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Old 5th April 2018, 03:27 PM   #161
Venom
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And what acts exactly of Stalin would be "equally atrocious" as, for example, the Holocaust?
Probably nothing, but Stalin wouldn't flinch at the level of torture and murder of Hitler and vice versa.

Reread please.

The West letting down their guard isn't "liberal apologetics". The general attitude in the West, particularly the U.S., was that this new post-Soviet Russia is starting fresh and we should back them fully. U.S. was eager to mend ties, unaware of the less tangible Soviet era mindset that still permeated the country.
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Old 5th April 2018, 03:47 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Probably nothing, but Stalin wouldn't flinch at the level of torture and murder of Hitler and vice versa.
Got any evidence for that?

Quote:
The West letting down their guard isn't "liberal apologetics".
Of course it is. The entire notion that the Western ruling class is some benevolent power structure whose only interest is in doing "good" and hence whose victims can only be regarded as the results of honest mistakes or letting down their guard is peak liberal apologetics. Yeltsin did exactly what was expected of him, change the power structure to capitalist standards so the ruling class could use (death from) unemployment, homelessness, etc as power levers over the working class.

Quote:
U.S. was eager to mend ties, unaware of the less tangible Soviet era mindset that still permeated the country.
The Soviet era mindset that putting everyone in the Gulag (ie under the regime of "submit your labour power to our authority or risk death from lack of resources") might not be an actual improvement? I kinda like that Soviet era mindset.
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Old 5th April 2018, 04:23 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Of course it is. The entire notion that the Western ruling class is some benevolent power structure whose only interest is in doing "good" and hence whose victims can only be regarded as the results of honest mistakes or letting down their guard is peak liberal apologetics. Yeltsin did exactly what was expected of him, change the power structure to capitalist standards so the ruling class could use (death from) unemployment, homelessness, etc as power levers over the working class.
Scratched out the extra bs.

The Western powers certainly wanted Russia to conform to their standards, but they never predicted the mess that would come out of not first establishing the rule of law and doing away with the wicked secret police. Look what it has produced today.

They welcomed the capitalism but had the other foot in the door. That awkward combo made it much worse than what it could have been, I mean I'm not saying neoliberal and Western capitalist standards are the best; far from it, so don't straw man me.
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Old 5th April 2018, 04:43 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Scratched out the extra bs.
No let's not scratch out some of the victimization vectors of capitalist power structures to make your argument work, let's scratch them right back in.

Quote:
The Western powers certainly wanted Russia to conform to their standards
Of course a capitalist ruling class would seek to enhance its exploitative power vis-a-vis the working class, such as through neo-colonialism and generally making sure the answer to "Whose means of production are these actually anyway?" is them.

Quote:
Look what it has produced today.
Yes, 6.5 million deaths under Obama and over 20 million per year globally.

Quote:
They welcomed the capitalism but had the other foot in the door.
What other foot in the door? If you're talking about the repressive state apparatus, that kinda comes with the capitalist territory, doesn't it? Suppose you're homeless and you move into some empty house, then Obama's police force would show up and threaten/employ violence to put you right back out, no? If you disobeyed a certain command from the representative of the owner of the mean of production you provide your labour power for, and they say "you are fired" yet you remain on the premises demanding your wage, then Obama's police force will show up and threaten/employ violence to put you out, no? And so on and so forth.
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Old 5th April 2018, 05:49 PM   #165
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C'mon...
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Old 6th April 2018, 03:12 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What other foot in the door? If you're talking about the repressive state apparatus, that kinda comes with the capitalist territory, doesn't it? Suppose you're homeless and you move into some empty house, then Obama's police force would show up and threaten/employ violence to put you right back out, no? If you disobeyed a certain command from the representative of the owner of the mean of production you provide your labour power for, and they say "you are fired" yet you remain on the premises demanding your wage, then Obama's police force will show up and threaten/employ violence to put you out, no? And so on and so forth.
No doubt. But to assert, as you are doing, "repressive state apparatus ... kinda comes with the capitalist territory, doesn't it?" In an argument defending Stalin, of all people, is mendacious or perverse. Under Stalin repression by the state apparatus attained an almost unbelievable degree of severity.

Changes in land tenure caused millions of deaths; the complete lack of press freedom ensured that no public mention of this was made; workers were constrained by labour books and internal passports; standards of housing, clothing and food supply were grossly debased; elections were a farce; masses of prisoners were enslaved on state construction projects, and at length the state and party machinery were purged, at the cost of hundreds of thousands of deaths and the persecution of millions.

