ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , US-Israel relations

Reply
Old 20th March 2018, 06:43 PM   #161
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 18,496
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
In the meantime, special dispensation from the government is being requested so that a wall can start going up immediately.
And Mexico will pay for it.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2018, 07:02 PM   #162
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,619
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
RUH-ROH.

Zoning regulations in Jerusalem do not currently allow for the construction of a 10-foot wall around the existing compound, which the State Department wants to do prior to May 14th to make it even more secure than it already is.

http://israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/243403
The National Planning and Building Committee is only scheduled to meet next in April, and that body can provide authorization, but that wouldn't leave enough time for the work to be done by May.

In the meantime, special dispensation from the government is being requested so that a wall can start going up immediately.
I don't see the problem.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th March 2018, 02:42 PM   #163
webfusion
Philosopher
 
webfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,265
Indeed, this "problem" was resolved with the stroke of a pen, as Israeli Finance Minister Moshe Kahlon on Wednesday signed a waiver allowing U.S. State Department officials to skip applying for rezoning and construction permits while upgrading an interim embassy facility in Jerusalem.
https://www.upi.com/https:/www.upi.c.../5121522246626
webfusion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2018, 09:59 AM   #164
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,063
The Arabs consider Israel to be an alien state on Arab lands. This has resulted in endless wars which might drag us into it as well. Let's hope common sense will prevail. It's no good just saying the Arabs don't want a peaceful settlement. Jerusalem and ejectment orders are a provocation.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2018, 03:01 PM   #165
webfusion
Philosopher
 
webfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,265
As Jews the world over sit at their 'seder' tables and enjoy retelling of the story of return to Zion, we end with the words "Next Year in Jerusalem" as we've been doing for countless generations.

To even suggest that's a provocation against Muslims (or Arabs) is disingenuous at best.

Last edited by webfusion; 30th March 2018 at 03:02 PM.
webfusion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2018, 04:15 PM   #166
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,196
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The Arabs consider Israel to be an alien state on Arab lands. This has resulted in endless wars which might drag us into it as well. Let's hope common sense will prevail. It's no good just saying the Arabs don't want a peaceful settlement. Jerusalem and ejectment orders are a provocation.
I'll alert The Elders immediately. They're always excited to hear advice from anti-Semites.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2018, 08:41 AM   #167
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,063
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'll alert The Elders immediately. They're always excited to hear advice from anti-Semites.
That's not cricket. These members of the Jewish race always say that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism. That defies common sense. All my life there has been Arab hatred of Israel, and you must ask yourself WHY?

There is a bit about this matter in a book called The Eden Legacy by Geoffrey McDermott in 1969:

Quote:
Beeley is no oil painting, has a twitch and a stammer, wears dowdy suits; but he treats Arabs as intelligent human beings and not as inferiors, which has been the tradition with too many British diplomats. His job is not made easier by blimps such as Lord Mancroft, who saw fit to describe in the Lords the closure of the Suez Canal as 'a ridiculous farce', and to cast aspersions on the skill of an Egyptian dentist who operated on a British seaman from one of the ships bottled up in the canal. 'I should not like to put myself in the hands of any dentist of the UAR,' said his Jewish lordship. It is a state of mind.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2018, 03:11 PM   #168
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,191
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post

There is a bit about this matter in a book called The Eden Legacy by Geoffrey McDermott in 1969:
That book does not seem to have been influential in any way, nor do the other two books written by the same author. Further, the passage you cite from it doesn't seem to have any significance to this discussion, so...?
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2018, 03:54 PM   #169
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,196
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
That's not cricket. These members of the Jewish race always say that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism. That defies common sense. All my life there has been Arab hatred of Israel, and you must ask yourself WHY?
You should be eternally grateful for the establishment of modern Israel. She gives accurately identified anti-semites something to stammer in defense.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2018, 02:31 AM   #170
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,063
My father used to say when he was alive that Israel is only the size of Wales, as though that made everything fair and just. It's like the narrow- minded Irish Catholics.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2018, 02:45 AM   #171
Parsman
Muse
 
Parsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 550
The actions of Israel are often driven by the hostility of her Arab neighbours. However those actions are also often wrong (expanding settlments, removing citizenship rights, restricting travel, armed over reaction to protests). It is not anti-semitic to point out that the government of a state are behaving contrary to the accepted norms and laws practiced by other countries. You are criticising the politics of a nation, just as you can criticise the UK government for many of its actions during the Irish Troubles (Bloody Sunday) or an overly aggresive US foreign policy (Chile, Cuba, Grenada, Afghanistan, Iraq). It doesn't make you anti-W.A.S.P. Criticising Israel only becomes anti-semitic if you state they are acting that way BECAUSE they are Jews.
__________________
I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus

When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid.
Parsman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd April 2018, 05:04 AM   #172
webfusion
Philosopher
 
webfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,265
"It is not anti-semitic to point out that the government of a state are behaving contrary to the accepted norms and laws practiced by other countries."

