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Tags adolf hitler , Josef Stalin , Robert Conquest , Soviet Union history , Tim Snyder , World War II history

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Old 10th April 2018, 11:38 AM   #241
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No, that's a ridiculous deduction to draw. If it was mainly the peasants who ended up starving, then clearly the peasants were allocated less food relative to their needs than the industrial workers; so food was not being effectively allocated based on need. Your claim that this indicates that peasants have a higher need for food is... now what was the phrase? Ah yes, a "simplistic non sequitur".

And since the peasants were the members of the society who had less food than anyone else, to the point of starvation, that would make them, funtionally speaking, members of "the poor".

Dave
Be careful with your terminology. Serfdom was abolished in Russia in 1861 by Czar Alexander II.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:40 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
What issue?
'Who killed more, Stalin or Hitler?'
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:27 PM   #243
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I hope this does not get deleted.
Even the most ultra Kremlin trolls here do not try to whitewash Stalin. Yes, they maintain that it was not occupation but incorporation (as if it helps us in any way). But even they do not dare deny that it was genocide.
Sitting in a country far away (not even geographically, but politically) and nitpicking about whether numbers on wikipedia are more accurate than in some foreign historian's book...
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:32 PM   #244
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For you, we are just numbers. oinflated, exaggerated, how dare you say smth bad about Stalin.
For us - it was our people who died. hundreds of thousands. in a country of 2 million. the same in in our neighbouring countries.

I can imagine some here mubling about how Pol Pot actually was quite nice. I don't know if there are Kampucheans here to make people who have no idea about reality realise the reality...
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:45 PM   #245
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someone here called all east-europeans far-right nazis. I am centrist and liberal. no wonder people who do not understand how ****** up was the soviet regime, hastily label others they do not like



Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rule 10. Do not attempt to evade the autocensor.

Last edited by Loss Leader; 10th April 2018 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:42 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes, how dare they not have starved the poor instead, it's an outrage!
Considering that any peasant who had even anything to sell or even had a metal roof qualified as a kulak, yes, they DID starve the poor. And frankly, throughout the eastern block, the peasants tended to be the poorest all the way to '89.

Or are you saying that the peasants who starved in the '30's were rich? You know, maybe so stinking rich that THEY COULDN'T AFFORD FOOD?

So even as attempts to whitewash Stalin go, that's frankly utter nonsense Yes he did starve the poor. Who else do you think starved?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Under famine conditions the price of food increases rapidly, being highly profitable for the sellers and leaving the rich buyers with plenty of food, while disproportionately starving the poor who can't afford any food.
1. If the price of a commodity goes up, that stimulates IMPORTS in a free market, yes? Because there's not only a local internal market, but also a world market. If people in Russia are willing to pay more for wheat, then Canada (which supplied more than a third of the world's grain exports in the interwwar period) would prefer to sell to Russia than to some country that's raising tariffs in the same period, yes?

That is, unless an idiotic regime is blocking that. And in fact, actually exporting some.


2. As opposed to... what? Forced EXPORTING food in the middle of a famine?

Whatever one can say about inequal distribution of a small pie among the poor, taking half the pie away from them doesn't actually improve anything. Again, even as apologetics and whitewashing goes, the idea that it's better to take away a chunk of the food in a famine sure beats letting them distribute it inequally is... nonsense.

If you leave less calories to be consumed in the country, you have just made the problem worse by any sane reconing.


3. The wages under Stalin were planned, yes? So who were those rich who could afford to buy all those millions of tons of grain if Stalin hadn't exported it? The system was not supposed to produce that kind of a rich vs poor discrepancy, yes? If that was the case in your imaginary world, then the whole communism thing had long failed, innit?


4. The idea that small-time peasants get rich in a famine is nonsense. Is the dusbowl in the USA remembered for making farmers rich? Or WTH?

The thing is, looking just at the price is innumeracy at best. What makes an actual difference is the price TIMES quantity MINUS expenses. And once you subtract what they must eat, they're left with disproportionately less to sell.

And you'll find that prices don't actually move all that much, IF there is a world market.

The deficit in Russia was not even going to put a dent in the quantities that Canada, Argentina, Australia and the United States were willing to sell. Those four together accounted for 90% of the food exports in the world at the time. Moving demand a bit isn't going to move prices dramatically, if the difference is a small fraction of the supply, and the supply is actually growing.

And in fact the supply side was having a surplus at the time, since a lot of their traditional customers were rising customs to protect their local agriculture.