Stalin was acclaimed as a demigod in terms that would have embarrassed Caligula.

To compare this with anything except Nazi crimes and excesses, or with the worst behaviour of imperialism in colonised territories, is entirely unwarranted.

Nothing in the politics of the constitutional European powers or the USA is equal to the atrocious system of oppression that characterised Stalin's despotism.

The Empire established by Stalin fell to pieces as soon as its subject populations realised that the Soviet government has lost the will to preserve it by force. Its client states at once defected to NATO and the EU, and its internal provinces seceded. And this happened without serious bloodshed, as barely a hand was raised in defence of the USSR, so thoroughly had its ideology been discredited.

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Old 6th April 2018, 07:03 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The Empire established by Stalin fell to pieces as soon as its subject populations realised that the Soviet government has lost the will to preserve it by force. Its client states at once defected to NATO and the EU, and its internal provinces seceded. And this happened without serious bloodshed, as barely a hand was raised in defence of the USSR, so thoroughly had its ideology been discredited.
Cool story bro.
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Old 6th April 2018, 07:41 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
C'mon...
You tried to engage in typical liberal apologetics (such as ascribing the destructive tendencies inherent in capitalism to a lack of some purported "rule of law") and it didn't fly, since anyone can easily determine that in places where liberals claim their "rule of law" does exist those destructive tendencies are simply implemented/enforced in its name (police enforcing homelessness, poverty, unemployment, etc).

When liberals bring up their "rule of law" the question is of course: the rule of whose law? And the answer being, as always, that of the ruling class - in this case the capitalist ruling class. And like with all liberal apologetic concepts, the "rule of law" concept is designed to hide class rule of society by pretending the "rule of law" is some sort of neutral arbiter standing above class divisions, rather than what it is: a way for giving the attack dogs of the bourgeoisie a thin veneer of legitimacy when enforcing class rule (such as giving them a thin veneer of legitimacy when they enforce homelessness by violently removing people from their homes etc).
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Old 6th April 2018, 08:45 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
... pretending the "rule of law" is some sort of neutral arbiter standing above class divisions, rather than what it is: a way for giving the attack dogs of the bourgeoisie a thin veneer of legitimacy when enforcing class rule (such as giving them a thin veneer of legitimacy when they enforce homelessness by violently removing people from their homes etc).
What gave the attack dogs of the soviet bureaucracy a veneer of legitimacy when they violently removed millions of "kulaks" and members of national minorities from their homes, and landed them in exile in remote areas?

Whatever it was, it was not the "rule of law" I agree. For there were no rules and no law except the tyrant's whim. Nor were there any democratic assemblies in which laws could be made, or independent mass media that could hold the executive to account for the legality of its conduct; or equitable courts of justice in which laws might be applied.
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Old 6th April 2018, 09:14 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You tried to engage in typical liberal apologetics (such as ascribing the destructive tendencies inherent in capitalism to a lack of some purported "rule of law") and it didn't fly, since anyone can easily determine that in places where liberals claim their "rule of law" does exist those destructive tendencies are simply implemented/enforced in its name (police enforcing homelessness, poverty, unemployment, etc).

When liberals bring up their "rule of law" the question is of course: the rule of whose law? And the answer being, as always, that of the ruling class - in this case the capitalist ruling class. And like with all liberal apologetic concepts, the "rule of law" concept is designed to hide class rule of society by pretending the "rule of law" is some sort of neutral arbiter standing above class divisions, rather than what it is: a way for giving the attack dogs of the bourgeoisie a thin veneer of legitimacy when enforcing class rule (such as giving them a thin veneer of legitimacy when they enforce homelessness by violently removing people from their homes etc).
Perhaps we're using different definitions of 'liberal'.

Are social democrats not left enough for you? I don't know what you're claiming anymore.
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Old 6th April 2018, 10:24 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Are social democrats not left enough for you?.
Fascism!
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Old 6th April 2018, 10:57 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Why would one pick a glass of cyanide over a glass of vodka? Remember, those 5-10 million under Yeltsin are in excess of the norm under socialism.



Liberal apologetics..."the West let down their guard"



What about Obama and his legacy of 6.5 million deaths?



And what acts exactly of Stalin would be "equally atrocious" as, for example, the Holocaust?