I would say it's antisemitic when those who criticize make a point of excluding attention to all other countries' bad behaviors.
(See: UNHRC)

And Bibi is right, when he notes that Turkish President is acting like someone throwing rocks while living in his own glass house.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JoLZE2Jzog
webfusion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2018, 04:55 AM   #173
webfusion
Philosopher
 
webfusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,265
Preparations completed



Jerusalem municipal workers have completed work on placing the signs directing people to the new US Embassy.
webfusion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2018, 04:08 PM   #174
Hercules56
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,892
Pulling out from Iran nuke deal.

Moving the embassy to Jerusalem.

Threatening sanctions against NATO allies that continue trade with Iran.

Is Trump now taking orders from Netanyahu? Sure looks that way.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 12:58 AM   #175
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Pulling out from Iran nuke deal.

Moving the embassy to Jerusalem.

Threatening sanctions against NATO allies that continue trade with Iran.

Is Trump now taking orders from Netanyahu? Sure looks that way.
Personally I don't think so, it's just that the interests of the US hawks and Evangelicals happen to align with Netanyahu's at the moment. The point at which they diverge is the point at which any apparent influence of Netanyahu over the Trump Administration will dissipate.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 08:33 AM   #176
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,063
I just think it's a lack of tact by Trump. That is the most violent corner of the world, and Netanyahu and John Bolton are determined to go to war with Iran. The matter is mentioned at this website:

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/co...-year-in-power

Quote:
The president squandered the opportunity to help resolve the crisis amongst the GCC neighbours, taking sides with the Saudi bloc in singling out Qatar for allegedly supporting terrorist groups, a nation that hosts the biggest US military base in the region; a fact some say Trump may not have even been aware of.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 14th May 2018 at 08:35 AM.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 12:15 PM   #177
dudalb
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Personally I don't think so, it's just that the interests of the US hawks and Evangelicals happen to align with Netanyahu's at the moment. The point at which they diverge is the point at which any apparent influence of Netanyahu over the Trump Administration will dissipate.
It will only change then the Body Bags start coming home....
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 01:57 PM   #178
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It will only change then the Body Bags start coming home....
I very much doubt it unless we're talking tens or hundreds of thousands.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 02:06 PM   #179
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,879
We are now at a massacre of 400 hundred human beings dead and ten times more wounded to celebrate this wonderful occasion.

Craig rightly states:

Originally Posted by Craig Murray
The gross injustice of the apartheid state of Israel appears immutable. The overwhelming force of the political and financial Establishment is behind Israel in the West, in the Russian oligarchy and even in most of the horribly corrupt leadership of Arab states. But the situation is not as dire as it seems, because the hold of those Establishment elites on the people they exploit has never been more shaky. Israel remains a touchstone issue. In order to help redress the terrible agony of the Palestinians, we must first effect a change in our own system of elite exploitation of the people at home. That change is coming.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 02:26 PM   #180
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,641
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
We are now at a massacre of 400 hundred human beings dead and ten times more wounded to celebrate this wonderful occasion.

Craig rightly states:
The article you quote has no such numbers. It cites "dozens" killed (which corresponds to other reports that currently tally about 56 dead), and about 400 wounded, not dead.

Not to whitewash anything, but really, the article you quote does not make the claim you say it does.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 03:43 PM   #181
dudalb
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I very much doubt it unless we're talking tens or hundreds of thousands.
Did not take that many to turn people against the Iraq War....
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 03:44 PM   #182
dudalb
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The article you quote has no such numbers. It cites "dozens" killed (which corresponds to other reports that currently tally about 56 dead), and about 400 wounded, not dead.

Not to whitewash anything, but really, the article you quote does not make the claim you say it does.
The death toll is bad enough as it is,but I have not seen anywhere near the numbers that CE is spouting forth.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 03:50 PM   #183
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 69,491
Heard on the news today: Apparently Trump didn't know, and/or more likely didn't care, but moving the embassy was supposed to be a bargaining chip to get the Israeli's to give concessions during peace negotiations.