But at any rate, if the prices raised, dunno, let's say to double, but you're left with a quarter as much to sell, no, you won't get rich.
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Old 11th April 2018, 12:54 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Your claim that taking food from some groups of workers to give it to others, and starving the former instead of the latter, would increase total need fulfillment only works if that latter group has a higher inherent need for food.
Note, of course, that "taking food from some groups of workers to give it to others, and starving the former instead of the latter," which you've correctly identified as an ineffective way to increase total need fulfillment, is precisely what the Soviet food distribution system did in this instance. I think you're arguing against yourself here.

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Old 11th April 2018, 06:19 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There was a massive brawl on another thread where people were being branded 'Holocaust deniers' on the same issue.
Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
What issue?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Who killed more, Stalin or Hitler?'
The only one who got branded a Holocaust denier was Vixen herself, who denied the existence of roughly half of Hitler's victims, roughly speaking the non-Jewish half. Apparently, it is really important for her that Stalin be the bigger culprit.

This is the other thread. Read at your own peril.
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Old 11th April 2018, 08:23 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
I hope this does not get deleted.
Even the most ultra Kremlin trolls here do not try to whitewash Stalin. Yes, they maintain that it was not occupation but incorporation (as if it helps us in any way). But even they do not dare deny that it was genocide.
Sitting in a country far away (not even geographically, but politically) and nitpicking about whether numbers on wikipedia are more accurate than in some foreign historian's book...
Originally Posted by kayle View Post
For you, we are just numbers. oinflated, exaggerated, how dare you say smth bad about Stalin.
For us - it was our people who died. hundreds of thousands. in a country of 2 million. the same in in our neighbouring countries.

I can imagine some here mubling about how Pol Pot actually was quite nice. I don't know if there are Kampucheans here to make people who have no idea about reality realise the reality...
Originally Posted by kayle View Post
someone here called all east-europeans far-right nazis. I am centrist and liberal. no wonder people who do not understand how ****** up was the soviet regime, hastily label others they do not like



Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rule 10. Do not attempt to evade the autocensor.
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Old 11th April 2018, 08:30 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
That is, unless an idiotic regime is blocking that.
True, the idiotic regimes in the USA, UK, etc put various trade embargoes in place against the USSR.

Quote:
And in fact, actually exporting some.
What other payment method do you propose they used? Here is a list of available payment methods for foreign trade (as put in place by the idiotic capitalist regimes): Grain.

Are you suggesting they should have bought grain and paid for it with grain?
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Old 11th April 2018, 08:41 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Note, of course, that "taking food from some groups of workers to give it to others, and starving the former instead of the latter," which you've correctly identified as an ineffective way to increase total need fulfillment, is precisely what the Soviet food distribution system did in this instance. I think you're arguing against yourself here.

Dave


There is a big difference between, during a natural disaster, distributing resources to try and keep everyone supplied according to need but eventually failing to do so, and distributing resources to try and make a profit out of the situation and eventually starving many more people while distributing lavish amounts of resources to a small set of rich people (even 99$ for a bottle of water isn't a problem for a millionaire to buy himself an entire pallet of).

How liberals think that proudly proclaiming that in a Western court of capitalist justice the former approach wouldn't fly but the latter would is supposed to stop people from recognizing so-called "courts of justice" under capitalism as the shams they are is quite unclear.
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Old 11th April 2018, 08:54 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Are you suggesting they should have bought grain and paid for it with grain?
No, like a capitalist nation state the Soviets could have used part of their gold reserves.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:06 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
There is a big difference between, during a natural disaster, distributing resources to try and keep everyone supplied according to need but eventually failing to do so, and distributing resources to try and make a profit out of the situation and eventually starving many more people while distributing lavish amounts of resources to a small set of rich people (even 99$ for a bottle of water isn't a problem for a millionaire to buy himself an entire pallet of).
And there is a big difference between what your contention here is (the Soviets took the grain and attempted to divide it proportionately amongst the Soviet state) and what happened.

The Soviet plan was to require each collective farm to produce a specific quantity of produce and to provide it to the state for distribution to the rest of the state (the quota). The Collective was able to keep grain for its own needs AFTER the quota had been met.

When the crop failure happened, instead of reducing the quota to accommodate the reality of less food being available, State planners required that the quota be met in full, reducing the surplus (if any) for the collectives to use to feed themselves. The enforcement of the quotas by force ensured that the crop failure became a famine with the effects most strongly felt by the people actually producing the food.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:10 AM   #254
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Uh, the soviet union was also exporting a lot oil, among other things. In fact, enough to be worth building the Grozny-Tuapse Pipeline.