Whole populations were displaced and ethnic Russians moved in, so that these countries can never be the same again.
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Old 6th April 2018, 12:51 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Probably nothing, but Stalin wouldn't flinch at the level of torture and murder of Hitler and vice versa.

Reread please.

The West letting down their guard isn't "liberal apologetics". The general attitude in the West, particularly the U.S., was that this new post-Soviet Russia is starting fresh and we should back them fully. U.S. was eager to mend ties, unaware of the less tangible Soviet era mindset that still permeated the country.
I think the whole authoritarian mindset of many of the Russian people goes back before the Soviets to the days of the Czars...the Soviets just found ways to use if for their purposes...
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Old 6th April 2018, 12:57 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Whole populations were displaced and ethnic Russians moved in, so that these countries can never be the same again.
Not just ethnic Russians;the Soviets also engineered the explusion of almost all Germans from once was once East Prussia.Pomerenia and Sileisia to make room for the Poles which Russia was moving from what was Eastern Poland to 'Russianize" it. Ethnic Cleansing on a scale that Heinrich Himmler would have been impressed with.
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Old 6th April 2018, 01:09 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the whole authoritarian mindset of many of the Russian people goes back before the Soviets to the days of the Czars...the Soviets just found ways to use if for their purposes...
Definitely. I read somewhere that even the Russian provocation techniques go way back to Tsarist Russia, starting with fake sign boards written by the secret police, refining it into their own brand.
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Old 6th April 2018, 01:16 PM   #176
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One scene in the classic film "Dr Zhivago" says it perfectly;the scene where Zhivago's family is being expelled from their house and their good confiscated by a unruly mob during the Russian Revolution, ;when Zhivago's half brother ,who is a commissar enters, the mob goes in a second to cringing and bowing before the Commisar that same way they were doing just a couple of years before to a Czarist Aristocrat.
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Old 6th April 2018, 01:38 PM   #177
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Zhivago should have told them not to turn around, the Commissar's in town.
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Old 6th April 2018, 03:09 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not just ethnic Russians;the Soviets also engineered the explusion of almost all Germans from once was once East Prussia.Pomerenia and Sileisia to make room for the Poles which Russia was moving from what was Eastern Poland to 'Russianize" it. Ethnic Cleansing on a scale that Heinrich Himmler would have been impressed with.
Not only the USSR did that kind of thing. In 1945/1946, that is, prior to the 1948 Stalinist coup in Czechoslovakia the ethnic German population was largely expelled from the Sudetenland. Per wiki
In the months following the end of the war "wild" expulsions happened from May until August 1945. Czechoslovak President Edvard Beneš on October 28, 1945 called for the "final solution of the German question" (Czech: konečné řešení německé otázky) which would have to be solved by deportation of the ethnic Germans from Czechoslovakia. The expulsions were carried out by order of local authorities, mostly by groups of armed volunteers. However, in some cases it was initiated or pursued with the assistance of the regular army. Several thousand died violently during the expulsion and more died from hunger and illness as a consequence. The expulsion according to the Potsdam Conference proceeded from 25 January 1946 until October of that year. An estimated 1.6 million ethnic Germans were deported to the American zone of what would become West Germany. An estimated 800,000 were deported to the Soviet zone (in what would become East Germany).
ETA Wiki also notes that
The idea to expel the ethnic Germans from Czechoslovakia was supported by the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Britain's Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden. In 1942, Czechoslovak Government-in-Exile received the support of the United Kingdom for the expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia. In March 1943, President Beneš received Moscow's support. In June 1943, Beneš traveled to Washington, D.C. and obtained from President Franklin D. Roosevelt support for the Czechoslovak government's evolving expulsion plans.

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Old 6th April 2018, 05:06 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Perhaps we're using different definitions of 'liberal'.

Are social democrats not left enough for you? I don't know what you're claiming anymore.
You mean actual social democrats or those post-1980s/90s self-declared "social democrats" running most European social-democratic parties (aka liberals with red flags)? Since your argumentation has been purely liberal I'll assume it's the latter.
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Old 6th April 2018, 05:07 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Whole populations were displaced and ethnic Russians moved in, so that these countries can never be the same again.
"The same again" meaning ethnically pure (ie free from ethnic Russians)?
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Old 6th April 2018, 05:33 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
"The same again" meaning ethnically pure (ie free from ethnic Russians)?
What on earth do you mean? An accusation has been made that populations were expelled based on their ethnic origin. The question is, is that accusation true?