Jared's peace plan?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 04:07 PM   #184
dudalb
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
I think that Jennifer Rubin's column in the WAPO put it beaufifully when she said for the Peace Process to move forward we need a New Israeli President, New Leadership for the Palestinians,and a New US President.
Good luck with that. Rubin is right, but I don't see the above happening anytime soon.

Last edited by dudalb; 14th May 2018 at 04:12 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 04:11 PM   #185
dudalb
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Sad thing is in a lot of the debates about this in the comment section of variously websites, are full of comments that see everything in absolute Black and White terms,no nuance whatsoever. I know that the commetns section of on line newspapers are the last place to look for intelligent discussion, but the amount of "Death To Israel" rants was startling.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 04:15 PM   #186
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 18,496
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It will only change then the Body Bags start coming home....
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I very much doubt it unless we're talking tens or hundreds of thousands.
Which is 16 years ago for Afghanistan and 15 for Iraq and they are still going on. Counting the "other side", of course.

Certain American evangelicals actively pray for war in the middle east to bring on the End Times. Trump has fallen prey to them.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 04:35 PM   #187
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,191
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
We are now at a massacre of 400 hundred human beings dead and ten times more wounded to celebrate this wonderful occasion.

Craig rightly states:


Yeah, another conspiritard rambling about the shadowy "establishment elites" who somehow benefit from ongoing conflict between Palestinians and Israelis. The gullable drink it up even though you can't identify who these mysterious "establishment elites" are or how they benefit, but it's close enough to their anguished, "Oh my God!! My point of view is so obviously correct that the only explanation that the majority of the world disagrees with it is they must be being manipulated by 'establishment elites' or maybe secretly they are establishment elites..."

But the truth is the people most obviously benefiting from not bringing the conflict to an end is Mahmoud Abbas and Khaled Mashal. These guys are making a lot of money (not to mention power) by collecting aid monies and deciding where it should go, after they take their own cut. Arafat died a billionair, and so will Abbas. Since Arafat died Abbas has received offers, but has rejected them all out of hand.

Netenyahu doesn't benefit so directly, but he sure does politically. As long as the Palestinians don't want to come to the table, he's pretty much guaranteed to win every election.

The truth is that every awful thing you can name as a result of this continuing conflict would come to an end if they made peace with Israel.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 05:03 PM   #188
dudalb
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
How dare you criticize HAMAS or anybody else in the Palestinian leadership.,which, I am assured by others on this site, is a noble organization of heroic freedom fighters.victims of evil Western Propaganda against them?
I repeat Jennifer Rubin's statement that we need "regime change" in Israel, among the Palestinians,and in the US before progress can be made.
And yeah, HAMAS is the best thing to happen to Bibi.

Last edited by dudalb; 14th May 2018 at 05:06 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 06:26 PM   #189
Michel H
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 1,316
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
...
Netenyahu doesn't benefit so directly, but he sure does politically. As long as the Palestinians don't want to come to the table, he's pretty much guaranteed to win every election.

The truth is that every awful thing you can name as a result of this continuing conflict would come to an end if they made peace with Israel.
Coming to the table to negotiate is not necessarily useful if there is not some degree of agreement between the parties about the decisions that will need to be made.

The solution of the Israel-Palestine conflict is actually (in my opinion) very simple (and I am surprised some people sometimes describe it as difficult to solve): Israel just need to apply all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions, which are all fairly moderate and balanced, otherwise they would have been vetoed by the US (or possibly some other country).

All Israeli military and police forces should evacuate East Jerusalem and the West Bank (Israeli citizens who are living there legally could be given automatically resident status in Palestine, once the state of Palestine is created and recognized). I also think it would be a good think that Gaza becomes a second Palestinian state, with total and normal freedom of movement.

Finally, Israel could receive a few things that they like too: they could buy the part of Golan they occupy since 1967 to Syria, which needs money for its reconstruction. And new generations of young Arabs (and Iranians) should be taught and explained in school the very serious persecutions endured by the European Jews during World War 2, which help explain why Israel was created.

I see really nothing very complicated, what I see is very incompetent politicians, who seem bent on making problems always worse, instead of making the necessary concessions. Peace can never be based on humiliation of one people by another, which we see too often in that region of the world.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 06:48 PM   #190
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,879
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Not to whitewash anything, but really, the article you quote does not make the claim you say it does.

