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Old 15th May 2018, 08:41 AM   #41
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The problem is, it's not that difficult for people to say "I have no problem with a black* guy dating my daughter", but then still freak out when/if it happens. Actions like segregating school districts, voter suppression attempts, and the like all rather strongly suggest that a lot of people aren't over it at all, so much as they are reluctant to say that they're racist. Even the most obvious examples - many ethnostate advocates, hate groups, and the like, will tell you that they "aren't racist, just pro-white".

As to the OP - a lot of things may have changed - age is a factor, as are news stories - and just random chance. I see less racism in Maryland than I did in Boston, even 15-20 years ago. Even something like a change in activities can effect this - I've noted before that clubs in the US are notorious for turning away black people if "too many black people" are already there - to the point where bouncers will often state it outright in private.

*: One time - feel free to substitute any other race for examples I give, within reason.
All true.

My issue is if a person that is heavy into "a cause" doesn't ever at least acknowledge things are getting better, at certain point the whole thing becomes pointless.

On any timeline we're operating at in this sort of discussion racism is always going to exist. It's not going to go away completely any time real soon. So if every acknowledgement that its getting better is going to be countered with "Yeah but it's still here" we rapidly reach the "Well what's the bloody point of even making it better" point. Perfect being the enemy of good and all that.

Hell even the fact that racism used to be officially codified into and not it isn't counts for something.
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Old 15th May 2018, 08:49 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All true.

My issue is if a person that is heavy into "a cause" doesn't ever at least acknowledge things are getting better, at certain point the whole thing becomes pointless.
And of course the idea that things are getting better never needs to be supported demonstrated, it is after all a matter of faith not evidence.

Sure 40 years ago we couldn't have had a black president but on a national level that really is kind of like having Black Friends. Many people who do have black friends are still really damn racist. So maybe the median level of overt racism has declined but has the mean level of racism on the whole declined? Which can be honestly called a decline in racism?
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:39 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All true.

My issue is if a person that is heavy into "a cause" doesn't ever at least acknowledge things are getting better, at certain point the whole thing becomes pointless.

If that's directed at me, then you weren't paying attention to what I wrote, since I acknowledged at the start that things have been getting better.

The problem is, that things have not been getting as much better as most of mainstream culture wants to believe or portray. What we see is that overt racism has declined substantially as it has been de-legitimized in mainstream culture, but more subtle, covert racism is declining at a much slower rate. This is well-documented in both institutional and cultural forms. Practices such as redlining are one expression of cultural racism. "White flight" is another. Law enforcement practices such as "stop and frisk" and racial profiling, along with the grossly disproportionate application of the law and sentencing when applied to minority vs. white suspects and offenders. The FBI Uniform Crime Statistics and state and federal court records show a clear and undeniable problem. All else being equal, black and other minorities are more likely to be targeted by law enforcement for harassment and more aggressive policing methods, they're more likely to be killed by law enforcement officers, are more frequently the targets of excessive force, are more likely to be tried for a crime, more likely to be convicted, and receive substantially harsher penalties than white people for the same crimes. And this is not a difference of a few percentage points, it's a difference of four to eight times, depending on circumstances.

Socially, there are a large number of other problems that are racially motivated. Studies have demonstrated that black people have a hard time finding work. One study sent out identical resumes, with different names, to various employers. Resumes with stereotypical black names, or addresses in predominantly black neighborhoods, were much less likely to receive call backs than resumes with names more common to white people, and addresses in predominantly white neighborhoods.

Black people have also been substantially excluded from many neighborhoods through the practice of redlining. Although illegal, there are many ways to accomplish this through plausibly deniable practices such as highly-restrictive Homeowners Associations and Neighborhood Covenants. In fact, the origin of these particular practices was in the 1920's and explicitly done to exclude black people from increasingly affluent neighborhoods prior to the Great Depression. They found new popularity in the post-WWII migration out of urban areas and into suburban neighborhoods. As the Civil Rights movement grew in strength, explicit ethnic prohibitions became illegal, but other restrictions took their place, creating restrictions based on family size, property use, limiting gatherings, imposing fees and dues, and requiring HA pre-approval for any home sales or rentals. (I encountered one of these fairly recently in my own search for housing. It didn't affect me directly, but was clearly aimed at keeping out "undesirables".)