If Syrian Arabs are expelled from a locality and replaced by Jewish settlers, as has happened in Golan, and I deplore that, am I an antisemite?
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Old 6th April 2018, 05:38 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not just ethnic Russians;the Soviets also engineered the explusion of almost all Germans from once was once East Prussia.Pomerenia and Sileisia to make room for the Poles which Russia was moving from what was Eastern Poland to 'Russianize" it. Ethnic Cleansing on a scale that Heinrich Himmler would have been impressed with.
In that case, all the Allies agreed to that. I believe it was Churchill who suggested giving a part of Germany to Poland to make up for losses in the east to the Soviets.

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Old 6th April 2018, 05:40 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Changes in land tenure caused millions of deaths; the complete lack of press freedom ensured that no public mention of this was made; workers were constrained by labour books and internal passports; standards of housing, clothing and food supply were grossly debased; elections were a farce; masses of prisoners were enslaved on state construction projects, and at length the state and party machinery were purged, at the cost of hundreds of thousands of deaths and the persecution of millions.
Post war? Got a source for that figure?
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Old 6th April 2018, 05:47 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Post war? Got a source for that figure?
Post what war? Why "post war?"
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Old 6th April 2018, 06:15 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Post what war? Why "post war?"
Are you referring to the population transfers post WW2?
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Old 6th April 2018, 06:30 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You mean actual social democrats or those post-1980s/90s self-declared "social democrats" running most European social-democratic parties (aka liberals with red flags)? Since your argumentation has been purely liberal I'll assume it's the latter.


I'm sorry I don't pass your purity test. Carry on...
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Old 6th April 2018, 06:44 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Are you referring to the population transfers post WW2?
No. To collectivisation and the 1932/33 famine, and the expulsion of the "kulaks"; the postwar population transfers were a separate operation.

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Old 6th April 2018, 07:10 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post


I'm sorry I don't pass your purity test. Carry on...
But you did, pure liberalism it is.
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Old 7th April 2018, 07:37 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
"The same again" meaning ethnically pure (ie free from ethnic Russians)?
Yes, insofar as Russian culture, language and administration dominates in these countries.

I was surprised when I passed through Gdansk a couple of months ago to see many notices also in Russian.
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Old 7th April 2018, 08:47 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, insofar as Russian culture, language and administration dominates in these countries.

I was surprised when I passed through Gdansk a couple of months ago to see many notices also in Russian.
Wasn't the teaching of Russian mandated in Polish schools? From about 1955 to 1990 two generations would have learned Russian. But yes that is odd.
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Old 8th April 2018, 07:05 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, insofar as Russian culture, language and administration dominates in these countries.

I was surprised when I passed through Gdansk a couple of months ago to see many notices also in Russian.
Yes there are about 20,000 ethnic Russians in Poland. It used to be much more (over 100,000), so it seems at least Poland is on the right track with ethnic purification.
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Old 8th April 2018, 07:08 AM   #192
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Fascism!
No, fascism would be things like kayle's "documentary", what you and Venom are doing is just typical liberal cargo cult leftism - having some superficial similarities with the left without having any of the substance. Like Bernie Sanders calling himself a socialist while going on about his support for private business.
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Old 8th April 2018, 08:34 AM   #193
Wolrab
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After your first million killed, what does it matter?
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:46 PM   #194
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, fascism would be things like kayle's "documentary", what you and Venom are doing is just typical liberal cargo cult leftism - having some superficial similarities with the left without having any of the substance. Like Bernie Sanders calling himself a socialist while going on about his support for private business.
LOL. You know nearly nothing about my political leanings. Besides, if you don't consider social democrats fascist, how can you even call yourself a real leftist? I bet you sympathize with Bukharin too
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Old 8th April 2018, 05:28 PM   #195
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
LOL. You know nearly nothing about my political leanings. Besides, if you don't consider social democrats fascist, how can you even call yourself a real leftist? I bet you sympathize with Bukharin too
Blah blah blah. Your arguments have been purely liberal (such as opposition to a so-called "corporatism" rather than capitalism, and primacy of a so-called "rule of law" over class struggle) and not recognizably leftist at all. If you want to argue that you are a closet leftist who just happens to make liberal arguments then sure, be my guest. In the meantime "liberal arguments => liberal" still holds for me.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 8th April 2018, 06:22 PM   #196
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Blah blah blah. Your arguments have been purely liberal (such as opposition to a so-called "corporatism" rather than capitalism, and primacy of a so-called "rule of law" over class struggle) and not recognizably leftist at all. If you want to argue that you are a closet leftist who just happens to make liberal arguments then sure, be my guest. In the meantime "liberal arguments => liberal" still holds for me.
Please, the fake leftist here is you. Failure to recognize the importance of corporatism and the fact that social democrats are fascists shows that you're a phony.
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Old 8th April 2018, 07:07 PM   #197
Hercules56
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My newest meme is that Stalin wasn't anti-Nazi or anti-Fascist, he was simply anti-German.
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Old 8th April 2018, 10:25 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
My newest meme is that Stalin wasn't anti-Nazi or anti-Fascist, he was simply anti-German.