Also ore and metals. Chromium for example.

If the west was embargoing the USSR, they really sucked at embargo, looking at the hundreds of thousands of tons of refined and unrefined oil they were selling per year. I don't have a comparison at hand, but at a guess, it looks like they were probably number 2 after the USA (albeit at quite a distance), as oil exporters go.

So even without touching the gold reserves, yes, they COULD afford to import some grain instead of exporting it in the middle of a famine.

So the argument is... what? That you only need to not know history or economy, to be a Stalin apologist?
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:14 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
And there is a big difference between what your contention here is (the Soviets took the grain and attempted to divide it proportionately amongst the Soviet state) and what happened.

The Soviet plan was to require each collective farm to produce a specific quantity of produce and to provide it to the state for distribution to the rest of the state (the quota). The Collective was able to keep grain for its own needs AFTER the quota had been met.

When the crop failure happened, instead of reducing the quota to accommodate the reality of less food being available, State planners required that the quota be met in full, reducing the surplus (if any) for the collectives to use to feed themselves. The enforcement of the quotas by force ensured that the crop failure became a famine with the effects most strongly felt by the people actually producing the food.
I would add that when I say that the soviet quotas were a predictable disaster waiting to happen, because that exact issue had even been figured out by the ancient Egyptians some 5000 years before. The Ma'at rules (justice, order, proper social behaviour, you get the idea) actually dealt with exactly that: if the crop is low, reduce the amount taken in taxes.

We're talking some 5000 years of recorded history, and people knowing how to deal with droughts and crop failures so they don't lose a big chunk of their peasants. Only for Stalin it's apparently excusable if he sets up a system that everyone else avoided for 5000 years straight.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:46 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
When the crop failure happened, instead of reducing the quota to accommodate the reality of less food being available, State planners required that the quota be met in full, reducing the surplus (if any) for the collectives to use to feed themselves.
Quota were successively reduced, this has already been shown earlier in the thread. Your arguments are required to account for all the facts already established in the thread (including all facts established in the references that have been provided throughout the thread) or don't expect me to bother with already-refuted lies.

Quote:
The enforcement of the quotas by force ensured that the crop failure became a famine with the effects most strongly felt by the people actually producing the food.
So another one for the "They should have starved the industrial workers instead" position?
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:52 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Uh, the soviet union was also exporting a lot oil, among other things. In fact, enough to be worth building the Grozny-Tuapse Pipeline.

Also ore and metals. Chromium for example.

If the west was embargoing the USSR, they really sucked at embargo, looking at the hundreds of thousands of tons of refined and unrefined oil they were selling per year. I don't have a comparison at hand, but at a guess, it looks like they were probably number 2 after the USA (albeit at quite a distance), as oil exporters go.

So even without touching the gold reserves, yes, they COULD afford to import some grain instead of exporting it in the middle of a famine.

So the argument is... what? That you only need to not know history or economy, to be a Stalin apologist?
For example the UK instituted a trade embargo against the USSR during the famine months[*] from April 1933 to July 1933.

* almost all of the famine-related deaths were in the last few months before the next harvest (ie May to July 1933).

ETA: which (deaths highly concentrated at the very end) is also consistent with running out of food while trying to distribute it according to need, as opposed to the capitalist method of distributing it according to profit where immediate price increases would cause the poorest to start starving much sooner.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:55 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
LOL. This takes the cake coming from someone who tried to get away with citing Tauger for views he doesn't express, then calling it citing 'a group of primary sources'.

Simply stringing together a horribly shoddy argument (or rather, repeating an argument you dug up somewhere when you didn't get away with your Tauger cite) from some primary source you can't even read doesn't make you a historian.
Hey, look what I found your Authority FigureTM saying in 2002:
Originally Posted by Mark Tauger
The evidence that I have published and other evidence, including recent Ukrainian document collections, show that the famine developed out of a shortage and pervaded the Soviet Union, and that the regime organized a massive program of rationing and relief in towns and in villages, including in Ukraine, but simply did not have enough food.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:34 AM   #259
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It's also interesting to note that under capitalism the killing of the poor doesn't even require a natural disaster or general lack of available resources, it is a core feature of it (some millions under Obama). It is one of the ways a capitalist regime maintains its power over the working class, by being able to threaten with poverty (such as through unemployment, ie the concept of "firing" workers) any workers who refuse to carry out their commands over those workers' labour. A bit like the Gulag system in the USSR.
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Old 11th April 2018, 01:46 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Hey, look what I found your Authority FigureTM saying in 2002:
Cute bit of quote mining.

