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Tags adolf hitler , Josef Stalin , Robert Conquest , Soviet Union history , Tim Snyder , World War II history

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Old 9th April 2018, 02:00 AM   #201
HansMustermann
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Even then, we're not just talking about people who starved.

Between '32 and '40, a DOCUMENTED 389,521 "kulaks" and their family members DIED in the GULAG. So, yeah, I'm not just bringing up the GULAG on a whim. It's how that famine was enforced.

And that's just those who died in GULAG. It's also not counting those tried and executed on the spot by NKVD troikas.

Also, during the later Great Purge, former kulaks and their family members accounted for 669,929 arrested and 376,202 executed.


I'm also not talking just incidental numbers. Stalin had the liquidation of the kulak class as an actual objective. Liquidating that class one way or another was an official policy since 1930. Whether the starvation was actually a part of that plan or not may be up for debate (well, mostly by revisionists), but the planned repression involved is not.

And the NKVD actually had QUOTAS. Which brings us back to my category (1). It was INTENDED that a certain number of people be purged per year. It wasn't side-effect of some economic conditions, or of inability to save them, nor even indifference to the number of deaths. There was a QUOTA of people INTENDED to be put through that suffering.


But even that brings us to a more fundamental problem with caveman's apologetics: why so much was exported: the quota system.

Sure, one can say that the government mis-planned the exports and reduced them the next year, bla, bla, bla, but the fact remains that there was a quota enforced at gun point. In just about any other society, if there's a crop failure, the farmers will just sell less of their crop. In the USSR you had to give X tons of your crop before it was even considered whether you still have anything left to eat or not. E.g., a collective farm had to hand over its quota first, and worry about people starving later.

And the quotas were a PREDICTABLE recipe for disaster, not some unpredictable coincidence. It's something you couldn't even claim as just negligence in western justice systems, because the yardstick of an average person of average intelligence COULD in fact predict that it made disaster inevitable. It being a fixed number that didn't leave the peasants any extra on an average year (having anything to sell made one a kulak, and we wouldn't want THOSE buggers) made it entirely predictable that the first year below average would automatically be a problem.

Also, one could point at some document or another that reformed this or that aspect of it (usually for the worse), but the fact remains that the state could and did have a procurement policy that boiled down to enforcing such quotas.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:21 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
At the risk of repeating myself, there's a difference between (1) planning to kill a bunch of people, and (2) simply not giving a flip if they die, and (3) not having the means to do anything about it. And it's downright brain-dead to pretend that they're the same.

Not to mention, ignoring a couple millennia of western justice thinking. Namely the element of INTENT, or "mens rea".

It's not even some fancy modern liberal idea. If you look as far back as, dunno, let's say Rome, since their justice is the basis for hours, you'll see the same. There's a difference between if I (1) kill my dad, or (2) don't care if he's dying, or (3) if I can't afford to heal him. The former was the most heinous crime on the list, while already the second was just dishonourable, but not an actual crime, while the third might actually get you a lot of sympathy. Dad would be just as dead in all 3 cases at the end of it, but there's a world of difference anyway.

The notion of simply adding up the numbers of people who died, and pretending that 1 million dead because Obama can't force the conservatives to give them free health care (and in some cases force them to take their anti-pyschotics, to be honest), is exactly the same as 1 million who didn't just happen to die in the GULAG under Stalin, but were sent there and had their rations vs work quota actually calculate to guarantee a calorie defficit either way... yeah, it's so stonking stupid it's not even funny.

Hell, even Soviet whataboutism at least pretended there are some mass lynchings or whatnot. Just pretending that 1 death if the government didn't give you free everything, is the exact same as 1 death if the NKVD rounded you up and shot you, is just too idiotic even for that propaganda machine.

But I guess not stupid enough for caveman, as usual...

To extend your analogy, if you (4) take your dad by the scruff of his neck and march him off his land and force him to leave all his property behind, to live in a strange country, then that is not far different from 'genociding' him (assuming the whole community suffer the same fate).So yeah, I have to agree with Kayle somewhat.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:23 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Hardly the sort of thing you could hold against him.

