans, and keeping as many Germans out of the hands of the Russians as possible. At that, he proved more than capable.
Speer?
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Old 31st July 2016, 04:12 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
On that point it is interesting to note that USN submarines actually achieved against Japan what the Kriegsmarine's U-boats only dreamed of achieving against Britain.
Well, considering that for half the war the Japanese depth charges didn't even go to the depth the USN subs were diving to avoid them, I'd say it's not that surprising. And even later, the Japanese didn't have any equivalent of huff-duff, nor the hedgehog, nor any kind of usable radar for that task, nor the extensive air support, nor even effective ASW tactics (the Japanese usually aborted the attack too soon), etc.

Basically, yes, when shooting fish in a barrel, you can be a lot more effective than when getting into a pissing contest with the Royal Navy
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Old 31st July 2016, 06:07 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, considering that for half the war the Japanese depth charges didn't even go to the depth the USN subs were diving to avoid them, I'd say it's not that surprising. And even later, the Japanese didn't have any equivalent of huff-duff, nor the hedgehog, nor any kind of usable radar for that task, nor the extensive air support, nor even effective ASW tactics (the Japanese usually aborted the attack too soon), etc.

Basically, yes, when shooting fish in a barrel, you can be a lot more effective than when getting into a pissing contest with the Royal Navy
Even then though, US Submarine service was extremely dangerous
http://maritime.org/pamphist/subslost.htm
The decisive role played by the Silent Service during WW II is often overlooked, or the significance of their contribution is not fully understood. The Submarine Service represented only 1.6% of all Navy personnel during the war but they accounted for over 55% of all Japanese ships sunk, including one-third of the Imperial Japanese Navy. Submariners paid a high price for this accomplishment, however, with the highest percentage causality rate of any branch of the service, almost 23%. Fifty-two U.S. submarines were lost during WW II with over 3,500 men. Many additional men were lost either from gunfire or tragic mishap. It should always be remembered that these men were all volunteers.
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Old 31st July 2016, 12:23 PM   #275
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not minimizing anyone's sacrifice. But looking at fleet numbers involved, by way of comparison, Germany lost over a thousand subs in WW2 and didn't achieve nearly as much. So, yeah. The Japanese weren't quite as formidable an opponent to submarines as the Royal Navy was.
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Old 31st July 2016, 02:03 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Don't get me wrong, I'm not minimizing anyone's sacrifice. But looking at fleet numbers involved, by way of comparison, Germany lost over a thousand subs in WW2 and didn't achieve nearly as much. So, yeah. The Japanese weren't quite as formidable an opponent to submarines as the Royal Navy was.
One Japanese WWII officer* noted that graduates of the Japanese naval academy were sent by their class standings to their first assignments:

First raters were sent to Battleships

The lowest raters were sent to anti-submarine ships

*Capt. Tameichi Hara: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tameichi_Hara
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:52 AM   #277
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It would explain the sub-par ASW attacks, I guess.
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Old 1st August 2016, 07:18 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
It would explain the sub-par ASW attacks, I guess.
They also thought our subs couldn't dive nearly as deep as they could until late in the war. And they had far, far inferior ASW sensors and weapons than the W Allies had, especially by 1943.
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Old 1st August 2016, 09:26 AM   #279
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WHat was this thread about again?

/reads OP

oh right.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Old 2nd August 2016, 03:56 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
WHat was this thread about again?

/reads OP

oh right.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
The original OP was kinda of dull - so people ran with cooler stuff to discuss!
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