And as others have noted, many people not affected by institutional and cultural racism will latch on to any opportunity to deny its existence, coming up with excuses that are rarely, if ever, applied to white people in similar circumstances. "They were asking for it" is the most common. "What did they do to bring this on themselves." Repeated assertions that the victims did something to justify the actions of the victimizer. They were "mouthing off" has been used as an excuse for everything from ejection from public businesses to outright murder by law enforcement officials.

Racism denialism itself is something that is a part of the problem. There's a tendency for people to not want to see anything "negative", particularly in American culture (but that's an entirely different issue). There is also a strong tendency to not want to admit to subtle biases in one's self and one's group. This often manifests as the prevalence of "alternate explanation" theories that many people create with when confronted with examples of pervasive but subtle racism, to play on that plausible deniability angle and pretend that things are better than they are. There's also a great deal of argument from ignorance fallacy applied here, "I don't see it personally, therefore it isn't happening." The tendency is to focus on the individual incident, rather than broader trends, because it's easier to deny specific incidents than it is to deny trends.

And if you pay attention to the statistics, you will see that the downward trend is not uniformly downward, but has points where it jumps up before going back down. What we are seeing right now is one of those periods where it jumps upwards again.
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Old 15th May 2018, 11:03 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
If that's directed at me, then you weren't paying attention to what I wrote, since I acknowledged at the start that things have been getting better.
I think it is aimed at me for daring to question the idea that things have improved and wanting metrics by which such an improvement can be measured. Because by some metrics things have gotten worse.

Which is very much the problem when someone talks about something as large and complex as racism declining what does that mean and what does it not mean.
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Old 15th May 2018, 02:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
No, they voted for someone who was openly and unapologetically negative about illegal immigrants and Muslims.

Calling that racist requires pretending that those are races and that their being races was the real basis for the thinking of someone who never mentioned race when talking about them. Those components both come exclusively from Trump's overzealous opponents, not from Trump himself. And they're both almost certainly dishonest. (I suppose it's possible that you're so fixated on race yourself that you seriously just can't see things in terms of anything else but race, but I'm trying to presumptively give credit for at least a minimal level of non-idiocy.)

This is a rehash of the same, tired, old nitpick of a word game used as a feeble gotcha by people intent on pretending that prejudice doesn't exist by calling out anyone who uses the word "racist".

Jews aren't a race. Irish aren't a race. Hispanics aren't a race. Arabs aren't a race. Etc., etc..

Fine.

Just substitute the word "bigot" whenever you find the term "racist" to be inappropriate.

I think you will discover that that the message is not the least bit diminished by that substitution.

And it will make you feel better. Or perhaps at least less inclined to insult.
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:25 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
You don't see how all of this could very, very easily be confirmation bias? If you're a black guy driving a BMW 5 series, and you are retrieving something from the trunk and a white person looks at you and you can tell by the way they're looking at you that they're thinking "hey that guy has a too nice car....for a black guy!" I'd maintain that this is almost impossible. What would such a look even lookin like? If you had to film a movie scene that tried to get that look across without looking completely ridiculous and over-acted, you'd have a tough time. Now, if you had other reasons in advance to suspect that ***** people might look at you driving a 5 series and think it too good a car for a black person to be driving, you may "see" these sorts of looks all the time.

I'm sure most of your minority friends have been recipients of actual racism. Almost all minorities have in one way or another. So have many white people, myself included. And minorities are the recipient of racism from other minorities, although those incidents are not as appealing to modern race politics.



This is the crux of the biscuit, but one for which you don't really offer compelling evidence, but only biased anecdote. And certainly you must agree that there are some instances of minorities intentionally playing the race card, don't you? Especially when there are so many rewards for doing so.