After all, everybody does it.
Well, they were rather nasty to the rest of us.
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Old 9th April 2018, 07:38 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Please, the fake leftist here is you. Failure to recognize the importance of corporatism and the fact that social democrats are fascists shows that you're a phony.
More typical liberal cargo cult leftism. How exactly were you expecting to get away with that charade other than with other political ignoramuses who actually think liberalism is leftist?
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Old 9th April 2018, 07:51 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
To be fair to caveman1917 (I'm astounded that I'm typing this) we were discussing the particulars of the famine of the early 1930's, which isn't quite comparable to the GULAG system.

Obviously, people dying because of rapid reform, mass dispossession, etc without adequate infrastructure, grain exports to buy soon-to-be-obsolete tractors, and so forth, is still very different than people dying because of politically difficult-to-resolve health problems.
Lying in service of capitalism (claiming that things like poverty are "politically difficult-to-resolve health problems" rather than an obvious result of the capitalist mode of production) is so leftist, all leftists do this all the time, we swear!

Quote:
In fact the better analogue to those is the deaths that would occur if Obama had ignored the Rule of Law and actually tried to implement caveman1917's utopia
And all leftists abhor the thought of the expropriation and redistribution of the means of production, especially if this might entail going outside the rule of the bourgeoisie's law. Yes, support for the private ownership of the means of production and bourgeois state rule is simply a core feature of leftism. The defense of private ownership of the means of production is just the defining feature of the political left, we swear!
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Old 9th April 2018, 08:06 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Even then, we're not just talking about people who starved.

Between '32 and '40, a DOCUMENTED 389,521 "kulaks" and their family members DIED in the GULAG. So, yeah, I'm not just bringing up the GULAG on a whim. It's how that famine was enforced.

And that's just those who died in GULAG. It's also not counting those tried and executed on the spot by NKVD troikas.

Also, during the later Great Purge, former kulaks and their family members accounted for 669,929 arrested and 376,202 executed.'
Those numbers sound pretty high - not impossible, but a bit bigger than I remember for "kulaks" alone. What is your source?
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Old 9th April 2018, 11:46 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Those numbers sound pretty high - not impossible, but a bit bigger than I remember for "kulaks" alone. What is your source?

Not sure what Hans used as a source.

The Wiki article on troikas has a section labeled "Secret Order № 00447 ó the "Kulak Operations"".

In it they have this to say;
Quote:
When Operation № 00447 was finally stopped, on November 17, 1938, by the Decree about Arrests, Prosecutor Supervision and Course of Investigation, issued jointly by the Sovnarkom and Central Committee of the CPSU, it is estimated that up to 767,000 persons had been condemned, of whom 387,000 had been executed by shooting.[7]
Somewhat higher even than the numbers Hans offered.

(If I did it right the link to the footnote [7] providing the source citation should be active.)
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Old 9th April 2018, 12:22 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not sure what Hans used as a source.

The Wiki article on troikas has a section labeled "Secret Order № 00447 ó the "Kulak Operations"".

In it they have this to say;
Somewhat higher even than the numbers Hans offered.

(If I did it right the link to the footnote [7] providing the source citation should be active.)
"Online encyclopedia on mass violence", yeah, I'd like something better than that. Never use Wiki for these purposes as such articles are almost always appropriated by people with agendas.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:01 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Lying in service of capitalism (claiming that things like poverty are "politically difficult-to-resolve health problems" rather than an obvious result of the capitalist mode of production) is so leftist, all leftists do this all the time, we swear!



And all leftists abhor the thought of the expropriation and redistribution of the means of production, especially if this might entail going outside the rule of the bourgeoisie's law. Yes, support for the private ownership of the means of production and bourgeois state rule is simply a core feature of leftism. The defense of private ownership of the means of production is just the defining feature of the political left, we swear!

You give up your land and property and liquid assets first, and then we'll take you seriously.
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:58 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
"Online encyclopedia on mass violence", yeah, I'd like something better than that. Never use Wiki for these purposes as such articles are almost always appropriated by people with agendas.


It's a source for a source. That's more than Hans offered.