Quote:
The evidence that I have published and other evidence, including recent Ukrainian document collections, show that the famine developed out of a shortage and pervaded the Soviet Union, and that the regime organized a massive program of rationing and relief in towns and in villages, including in Ukraine, but simply did not have enough food. This is why the Soviet famine, an immense crisis and tragedy of the Soviet economy, was not in the same category as the Nazis' mass murders, which had no agricultural or other economic basis. This evidence also explains why it is false to describe me and other Western scholars as "deniers" of the famine. There is nothing "immoral" or "absurd" about this evidence, which comes directly from Ukrainians and other villagers at the time, and it is in no way comparable to a denial of the Holocaust.
He is arguing against the accusation that the famine was akin to the Holocaust and that he is a Holocaust denier. Nowhere does he say that poor Soviet policies were not a major cause, merely hhat it was not intentional.

I would like to remind you that it was you, not me, who first brought up Tauger as an authority figure.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:17 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I would like to remind you that it was you, not me, who first brought up Tauger as an authority figure.
You are the one appealing to authority, not me. I'm just having some fun pointing out that not only you can't back up your theory with evidence or defend it from questioning, but quoting later statements by the authority figure you apparently latched yourself onto (in response to me quoting one of his works) which contradict your theory of it being the CMA (out of all things!) which caused the famine:
Originally Posted by Tauger
the 1933 famine {...} resulted from a shortage due to natural disasters
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Old 11th April 2018, 03:23 PM   #262
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Arguing with a convinced hardline Marxist is like arguing with a convinced hard Line religious believer. Both just ignore any evidence that threatens their dogmatic beliefs.
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Old 11th April 2018, 07:48 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I would add that when I say that the soviet quotas were a predictable disaster waiting to happen, because that exact issue had even been figured out by the ancient Egyptians some 5000 years before. The Ma'at rules (justice, order, proper social behaviour, you get the idea) actually dealt with exactly that: if the crop is low, reduce the amount taken in taxes.

We're talking some 5000 years of recorded history, and people knowing how to deal with droughts and crop failures so they don't lose a big chunk of their peasants. Only for Stalin it's apparently excusable if he sets up a system that everyone else avoided for 5000 years straight.

Well, except maybe for the Brits, since that's pretty much exactly what they did to their Irish tenants for half a decade in the 1840s.

That only caused the deaths of a million or so. Chump change, I guess.

And they were all just Irish, anyway. So, many Brits, especially the ones with money and land interests there, saw it as a net improvement.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:54 PM   #264
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Well, let me amend that: everyone avoided for their own people. People you treated as disposable colonial savages tended to be just that: disposable.

Sadly, the Irish did get treated like that in the 19'th century.

I hardly think though that it's an excuse for Stalin to be just on par with early 19'th century ruthless colonialism, when dealing with Ukrainians. The official ideology was supposed to be (A) a lot more egalitarian, and (B) an improvement over 20'th century capitalism, not a century behind it.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:05 PM   #265
HansMustermann
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Yes, dearie, the thing that started the ball rolling was natural. It's how Stalin went from there that is the problem.

The thing is, we actually have comparable stuff happening in other places, that was not handled the same way. E.g., for all your rabid condemning capitalism... actually, yeah LET'S compare it exactly to capitalism. The USA had the dustbowl disaster in the same time frame.

Guess what, silly?

A) no, the peasants didn't become stinking rich, without daddy Stalin forcing them to hand over the grain at gun point, but

B) the only notable increase in cause of death during the Great Depression was actually suicide. You didn't have millions starving to death. You had malnourishment, yes, but not people actually starving to death. The USA just went from a major food exporter to a slight food importer for a couple of years, and people survived.

Turns out that without Stalin forcing you to EXPORT the food, a natural disaster isn't NEARLY as huge a problem.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:46 PM   #266
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, let me amend that: everyone avoided for their own people. People you treated as disposable colonial savages tended to be just that: disposable.

Sadly, the Irish did get treated like that in the 19'th century.

I hardly think though that it's an excuse for Stalin to be just on par with early 19'th century ruthless colonialism, when dealing with Ukrainians. The official ideology was supposed to be (A) a lot more egalitarian, and (B) an improvement over 20'th century capitalism, not a century behind it.