I haven't seen most of them as unlikely or implausible at all, let also laughable. And, you keep asserting that yours is the most "obvious" explanation. But from where do you get this claim that it is the most obvious explanation? Simply because the news article included the words "white" and "black" about 50 times before mentioning the participants in the incident?



320 million people, lots of credit cards being double-checked. Lots of people being accused of breaking into cars. Lots of misunderstandings. Cherry pick as you like, but more and more of these incidents don't help your case any more than an evangelist providing more and more poor proofs of the Christian God's existence would help his.

I'm not claiming that there is no racial bias (there is, and will probably always be), and that there isn't even outright racism. That exists as well. But more than either, I think there is desperate narrative that is falling apart here.
Any *individual* incident might be confirmation bias.

However, if you look at say Missouri vehicle search data (available at their state government website) you see that in Missouri, blacks are stopped disproportionately, searched disproportionately when stopped, and contraband is found less often, but they are arrested more often than whites.

That looks to be evidence of prejudice - in most cases it is probably unconscious bias. However it still looks like bias.

Now I am sure one can construct a plausible argument as to why this is not so simple - one can almost always do this with messy social data, however eventually, one has to get all the uncertainties lining up in the same direction to negate it.

When you also have anecdotal evidence (and anecdotes *are* data - just not very useful in medical problems) and video evidence, then it's perverse to claim that racism is not a problem.
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course segregation is reaching higher and higher levels which is also apparently a good thing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/15/o...ation-nyc.html

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/educati...egated-schools

And of course segregating your school is a perfectly valid reason to seperate a school district.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.591bca8f349a

"A federal judge’s ruling this week that allows a predominantly white Alabama city to separate from its more diverse school district is stoking new debate about the fate of desegregation initiatives after decades of efforts to promote racial balance in public education.

Judge Madeline Haikala of the U.S. District Court in Birmingham ruled that the city of Gardendale’s effort to break away was motivated by race and sent messages of racial inferiority and exclusion that “assail the dignity of black schoolchildren.”

She also found that Gardendale failed to meet its legal burden to prove that its separation would not hinder desegregation in Jefferson County,
which has been struggling to integrate its schools since black parents first sued for an equal education for their children in the 1960s."

This is the right kind of racism and segregation now the kind everyone is ok with. The kind that you can not call racism or people get deeply offended and declare you are playing the race card.
WUT?
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:52 PM   #48
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My thread about it being race and not class

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=328774
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:53 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All true.

My issue is if a person that is heavy into "a cause" doesn't ever at least acknowledge things are getting better, at certain point the whole thing becomes pointless.

On any timeline we're operating at in this sort of discussion racism is always going to exist. It's not going to go away completely any time real soon. So if every acknowledgement that its getting better is going to be countered with "Yeah but it's still here" we rapidly reach the "Well what's the bloody point of even making it better" point. Perfect being the enemy of good and all that.

Hell even the fact that racism used to be officially codified into and not it isn't counts for something.
Now I wish we could let East Asian actors give more than a 'tight hug' to the lead female character in American cinema. I think examining racial prejudice is a good lesson in understanding our hasty generalizations in general.

This may appear to enter the realm of first-world problems, but I believe it's in the spirit of the thread. When it comes to perpetuating racial stereotypes, the media is the biggest offender!
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:45 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Now I wish we could let East Asian actors give more than a 'tight hug' to the lead female character in American cinema. I think examining racial prejudice is a good lesson in understanding our hasty generalizations in general.

This may appear to enter the realm of first-world problems, but I believe it's in the spirit of the thread. When it comes to perpetuating racial stereotypes, the media is the biggest offender!
I believe this barrier is finally beginning to crack, particularly on USA television. This is true of TV shows and particularly true of TV commercials. Perhaps the networks air different commercials in different markets, but in California a very large percentage of the commercials portray loving, often intimate "mixed race" couples, sometimes including babies to ensure the viewer understands the nature of relationship. Commercials with same sex couples are now also common.