What's the lowdown on Nicolas Wirth? Is he disreputable?
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Old 9th April 2018, 04:09 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
"Online encyclopedia on mass violence", yeah, I'd like something better than that. Never use Wiki for these purposes as such articles are almost always appropriated by people with agendas.
So? It's not like you can offer any guarantee of being agenda free yourself.
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Old 9th April 2018, 05:49 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.........!
Whats your problem with this? Does it conflict with your preconceived notions.
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Old 10th April 2018, 02:41 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So? It's not like you can offer any guarantee of being agenda free yourself.
I can, however, use scholarly works and observe the debate surrounding them.

Oh, but I guess you're one of those people who think all professors are communists.
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Old 10th April 2018, 02:45 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's a source for a source. That's more than Hans offered.

What's the lowdown on Nicolas Wirth? Is he disreputable?
Never heard the name and can't find any reference to who he is.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:09 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Whats your problem with this? Does it conflict with your preconceived notions.
There was a massive brawl on another thread where people were being branded 'Holocaust deniers' on the same issue.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:24 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Those numbers sound pretty high - not impossible, but a bit bigger than I remember for "kulaks" alone. What is your source?
Well, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak

Apparently based on the opened soviet archives after the fall of the iron curtain.

Note that those numbers I posted before are actually conservative, and only included recorded deaths in the Gulag. I'm not going for hyperbole. Quite the contrary.

If you want a more realistic thing, think this: about a THIRD of people recorded as sent to the GULAG don't actually appear recorded as being inmates there. So, worst case scenario, if all of those were killed, the number of deaths in the Gulag could actually be DOUBLE. Meaning a similar proportion for the Kulak numbers.

So, yeah, if you think the numbers I posted were high... yeah, it's probably much worse.

Be that as that may, if you add those just executed by the NKVD, the number of "kulaks" killed while enforcing that famine ends up anywhere between 700,000 (actual Soviet estimate) and 6 million. So, yeah, quite a bit higher than what I posted before. Let's go with the Soviet official numbers. I hope our resident apologist of Stalin isn't going to contest those?

That's 700,000 people killed for being not even "rich", but really anywhere above the bare subsistence line. That's not deaths someone didn't care to prevent (like in Churchill's case), that's not deaths someone could not pass the laws to prevent (which is what caveman apparently imputes to Obama), that's people flat out killed by the government. And that is HOW exporting food in the middle of that famine was enforced.
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:41 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak

Apparently based on the opened soviet archives after the fall of the iron curtain.

Note that those numbers I posted before are actually conservative, and only included recorded deaths in the Gulag. I'm not going for hyperbole. Quite the contrary.

If you want a more realistic thing, think this: about a THIRD of people recorded as sent to the GULAG don't actually appear recorded as being inmates there. So, worst case scenario, if all of those were killed, the number of deaths in the Gulag could actually be DOUBLE. Meaning a similar proportion for the Kulak numbers.

So, yeah, if you think the numbers I posted were high... yeah, it's probably much worse.

Be that as that may, if you add those just executed by the NKVD, the number of "kulaks" killed while enforcing that famine ends up anywhere between 700,000 (actual Soviet estimate) and 6 million. So, yeah, quite a bit higher than what I posted before. Let's go with the Soviet official numbers. I hope our resident apologist of Stalin isn't going to contest those?

That's 700,000 people killed for being not even "rich", but really anywhere above the bare subsistence line. That's not deaths someone didn't care to prevent (like in Churchill's case), that's not deaths someone could not pass the laws to prevent (which is what caveman apparently imputes to Obama), that's people flat out killed by the government. And that is HOW exporting food in the middle of that famine was enforced.
Source as in scholarly literature. Sorry, Wikipedia is useless for this and the Snyderesque "citing to the last digit" doesn't help credibility.. Soviet death tolls are in eternal dispute. Also were they accused of being Kulaks in relation to the early 1930's collectivization? Because I seem to remember Kulak death and deportation tolls in the 100,000-200,000 range. However I don't have a good source at my fingertips nor do I know of any good articles off-hand. I have JSTOR access though if you know of any good articles.
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:53 AM   #218
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The eecutive order to eliminate the kulaks as a class is from January 1930.
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:59 AM   #219
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I found one of J Arch Getty's examinations of the records:

https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&sourc...yHRZi9HeMNap2t (PDF!)