Hardly the sort of thing you could hold against him.

After all, everybody does it.
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Old 9th April 2018, 12:28 AM   #199
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At the risk of repeating myself, there's a difference between (1) planning to kill a bunch of people, and (2) simply not giving a flip if they die, and (3) not having the means to do anything about it. And it's downright brain-dead to pretend that they're the same.

Not to mention, ignoring a couple millennia of western justice thinking. Namely the element of INTENT, or "mens rea".

It's not even some fancy modern liberal idea. If you look as far back as, dunno, let's say Rome, since their justice is the basis for hours, you'll see the same. There's a difference between if I (1) kill my dad, or (2) don't care if he's dying, or (3) if I can't afford to heal him. The former was the most heinous crime on the list, while already the second was just dishonourable, but not an actual crime, while the third might actually get you a lot of sympathy. Dad would be just as dead in all 3 cases at the end of it, but there's a world of difference anyway.

The notion of simply adding up the numbers of people who died, and pretending that 1 million dead because Obama can't force the conservatives to give them free health care (and in some cases force them to take their anti-pyschotics, to be honest), is exactly the same as 1 million who didn't just happen to die in the GULAG under Stalin, but were sent there and had their rations vs work quota actually calculate to guarantee a calorie defficit either way... yeah, it's so stonking stupid it's not even funny.

Hell, even Soviet whataboutism at least pretended there are some mass lynchings or whatnot. Just pretending that 1 death if the government didn't give you free everything, is the exact same as 1 death if the NKVD rounded you up and shot you, is just too idiotic even for that propaganda machine.

But I guess not stupid enough for caveman, as usual...
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:12 AM   #200
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
At the risk of repeating myself, there's a difference between (1) planning to kill a bunch of people, and (2) simply not giving a flip if they die, and (3) not having the means to do anything about it. And it's downright brain-dead to pretend that they're the same.

Not to mention, ignoring a couple millennia of western justice thinking. Namely the element of INTENT, or "mens rea".

It's not even some fancy modern liberal idea. If you look as far back as, dunno, let's say Rome, since their justice is the basis for hours, you'll see the same. There's a difference between if I (1) kill my dad, or (2) don't care if he's dying, or (3) if I can't afford to heal him. The former was the most heinous crime on the list, while already the second was just dishonourable, but not an actual crime, while the third might actually get you a lot of sympathy. Dad would be just as dead in all 3 cases at the end of it, but there's a world of difference anyway.

The notion of simply adding up the numbers of people who died, and pretending that 1 million dead because Obama can't force the conservatives to give them free health care (and in some cases force them to take their anti-pyschotics, to be honest), is exactly the same as 1 million who didn't just happen to die in the GULAG under Stalin, but were sent there and had their rations vs work quota actually calculate to guarantee a calorie defficit either way... yeah, it's so stonking stupid it's not even funny.

Hell, even Soviet whataboutism at least pretended there are some mass lynchings or whatnot. Just pretending that 1 death if the government didn't give you free everything, is the exact same as 1 death if the NKVD rounded you up and shot you, is just too idiotic even for that propaganda machine.

But I guess not stupid enough for caveman, as usual...
To be fair to caveman1917 (I'm astounded that I'm typing this) we were discussing the particulars of the famine of the early 1930's, which isn't quite comparable to the GULAG system.

Obviously, people dying because of rapid reform, mass dispossession, etc without adequate infrastructure, grain exports to buy soon-to-be-obsolete tractors, and so forth, is still very different than people dying because of politically difficult-to-resolve health problems.

In fact the better analogue to those is the deaths that would occur if Obama had ignored the Rule of Law and actually tried to implement caveman1917's utopia
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