I can't imagine what it was that I wrote to give you the idea I was making excuses for anyone, least of all Stalin.

I suspect that ruthless colonialism, or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof had more than a little bit to do with the Russian treatment of the Ukraine.

Which century it was notwithstanding.

Purported ideals and official ideology are often not reflected in actual practice when it comes to governments, most especially totalitarian ones, and maybe more so ones which view themselves as the heirs of a revolutionary background.

Do you believe that their "official ideology" made a great deal of difference to the decisions they made which resulted in the starvation of Ukrainians?
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Old 12th April 2018, 01:15 AM   #267
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Well, not as much gave me the idea that you're saying that, but we're still in a subthread where out caveman friend is praising Stalin.

Also, I believe that the ideology is what apologists praise. Our cave-dwelling friend specifically picked on capitalism more than once, and even made some silly claims about how much worse it would have gone in a free market.

So, yes, it seems relevant that Stalin wasn't even following his own stated doctrines. And I don't just mean Marxism-Leninism. Stalin was overtly an advocate of multi-culturalism and so on in the USSR, yet he specifically targeted ethnic groups.

So I think it's kinda relevant to point out that Stalin was anything but what he's mis-represented as by his apologists. And that, yes, he was a big huge self-serving hypocrite.

Mind you, in Caveman's case, I'm not even sure he's even pro-communist or pro-Stalin as such. He just seems to be pro-ANYTHING that's not western democracy. Even anarchy was more like the land of milk and honey to him in another thread, than, you know, Somalia.
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Old 12th April 2018, 04:46 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You are the one appealing to authority, not me. I'm just having some fun pointing out that not only you can't back up your theory with evidence or defend it from questioning, but quoting later statements by the authority figure you apparently latched yourself onto (in response to me quoting one of his works) which contradict your theory of it being the CMA (out of all things!) which caused the famine:
You did not quote his work. You cited it as a source and backpedalled when I pointed out that Tauger does not support your contentions.
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Old 12th April 2018, 06:53 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
You did not quote his work. You cited it as a source and backpedalled when I pointed out that Tauger does not support your contentions.
Stop lying, there was no backpedaling. And if you claim that Tauger doesn't support the contention that the harvest failure was caused by natural disaster, then why am I so able to quote him saying exactly that in multiple sources? Doesn't that leave a bit of a problem for your approach of appealing to authority, when even the authority you quote for it can be seen to outright contradict you?
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Old 12th April 2018, 10:07 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The only one who got branded a Holocaust denier was Vixen herself, who denied the existence of roughly half of Hitler's victims, roughly speaking the non-Jewish half. Apparently, it is really important for her that Stalin be the bigger culprit.

This is the other thread. Read at your own peril.
And you were the only one doing the branding
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Old 12th April 2018, 01:32 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Stop lying, there was no backpedaling. And if you claim that Tauger doesn't support the contention that the harvest failure was caused by natural disaster, then why am I so able to quote him saying exactly that in multiple sources? Doesn't that leave a bit of a problem for your approach of appealing to authority, when even the authority you quote for it can be seen to outright contradict you?
Harvest failure and famine are two different things.
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Old 12th April 2018, 05:22 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Harvest failure and famine are two different things.
Obviously. Maybe you should revisit the exchange that apparently set you off on this:
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The theory that best explains the famine (or at least the harvest failure leading up to it) is environmental causes
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Could we at least see some sources that might back up this claim?
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933, Mark B. Tauger.
Hopefully this time around you'll understand that I gave that cite to support my assertion not as an appeal to authority but as a dataset of evidence such that, given that data, the theory which best explains the reduction in harvest yield is environmental causes.

And the theory which was being disputed was that it was the CMA specifically (ie the changes in farming methods and organization) which caused the famine, so unless you have some causal mechanism to connect the CMA to the famine which does not go through harvest yield reduction, then I don't see how this theory stands. It is furthermore contraindicated through various other observations:

1. The CMA was designed to decrease the impact of adverse environmental conditions on food security.

2. Stopping the endless cycle of food insecurity was the entire reason they embarked on the CMA in the first place.

3. They succeeded in doing this, as can be determined by comparing pre-CMA and post-CMA food security issues (harvest failures, famines).

4. It simply makes sense that rationalizing agriculture from medieval practice to modern best practice (as per the 1930's) would lessen the impact of adverse environmental conditions rather than increase it.

