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Old 13th May 2018, 01:53 AM   #81
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Why were you "all in" for him if he was a terrible candidate?
And why is he now worthy of so much contempt from GOP Trump supporters?
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Old 13th May 2018, 04:00 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Democrats do not hate war. We just hate unnecessary war. Republicans like war either way, it does not matter if it is necessary.

The Democrat viewpoint in that situation is honorable and good. The Republican viewpoint is dishonorable and evil.

Democrats can love John McCain as a war hero and for his sacrifice, yet disagree with his politics.

Republicans cannot. As soon as they disagree with his politics they go full on evil with opposite propaganda regarding the reality of his time serving and his time captive.
Lol

That isnít the liberals history, present or future.
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Old 13th May 2018, 04:04 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol

That isnít the liberals history, present or future.
So...evidence of "the left" spitting on soldiers and POWs?
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Old 13th May 2018, 05:40 AM   #84
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Seriously, is this thread about John McCain and the despicable things the current US administration is saying about him, or logger's various theories about "the left"?
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Old 13th May 2018, 06:08 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It's not liberals claiming McCain caused the Forrestal fire, either.
Is that an attempt at swiftboating? Speaking of John Kerry - there you have a liberal who dutifully served his country and then spoke out against the war.

As a politician, John McCain hasn't show half the courage he showed while being in Vietnam, specifically while being a POW. He often spoke against the GOP party line, but, when push came to shove, he nearly always caved in and voted in line with the party.

I'm not one to venerate the military like many Americans seem to do, but really, these kind of lies are way below the belt.
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Old 13th May 2018, 06:37 AM   #86
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Senator Mcain served our nation in Vietnam with courage and honor. When Trump was called upon, he fled running to his mom like a stinking, sniveling coward.
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Old 13th May 2018, 06:47 AM   #87
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Senator Mcain served our nation in Vietnam with courage and honor. When Trump was called upon, he fled running to his mom like a stinking, sniveling coward.
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Old 13th May 2018, 07:04 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
The guys against torture, something we didn't even stoop to in WW2, oh but Islamic radical terrorism is soooo much scarier than Nazis. The right has their ultimate boogyman don't they? What else makes McCain a RINO? Campaign finance reform is all I can come up with.
You forget his Obamacare repeal vote.
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Old 13th May 2018, 07:18 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Democrats do not hate war. We just hate unnecessary war. Republicans like war either way, it does not matter if it is necessary.
You know, it's very easy to take the moral high ground with logger. You just don't sink to his us-vs.-them rhetoric.

Sadly, you didn't just sink, you swam to the bottom with this post.
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Old 13th May 2018, 07:19 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Senator Mcain served our nation in Vietnam with courage and honor.

What a hero!

Quote:
McCain and other prisoners cheered the U.S. "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972, viewing it as a forceful measure to push North Vietnam to terms.
John McCain, prisoner of war (Wikipedia)
Quote:
Both the Soviet Union and China denounced the bombing, while some Western countries also criticized the US operation. In a famous speech, Olof Palme, the Prime Minister of Sweden, compared the bombings to a number of historical "crimes" including the bombing of Guernica, the massacres of Oradour-sur-glane, Babi Yar, Katyn, Lidice and Sharpeville, and the extermination of Jews and other groups at Treblinka, and said that "now another name can be added to this list: Hanoi, Christmas 1972". His protests resulted in the U.S. withdrawing their ambassador from Sweden and telling Sweden not to send a new ambassador to Washington.
Operation Linebacker, Outcome and assessments (Wikipedia)
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Old 13th May 2018, 07:22 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Seriously, is this thread about John McCain and the despicable things the current US administration is saying about him, or logger's various theories about "the left"?
It's difficult to not feed the trolls when the current administration is trolls.
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Old 13th May 2018, 07:54 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Senator Mcain served our nation in Vietnam with courage and honor. When Trump was called upon, he fled running to his mom like a stinking, sniveling coward.
Honestly, I don't particularly mind people who refused to serve in Vietnam - as long as they don't abuse underaged folks and then swagger around with toy guns like some washed up musician.