Through subtraction we end up with 120,000 executions from 1921 to 1936 inclusive. I can't find the total number of GULAGdeaths in the pre-war years though, just for 37-38, and I'm in a hurry. Will look closer later!
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:00 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The eecutive order to eliminate the kulaks as a class is from January 1930.
Yes, but Kulak waa a catch-all in later unrelated purGes IIRC.
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:06 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I can, however, use scholarly works and observe the debate surrounding them.

Oh, but I guess you're one of those people who think all professors are communists.
I was going to point out that your remarks about Wikipedia seemed like well poisoning. But this works just as well. You're not doing a very good job of establishing that you work to a higher standard. Maybe you should go back to letting your sources and your arguments speak for themselves, and let your readers decide who has the highest standard of scholarship.
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:09 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was going to point out that your remarks about Wikipedia seemed like well poisoning. But this works just as well. You're not doing a very good job of establishing that you work to a higher standard. Maybe you should go back to letting your sources and your arguments speak for themselves, and let your readers decide who has the highest standard of scholarship.
No, I will continue to speak my mind about good and bad academics, thank you, and point out the problems of just "looking at Wikipedia".
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:14 AM   #223
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Well, a good dose of skepticism is indeed in order for Wikipedia, but I'm not going to buy the book they link as a source just for a thread on a random board. You're more likely to find that level of scholarship on a proper history board, I would say.
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:25 AM   #224
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I would add though, that in the end the exact execution numbers don't really matter for what I was trying to say. Even 120,000 are more than enough to scare the crap out of people and make them hand over the demanded quotas of grain. Which I'm saying is it's how that famine was enforced.

Again, imagine that a complete crop failure were to hit the USA or UK or whatever. I think you'll find that the farmers would be the last to starve, because they'll just not sell as much food if they didn't produce as much as expected. In Soviet Russia, well, it was literally an "in Soviet Russia" joke: it was completely the other way around. In the first year you actually had city people send some food to their peasant relatives.

That doesn't happen unless there is enough repression to make the case that you better hand over the food, or else.

Whether it takes 100,000 deaths or 700,000 deaths to scare people that much, is a good topic for an academic discussion, no doubt, but either figure still points out at the state's involvement in how those peasants ended up starving.
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:46 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I would add though, that in the end the exact execution numbers don't really matter for what I was trying to say. Even 120,000 are more than enough to scare the crap out of people and make them hand over the demanded quotas of grain. Which I'm saying is it's how that famine was enforced.

Again, imagine that a complete crop failure were to hit the USA or UK or whatever. I think you'll find that the farmers would be the last to starve, because they'll just not sell as much food if they didn't produce as much as expected. In Soviet Russia, well, it was literally an "in Soviet Russia" joke: it was completely the other way around. In the first year you actually had city people send some food to their peasant relatives.

That doesn't happen unless there is enough repression to make the case that you better hand over the food, or else.

Whether it takes 100,000 deaths or 700,000 deaths to scare people that much, is a good topic for an academic discussion, no doubt, but either figure still points out at the state's involvement in how those peasants ended up starving.
The reason that the famine mostly hit grain-producing regions is down to the way the grain distribution system was set up. Since it would be pretty stupid to first transport all the grain to a central reserve and then transport part of it straight back where it came from for consumption, the distribution/accounting system was largely divided in a private stock and public stock. Procurement was set up to take the required public stocks from the harvest yield, while leaving the consumption requirements for the grain-producing regions in private stock. Basically:

Yield = Public + Private
Yield - Public = Private

Since there are no direct measurements for Private (it was calculated from Yield and Public) it's easy to see what's going to happen if the real yield is much lower than the yield used in that calculation. All of the error will get put in Private (ie the consumption stocks for the grain-producing regions) and that will be the one with the highest discrepancy between real and calculated values.

Which eventually led to it being the grain-producing regions which ended up being hit hardest by the famine, but people were starving on the streets of Moscow too - just not as much.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:10 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
No, I will continue to speak my mind about good and bad academics, thank you, and point out the problems of just "looking at Wikipedia".
Will you withdraw your personal attack on me?
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:58 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I would add though, that in the end the exact execution numbers don't really matter for what I was trying to say. Even 120,000 are more than enough to scare the crap out of people and make them hand over the demanded quotas of grain. Which I'm saying is it's how that famine was enforced.