True, I read that elsewhere, forgot where. Sorry. Amnesty International has the injured in the thousands.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 09:22 PM   #191
Michel H
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 1,316
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
True, I read that elsewhere, forgot where. Sorry. Amnesty International has the injured in the thousands.
But you said (somewhat strangely):
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
We are now at a massacre of 400 hundred human beings dead and ten times more wounded to celebrate this wonderful occasion.

Craig rightly states:
400 hundred is a lot, and 400 is a lot too. Agree with your concerns, some reservations about your number of dead, Empress.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2018, 10:55 PM   #192
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 8,702
It all boils down to a win for theocratic discourse and religious war, and behind that, scheming parochial interests vying for the absolute power that comes with speaking in the name of a god. Absolute truths on human faces always form a death mask. Screw Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, and the sick donkey they all rode in on.

Mythological Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, OTOH, might have had some fables with heroes and villains, praiseworthy virtues and damnable vices to learn from, but unfortunately, these are not Greek in origin, so all dumb as doornails. May Zeus have his way with their wives and daughters, giving rise to idiots and imps.... wait, who is that on the US throne? Hah! Olympus rules! Goooo Zeus!
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time playing video games.
Summer Ongoing penance for overeating: His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2018, 02:35 AM   #193
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 8,317
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Heard on the news today: Apparently Trump didn't know, and/or more likely didn't care, but moving the embassy was supposed to be a bargaining chip to get the Israeli's to give concessions during peace negotiations.

Jared's peace plan?
Guess they didn't see the inevitable triumphalism coming....
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2018, 03:26 AM   #194
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,219
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Heard on the news today: Apparently Trump didn't know, and/or more likely didn't care, but moving the embassy was supposed to be a bargaining chip to get the Israeli's to give concessions during peace negotiations.

Jared's peace plan?
No just an understanding that peace negotiations are dead a two state solution is never going to happen and the US is not going to be trusted anyway with the backing out of the Iran deal. So really what could we have been negotiating for?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2018, 03:31 AM   #195
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,219
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Coming to the table to negotiate is not necessarily useful if there is not some degree of agreement between the parties about the decisions that will need to be made.

The solution of the Israel-Palestine conflict is actually (in my opinion) very simple (and I am surprised some people sometimes describe it as difficult to solve): Israel just need to apply all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions, which are all fairly moderate and balanced, otherwise they would have been vetoed by the US (or possibly some other country).

All Israeli military and police forces should evacuate East Jerusalem and the West Bank (Israeli citizens who are living there legally could be given automatically resident status in Palestine, once the state of Palestine is created and recognized). I also think it would be a good think that Gaza becomes a second Palestinian state, with total and normal freedom of movement.

Finally, Israel could receive a few things that they like too: they could buy the part of Golan they occupy since 1967 to Syria, which needs money for its reconstruction. And new generations of young Arabs (and Iranians) should be taught and explained in school the very serious persecutions endured by the European Jews during World War 2, which help explain why Israel was created.

I see really nothing very complicated, what I see is very incompetent politicians, who seem bent on making problems always worse, instead of making the necessary concessions. Peace can never be based on humiliation of one people by another, which we see too often in that region of the world.
Yea not going to happen. The idea of a two state solution is dead abandoning 10% of the population in the settlements? Never going to happen that is 10% of the votes right there and you are never going to get enough of the rest to side against them.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2018, 05:43 AM   #196
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,879
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
But you said (somewhat strangely):

400 hundred is a lot, and 400 is a lot too. Agree with your concerns, some reservations about your number of dead, Empress.

A double word in addition to exaggerated numbers not in the article I cited - it almost seems like I wasn't concentrating when posting that, doesn't it?

Official numbers are terrible enough indeed:

Originally Posted by Mondo Weiss
Today is unfolding as a horrifying and tragic day in Palestine. The Israeli military has opened fire on Gaza protesters as the U.S. and Israeli governments prepare to mark the move of the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem. Today has been the deadliest day in Gaza since the end of Operation Protective Edge in 2014.

According to the Gaza Ministry of Health (as of 21:00 GMT):
  • 58 killed, including 7 minors and 1 paramedic
  • 2,771 injured – including 225 minors, 11 journalists, 17 paramedics
  • 130 in serious and critical condition
  • 1,359 shot by Israeli soldiers using live Israeli ammunition.
Since the beginning of the Great March of Return on March 30th, 107 Palestinians have been killed, almost 3,400 protesters have been shot with live ammunition, and almost 13,000 injured. [...]