Or give whatever excuse it is that Bolton or Dolt 45 gave, for that matter. Own up to why you did it, if you had a legit reason.

Doesn't mean I can't respect people like McCain, too.
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Old 13th May 2018, 08:13 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I wonder if we do. The 'they spat on soldiers' story is widely told, but oddly enough there seems to be a lack of photographs or film footage of it happening. Contemporary news didn't think it worth reporting? That seems more of a stretch to belief than the other conclusion: that the story is urban myth, promulgated by some for the shock value, by others to make some kind of political points.

Feel free to prove me wrong by posting evidence it actually happened.
As far as I am aware (and I was drafted and spent roughly a year in RVN at the 9th MedLab just up the street from the LBJ (Long Binh Jail) and behind the VC prison hospital and the hospital for the troops) no one ever attempted spitting on me and none of us I ever met said anything about such happening to them.
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Old 13th May 2018, 09:47 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I learned a new word for this recently, duckspeak. It's out of Orwell's 1984.

Thoughtless or formulaic speech.
Thanks, been too long since I read 1984. Whole lot of Trumpist duckspeak going on.
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Old 13th May 2018, 09:48 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's difficult to not feed the trolls when the current administration is trolls.
That is precisely true.
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Old 13th May 2018, 10:01 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What a hero!
I also noted he voted to invade Iraq when you'd think he would have known better.

His politics and POV do not erase five years as a POW, seriously injured, enduring torture and refusing to be released until other POWs were released first.

Heroes can be imperfect.
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Old 13th May 2018, 10:50 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
At least with McCain the left isnít still spitting on our soldiers and POWs. The hypocrisy of the left knows no bounds.
He who smelt it dealt it. But mediocre try at best. Also the spitting thing is pretty well exposed (earlier today on another IIRC thread) as not what we intelligent persons like to call true!!!!!
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Old 13th May 2018, 11:36 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I also noted he voted to invade Iraq when you'd think he would have known better.

His politics and POV do not erase five years as a POW, seriously injured, enduring torture and refusing to be released until other POWs were released first.

Heroes can be imperfect.

This is what I just don't understand about U.S. Americans! This is a guy who not only cheered when American bombers killed thousands of Vietnamese. He himself had been doing the same thing:
Quote:
He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.
(the same Wikipedia article)

But because he cared about the release of some other American POWs, he's a hero?! Not in my book.
It's as if Americans just don't care at all about the number of foreigners they kill: Vietnam War casualties: Deaths caused by the American military.
You build a memorial wall for the 58,000 American soldiers who died in the Vietnam War, but seem to forget about the millions of South East Asian lives.

I can see why Americans like Muhammad Ali can be considered heroes:

Quote:
ďMy conscience wonít let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America,Ē he said at the time. ďAnd shoot them for what? They never called me ******, they never lynched me, they didnít put no dogs on me, they didnít rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father. Ö Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail.Ē
Muhammad Ali and Vietnam (The Atlantic, Jun. 4, 2016)

But John McCain?! No, never!
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Old 13th May 2018, 11:45 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's difficult to not feed the trolls when the current administration is trolls.
Deleted
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Old 13th May 2018, 11:47 AM   #100
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Are you in the current administration?!

ETA: What logger deleted was his claim that TragicMonkey's post accused him of being a troll.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 13th May 2018 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 13th May 2018, 11:57 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
This is what I just don't understand about U.S. Americans! This is a guy who not only cheered when American bombers killed thousands of Vietnamese. He himself had been doing the same thing:

But because he cared about the release of some other American POWs, he's a hero?! Not in my book.
It's as if Americans just don't care at all about the number of foreigners they kill: Vietnam War casualties: Deaths caused by the American military.
You build a memorial wall for the 58,000 American soldiers who died in the Vietnam War, but seem to forget about the millions of South East Asian lives.