Again, imagine that a complete crop failure were to hit the USA or UK or whatever. I think you'll find that the farmers would be the last to starve, because they'll just not sell as much food if they didn't produce as much as expected. In Soviet Russia, well, it was literally an "in Soviet Russia" joke: it was completely the other way around. In the first year you actually had city people send some food to their peasant relatives.

That doesn't happen unless there is enough repression to make the case that you better hand over the food, or else.

Whether it takes 100,000 deaths or 700,000 deaths to scare people that much, is a good topic for an academic discussion, no doubt, but either figure still points out at the state's involvement in how those peasants ended up starving.
Yes, absolutely. I was just wondering because the numbers seemed off to me.
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Old 10th April 2018, 07:58 AM   #228
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1. That's why I was calling it PREDICTABLE by an average person of average intelligence that it was a famine waiting to happen in message #201 I.e., it being totally a surprise and totally not the responsibility of those who set up the system would not fly in any court of justice in the west, no matter how left, right, conservative or liberal the country.

2. Nevertheless, you need enough repression for that to work that way in a famine. People don't go below the subsistence line for the sake of maths. They're not going to just go, "oh well, if that's how they wrote the formula, I guess I'll just starve. You can't argue with maths."

Hunger is one of the top priority needs in Maslow's pyramid, and self preservation is the top priority of any animal, not just humans. If it's just some comrade's maths that stands in the way of your eating, you'll just keep your grain or take it back, thank you very much.

What DOES however get people to think twice about self-preservation is a more immediate threat to their self-preservation. Like some comrades from the NKVD that can execute you if you try.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:24 AM   #229
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
@caveman1917
1. That's why I was calling it PREDICTABLE by an average person of average intelligence that it was a famine waiting to happen in message #201 I.e., it being totally a surprise and totally not the responsibility of those who set up the system would not fly in any court of justice in the west, no matter how left, right, conservative or liberal the country.

2. Nevertheless, you need enough repression for that to work that way in a famine. People don't go below the subsistence line for the sake of maths. They're not going to just go, "oh well, if that's how they wrote the formula, I guess I'll just starve. You can't argue with maths."

Hunger is one of the top priority needs in Maslow's pyramid, and self preservation is the top priority of any animal, not just humans. If it's just some comrade's maths that stands in the way of your eating, you'll just keep your grain or take it back, thank you very much.

What DOES however get people to think twice about self-preservation is a more immediate threat to their self-preservation. Like some comrades from the NKVD that can execute you if you try.
Yes, how dare they not have starved the poor instead, it's an outrage!

Under famine conditions the price of food increases rapidly, being highly profitable for the sellers and leaving the rich buyers with plenty of food, while disproportionately starving the poor who can't afford any food.

Compare for example possible different approaches to the issue of bottled water after hurricane Katrina. The Soviet approach would have been to expropriate the water and try to distribute it as best as they could to everyone, the capitalist one would be to sell it to whoever could afford it. As you say, the Soviet approach would not fly in any capitalist court of justice in the west, since it violates the so-called right to property - and that exactly at the time when the property would be most valuable to the victim of the property crime (99$ for a bottle of water or something IIRC).
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:30 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes, how dare they not have starved the poor instead, it's an outrage!
Do we know that the workers on the collective farms weren't, in fact, the poor?

In any case, starving the people to death who actually produce the food doesn't seem viable in the long term.

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Old 10th April 2018, 08:44 AM   #231
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Do we know that the workers on the collective farms weren't, in fact, the poor?
The category only really makes sense under capitalism, the Soviet system was highly egalitarian. Not perfectly egalitarian, but at least to such a degree that categories of "rich" vs "poor" don't really have the meaning they do under capitalism. Food was distributed based on need rather than monetary compensation.