Remember this is military shooting on unarmed protesters behind a fence.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 15th May 2018 at 05:44 AM.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2018, 09:02 AM   #197
Michel H
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 1,316
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea not going to happen. The idea of a two state solution is dead abandoning 10% of the population in the settlements? Never going to happen that is 10% of the votes right there and you are never going to get enough of the rest to side against them.
I don't think the Israeli citizens living in the West Bank (for example) should be "abandoned" in any way.

In the West Bank, there are approximately 2,800,000 Palestinians, 370,000 ("legal", according to Israeli law) Israeli settlers, and about 20,000 settlers in illegal (according to Israeli law) outposts (sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_outpost ).

I think that the West Bank and East Jerusalem should be made an independant state, and that legal (according to Israeli law) Israeli settlers living in the West Bank should be granted automatic residency status in the new Palestinian state (with a possibility of applying for Palestinian citizenship).

They should enjoy full protection of the Palestinian law (in case they are attacked by extremists, for example; there is already security cooperation between the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government). They should be like Israeli residents in Jordan, for example.

Similarly, the Israeli citizens living in East Jerusalem should also become Palestinian residents (there are about 210,000 Jews and 320,000 Arabs in East Jerusalem, source: http://en.jerusaleminstitute.org.il/...Population.pdf ; there are also 330,000 Jews and only 3,000 Arabs in West Jerusalem).

Israeli settlers could be citizens of great value to the Palestinian Authority, because of their ability to pay taxes and to provide employment for Palestinians.

I believe that such a political solution, in line with international law, could provide better security for all, fewer frustrations and humiliations, and an interesting reduction of security expenses.

Whether this will really happen one day is of course another issue.
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2018, 09:07 AM   #198
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,219
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I don't think the Israeli citizens living in the West Bank (for example) should be "abandoned" in any way.

In the West Bank, there are approximately 2,800,000 Palestinians, 370,000 ("legal", according to Israeli law) Israeli settlers, and about 20,000 settlers in illegal (according to Israeli law) outposts (sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_outpost ).
Kicking 10% of your citizens out of your country into another country? Not going to happen. If we are talking about totally unrealistic solutions why be so limited?

2 state is dead, we need to stop trying to pretend it can be saved at this point, it rotted long ago. We need people to look for a peace process that can start where we are now, not were we were 40 years ago.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2018, 09:53 AM   #199
Michel H
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 1,316
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Kicking 10% of your citizens out of your country into another country? Not going to happen. If we are talking about totally unrealistic solutions why be so limited?

2 state is dead, we need to stop trying to pretend it can be saved at this point, it rotted long ago. We need people to look for a peace process that can start where we are now, not were we were 40 years ago.
Quote:
Kicking 10% of your citizens out of your country into another country? Not going to happen.
I am not saying that Israeli settlers in the West Bank should be deprived of their Israeli citizenship. They should be free to travel back to Israel if they so desire, for example to participate - legally now - in the development of the vast Negev desert.

I am saying they should be granted Palestinian residency when a Palestinian state is created (if that happens some day, I am not sure about this too), so they are not massively expelled when the day comes.

There is a great risk that a political solution imposed though force (rather than international law and justice), with, for example, a micro Palestinian state with water restrictions and the best land for settlers, and lots of restrictions for inhabitants of the Gaza strip will lead to persistent violence (this is basically the situation we have now).
Michel H is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2018, 10:57 AM   #200
dudalb
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Kicking 10% of your citizens out of your country into another country? Not going to happen. If we are talking about totally unrealistic solutions why be so limited?

2 state is dead, we need to stop trying to pretend it can be saved at this point, it rotted long ago. We need people to look for a peace process that can start where we are now, not were we were 40 years ago.
And if 2 state is dead, what is your solution that does not involve Israel commiting suicide.
And please don't start in with the "Secular Palestinian State" nonsense. That has about as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell, Last time I looked, most of the current Palestinian leadership seems to favor a Islamic Republic....
The only alternative to a 2 state solution is what is going on now going on forever.
And yes, I think most proposols for a one state solution are just code words and window dressing for the destruction of Israel.

the tragedy is that neither Bibi or Hamas want a two state solution.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:58 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.