Anyway, my main point here is that unless people think Hitler is comparable to Obama because he left 6.5 million victims then I don't see why the people who died in the Soviet 1933 famine should be considered in such comparisons. Heck, Obama was probably even closer to Hitler than Stalin was in this case, since Obama's regime was doing it whilst having plenty of available resources - it is ideological rather than physical.
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Old 12th April 2018, 10:04 PM   #273
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OK, I take that word-mincing to be an admission that Stalinism was indeed the cause of the resulting famine. Thanks for playing.
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Old 13th April 2018, 07:01 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
OK, I take that word-mincing to be an admission that Stalinism was indeed the cause of the resulting famine. Thanks for playing.
You're the prototypical pigeon playing chess. Strut around like you've won all you want, anyone else can easily determine that you have utterly failed to back up your theory with even a shred of evidence as well as failed to defend it from questioning.
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Old 18th April 2018, 01:45 PM   #275
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And let us not forget for nearly two years, Stalin was the best and most useful ally that Hitler ever had. Italy and Japan never helped Der Fuehrer as much as Uncle Joe did with his huge shipments of raw materials to Germany, which the Nazi would have been hard pressed to find elsewhere.
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Old 18th April 2018, 03:06 PM   #276
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And let us not forget for nearly two years, Stalin was the best and most useful ally that Hitler ever had. Italy and Japan never helped Der Fuehrer as much as Uncle Joe did with his huge shipments of raw materials to Germany, which the Nazi would have been hard pressed to find elsewhere.

Sure, but that was more in the nature of a loan.

The Germans sent a lot of it back.

By airmail, sometimes.
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Old 29th April 2018, 09:52 AM   #277
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oh, a halt of ten days here

I came here to admit to caveman that we all e-europeans are nazis. I live in a house of 8 flats, we have the nazi flag, do marching every day and say sieg heil to each other instead of good morning.

Khrushchev with the others admitted it had been genocide (let's not delve into the fact he had been participating in all that himself and what were his motiffs). no, here we are in 2018 and arguing if Stalin was actually quite nice
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Old 29th April 2018, 09:54 AM   #278
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Stalin gives communism a bad name the way Hitler gives fascism a bad name.
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Old 1st May 2018, 05:02 AM   #279
Craig B
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
oh, a halt of ten days here

I came here to admit to caveman that we all e-europeans are nazis. I live in a house of 8 flats, we have the nazi flag, do marching every day and say sieg heil to each other instead of good morning.

Khrushchev with the others admitted it had been genocide (let's not delve into the fact he had been participating in all that himself and what were his motiffs). no, here we are in 2018 and arguing if Stalin was actually quite nice
No we're not. We're arguing whether he killed more than Hitler, and if his killings were genocidal in intent. Even if he killed fewer than Hitler, and even if it is true that most of his victims were selected by social class rather than ethnic group, as some have suggested; Stalin was still a monstrous tyrant and criminal.

You say "Khrushchev with the others admitted it had been genocide". It would be valuable to the thread to have Khrushchev's and the others' specific words on this topic, and a source for them. That would be illuminating in this discussion. Please provide.
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Old 1st May 2018, 08:32 AM   #280
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There is a bit about Stalin, and killings, in a book called Enemy at The Gates The Battle for Stalingrad by William Craig 1973:

Quote:
Stalin never forgot or forgave. He once told a Russian writer that Ivan the Terrible had not been ruthless enough because he left too many enemies alive. Stalin did not make the same error. Nearly twenty years after he broke with Leon Trotsky, one of his agents penetrated the exiled dissenter's security screen in Mexico and drove an alpenstock through his skull. From Stalin's office, emissaries emerged to slay thousands of Red Army officers in the 1937-1938 purges. It was on his orders that more than ten million kulaks, farmers and landowners who balked at turning over their properties to the new Communist state were killed. And it was from his apartment that the directive went out to sign the Nazi-Soviet nonaggression pact in August 1939, which Stalin believed gave him time to prepare for the inevitable war with Germany.

In this decision, Stalin had trusted an equally cynical dictator, even when spies like Richard Sorge and a man called Lucy told him the exact date Germany proposed to attack the Soviet Union. branding the information provided by these agents as part of a British plot to draw Russia into war, Stalin put his faith in Hitler's word.

It had been a colossal blunder. The Nazi invasion brought the Soviet Union to the brink of disaster and Stalin went into shock. Ten days passed before he rallied enough to resume command of his shattered armies and it was none too soon.
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