Quote:
In any case, starving the people to death who actually produce the food doesn't seem viable in the long term.
Except that of course nobody was trying to starve anyone, quite the opposite. Overestimation of the harvest yield, and the fact that private stocks were indirectly determined by subtracting public procurements from yield estimation led to the grain-producing regions being the ones who ended up taking a disproportionate hit.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:49 AM   #232
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The category only really makes sense under capitalism, the Soviet system was highly egalitarian.
If so, it was a poor choice of term on your part.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Food was distributed based on need rather than monetary compensation.
Clearly not, if the system was such that an entire sector of workers was starved.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Except that of course nobody was trying to starve anyone, quite the opposite.
Irrelevant, really; a system that has the effect of starving the people producing the food doesn't seem viable in the long term.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:52 AM   #233
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If so, it was a poor choice of term on your part.


Quote:
Clearly not, if the system was such that an entire sector of workers was starved.
Why should the industrial workers have starved instead?

Quote:
Irrelevant, really; a system that has the effect of starving the people producing the food doesn't seem viable in the long term.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:03 AM   #234
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Why should the industrial workers have starved instead?
Strawman. You said food was distributed based on need; if any sector of workers received less, this was clearly functionally not the case.

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Old 10th April 2018, 09:13 AM   #235
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Strawman. You said food was distributed based on need; if any sector of workers received less, this was clearly functionally not the case.
I never said they had enough food, though, did I? But at least they tried to keep everyone fed by distributing it based on need, as opposed to the proposed alternative approach which apparently would "fly in any court in the West" - ie taking advantage of the situation to starve the poor for profit (aka a "free market").

Furthermore, there are probably thousands of primary sources describing the food distribution system in the USSR, so how about your next post actually contains something better than a simplistic non-sequitur?
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Last edited by caveman1917; 10th April 2018 at 09:16 AM. Reason: probably not actually millions
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:26 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
[...]so how about your next post actually contains something better than a simplistic non-sequitur?
Something substantial and relevant like " Why should the industrial workers have starved instead? "? Or "Yes, how dare they not have starved the poor instead, it's an outrage!" perhaps?

It's not a non-sequitur to say that the system used was obviously flawed; even based on what you've said about it in-thread it was obviously flawed. The only remaining relevant question is whether that flaw arose from incompetence or malice.

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Old 10th April 2018, 09:31 AM   #237
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Something substantial and relevant like " Why should the industrial workers have starved instead?
Yes exactly, I said that food was distributed based on need. You claimed this was false since it was mainly peasants who ended up starving. The only possibility is that you somehow think that for some reason peasants have a higher need for food than industrial workers. Otherwise starving the industrial workers instead doesn't really change anything regarding fulfillment of needs, does it? So the question stands: Why should the industrial workers have starved instead?

Quote:
It's not a non-sequitur to say that the system used was obviously flawed
Stop lying. You claimed that food wasn't distributed based on need because some people ended up starving - that's a non-sequitur.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:36 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes exactly, I said that food was distributed based on need. You claimed this was false since it was mainly peasants who ended up starving. The only possibility is that you somehow think that for some reason peasants have a higher need for food than industrial workers.
No, that's a ridiculous deduction to draw. If it was mainly the peasants who ended up starving, then clearly the peasants were allocated less food relative to their needs than the industrial workers; so food was not being effectively allocated based on need. Your claim that this indicates that peasants have a higher need for food is... now what was the phrase? Ah yes, a "simplistic non sequitur".

And since the peasants were the members of the society who had less food than anyone else, to the point of starvation, that would make them, funtionally speaking, members of "the poor".

Dave
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:48 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If it was mainly the peasants who ended up starving, then clearly the peasants were allocated less food relative to their needs than the industrial workers; so food was not being effectively allocated based on need.
1. Show which allocation increases total need fulfillment (ie "effective").

2. Explain your proposed distribution system and show that it produces the allocation in point 1.

3. Show that capitalism (which is what the comparison is with, after all) produces an allocation such as in 1.

Quote:
Your claim that this indicates that peasants have a higher need for food is... now what was the phrase? Ah yes, a "simplistic non sequitur".
Your claim that taking food from some groups of workers to give it to others, and starving the former instead of the latter, would increase total need fulfillment only works if that latter group has a higher inherent need for food.

Quote:
And since the peasants were the members of the society who had less food than anyone else, to the point of starvation, that would make them, funtionally speaking, members of "the poor".
No it doesn't.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:11 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There was a massive brawl on another thread where people were being branded 'Holocaust deniers' on the same issue.
What issue?
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