I realize the goal of the advertiser is to appeal to, and attract purchases from, these additional demographics but nonetheless I find it wonderful and it inspires my hope that things are getting better. Further, this is one of the best ways of counteracting bigotry: the more times people see these commercials the less remarkable mixed couples of all kinds seem, until it becomes a non-issue.

[edit] In thinking about it, I have seldom seen commercials with mixed coupes that include Southern Asians. I suspect the demographics are not yet quite large enough to have justified it for the advertisers (outside of a few concentrations such as the SF Bay area), but I expect to see it too in the near future.

Last edited by Giordano; 16th May 2018 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 16th May 2018, 09:24 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I believe this barrier is finally beginning to crack, particularly on USA television. This is true of TV shows and particularly true of TV commercials. Perhaps the networks air different commercials in different markets, but in California a very large percentage of the commercials portray loving, often intimate "mixed race" couples, sometimes including babies to ensure the viewer understands the nature of relationship. Commercials with same sex couples are now also common.

I realize the goal of the advertiser is to appeal to, and attract purchases from, these additional demographics but nonetheless I find it wonderful and it inspires my hope that things are getting better. Further, this is one of the best ways of counteracting bigotry: the more times people see these commercials the less remarkable mixed couples of all kinds seem, until it becomes a non-issue.

[edit] In thinking about it, I have seldom seen commercials with mixed coupes that include Southern Asians. I suspect the demographics are not yet quite large enough to have justified it for the advertisers (outside of a few concentrations such as the SF Bay area), but I expect to see it too in the near future.
I'm hopeful when I see my kids' generation and younger. I was thinking about it over the weekend when helping with a scout camp (in hammocks and under tarps) where they utterly ignore race.

Not being idiots, they are aware of racism, but don't seem to even have to watch themselves to avoid it.
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Old 17th May 2018, 11:13 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All true.

My issue is if a person that is heavy into "a cause" doesn't ever at least acknowledge things are getting better, at certain point the whole thing becomes pointless.

On any timeline we're operating at in this sort of discussion racism is always going to exist. It's not going to go away completely any time real soon. So if every acknowledgement that its getting better is going to be countered with "Yeah but it's still here" we rapidly reach the "Well what's the bloody point of even making it better" point. Perfect being the enemy of good and all that.

Hell even the fact that racism used to be officially codified into and not it isn't counts for something.
This.
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Old 17th May 2018, 12:27 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
This.

Somehow these conversations remind me of the whole sad story of cigarette smoking.

We reached a point where the scientific consensus was all but unanimous. Cigarette smoking was bad for your health. It was responsible for all sorts of diseases, not least of which was lung cancer.

Even the social and cultural viewpoint had finally fallen in line with the science.

And yet, for years after that threshold had been reached and passed, cigarette companies would fight and win in court because the plaintiffs could not prove that cigarettes had caused their particular case of lung cancer.

Here we have people arguing that yes, prejudice still exists, and yes, there are plenty of people out there who engage in their prejudices, knowingly or unwittingly, but it can't be proven that this or that particular case was a result of prejudice.

And like the cigarette companies, they argue it just about every single time.
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Old 17th May 2018, 12:47 PM   #54
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Some racial bias might arise from seemingly benign circumstances.

Black people get airtime more than ever in America; just look at the NBA and NFL. But I think that kind of gives the wrong impression about how 'formidable' they are, and we can go back to the Michael Brown case for instance where we see the superhumanization (really dehumanization) of black men and why law enforcement may be more anxious in their presence.

"I've heard about these guys." "Seen em on TV; super fast and strong, belligerent, putting their faces up against the refs, etc". And now the cop is on the defensive. Big, black, athletic, speaks a certain way....dangerous.
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Old 17th May 2018, 01:03 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Somehow these conversations remind me of the whole sad story of cigarette smoking.
Incidentally, the other benefit to "conceding the point", is that even if the plaintiff can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the test case is a genuine example, the Plan B Defense is: since everybody knows this product causes cancer, the plaintiff's choice was one of informed consent, so what's the grounds for damages? ie: fine, Mobile Alabama is no place for a black woman to be driving alone and stopping for gas, so why does she expect the local constabulary to protect her from rapists?

And the resemblance is not a coincidence. Big Tobacco demonstrated that it works, so other doubtcasting campaigns have embraced the strategy. SDI, Climate Change, &c. And not surprisingly, there's actually just a handful of PR firms and their clutch of scientists-for-hire involved. It's astonishing how much damage a well organized and financed unit can inflict on billions of people.

I read an interesting book about this recently: [Agnogology], by various contributors, it's an anthology. The most on topic ones were How Climate Science Became a Victim of the Cold War, by Naomi Oreskes, and Manufactured Uncertainty by David Michaels (director health and safety at DOE under three administrations)
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Old 17th May 2018, 02:44 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Somehow these conversations remind me of the whole sad story of cigarette smoking.
Uhhh...I’m sorry?

Im not really sure how your point is supposed to argue that prejudice against black people is getting worse.
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Old 17th May 2018, 03:01 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Uhhh...I’m sorry?

Im not really sure how your point is supposed to argue that prejudice against black people is getting worse.

Uhhh ... I'm sorry?

I'm not really sure how you concluded that I was arguing such a point.
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Old 17th May 2018, 04:18 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm not really sure how you concluded that I was arguing such a point.
Because I was agreeing with someone who was saying that racism against black people wasn’t getting worse. Read what you’re responding to next time lady.
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Old 17th May 2018, 04:22 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Because I was agreeing with someone who was saying that racism against black people wasn’t getting worse. Read what you’re responding to next time lady.

I did.

You are making unwarranted assumptions.

Nothing I wrote in any way disagrees with the post you mention.
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Old 17th May 2018, 05:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I did.

You are making unwarranted assumptions.

Nothing I wrote in any way disagrees with the post you mention.
Whatever.
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Old 18th May 2018, 08:05 AM   #61
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A test proposal for those who claim to be able to "identify" racism in individual events where nobody mentioned race... presuming you're not claiming to read the minds of people involved in a story you merely read about...

There must be something you can find out from reading each individual racist event that tells you that the cause of somebody's behavior was racism, not something else, because if people could do or say the same thing without racism, then racism wouldn't be required to explain it. So, if such a story were told to you without the participants' races being mentioned, you would still be able to identify which incidents were about race, by the fact that something explanatory was obviously missing; with the only viable explanation left out, the story just wouldn't add up and would be practically impossible, with no other explanations left that could work because people just wouldn't do/say that except for racism.

This is an analytical ability that, if you actually have it, you can demonstrate. So I will tell you some incidents that have actually happened in my life (either my direct experience or at least something I directly observed happening to someone else I knew, not hearsay), without specifying the participants' races: some involving people of different races, and some involving only people of the same race. Then you can tell me which ones are which, and then I'll reveal their races so we see how many you got right or wrong.

I'll keep it simple by sticking to only cases where the people were white or black. And they'll all be something with some drama to it that stands out and invites comment & explanation, not just mundanities like a group of people going out to a restaurant/bar together and then going home. If you think any story in the form it's originally told in lacks some other important bit of information other than race, ask before you give your answers and I'll add those missing details so your answers can take them into account.
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Old 18th May 2018, 11:24 AM   #62
Mumbles
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
A test proposal for those who claim to be able to "identify" racism in individual events where nobody mentioned race... presuming you're not claiming to read the minds of people involved in a story you merely read about...
Actually...

There are many cases that actually are fairly ambiguous and have other perfectly reasonable explanations - such as the AirBnB case. There are also cases where people say "you can't tell" where it's actually completely obvious, such as the murders of Trayvon Martin or Jordan Davis. And then there are times where we look at a person't history, and it falls into a pattern - such as that Starbucks manager, or the woman at Yale who called the cops on a woman sleeping while in the middle of studying, or the actions of the Ferguson and Baltimore police departments.
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