I can see why Americans like Muhammad Ali can be considered heroes:

But John McCain?! No, never!
The level of hatred over the Vietnam war falls on a continuum. Same with the level of disgust with the many many immoral actions this country has taken in countries all over the world. A thread discussing that topic would surely be longer than the Amanda Knox thread.

I blame the members in our federal government but not the soldiers. I do know people that think everyone should have refused to serve. It's not realistic.
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Old 13th May 2018, 05:15 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Are you in the current administration?!

ETA: What logger deleted was his claim that TragicMonkey's post accused him of being a troll.
Read his post again, I deleted it because that wasnít the proper way to handle it.
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Old 13th May 2018, 08:09 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Iím sure in your reality itís an absolutist claim and that history isnít on my side. Iím fine with giving the victory to you in your reality.
You really don't get this? Here is a tip. Reality is that thing that does not go away when you close your eyes.

Your absolutist claim was that the left hates the military. This is a stupid argument at face value because no group of millions of people think or act the same way outside of badly written novels by morons with bigoted agendas and really bad scifi movies involving aliens taking over peoples minds. You painted with a broad brush, which is faulty thinking and of no value.

Then you tried to back it up with anecdotes about a few individuals. That is like telling somebody you have a nuclear weapon and then showing them a BB gun and insisting it is a nuke. Anecdotes do not extrapolate in to proof of how millions of people think. Unless you are the kind of person that writes the crap I described in the last paragraph. To use anecdotes to prove your argument you would actually need millions of them. But if you are up to that I will wait for you to provide them.

So to recap, you blew it. You don't have a valid argument. You don't know what is evidence and what is not. And you don't get what my counter argument was.

So what was the counter argument? It was simply that you were wrong. All that is needed to counter that was one example given that you did not have a valid argument to start with. Had you picked a more sensible argument we would not be dealing with you trying to separate yourself from reality right now.

But go ahead with your predictable one line reply. I'll take that as your admission of defeat.
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Old 13th May 2018, 08:41 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
You really don't get this? Here is a tip. Reality is that thing that does not go away when you close your eyes.

Your absolutist claim was that the left hates the military. This is a stupid argument at face value because no group of millions of people think or act the same way outside of badly written novels by morons with bigoted agendas and really bad scifi movies involving aliens taking over peoples minds. You painted with a broad brush, which is faulty thinking and of no value.

Then you tried to back it up with anecdotes about a few individuals. That is like telling somebody you have a nuclear weapon and then showing them a BB gun and insisting it is a nuke. Anecdotes do not extrapolate in to proof of how millions of people think. Unless you are the kind of person that writes the crap I described in the last paragraph. To use anecdotes to prove your argument you would actually need millions of them. But if you are up to that I will wait for you to provide them.

So to recap, you blew it. You don't have a valid argument. You don't know what is evidence and what is not. And you don't get what my counter argument was.

So what was the counter argument? It was simply that you were wrong. All that is needed to counter that was one example given that you did not have a valid argument to start with. Had you picked a more sensible argument we would not be dealing with you trying to separate yourself from reality right now.

But go ahead with your predictable one line reply. I'll take that as your admission of defeat.
I never made an absolutist claim, I don’t make absolutist claims on anything, that simply isn’t reality. When I say liberals or the left in general a reasonable person can understand I’m not talking about every last one. It’s a game to think people argue that way. Next time I’ll add in the word “many” so you’ll be able to understand.

Last edited by logger; 13th May 2018 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 13th May 2018, 08:43 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Seriously, is this thread about John McCain and the despicable things the current US administration is saying about him, or logger's various theories about "the left"?

You say that like there's a difference.
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Old 13th May 2018, 10:33 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You say that like there's a difference.
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Old 14th May 2018, 12:26 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You say that like there's a difference.
The difference is that we don't need to abide by logger's various "theories". We do need to abide by what happens in the US government.
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Old 14th May 2018, 01:49 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I donít make absolutist claims on anything
...
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Old 14th May 2018, 03:25 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I never made an absolutist claim, I donít make absolutist claims on anything, that simply isnít reality.
You just did it again. That is reality.


Quote:
When I say liberals or the left in general a reasonable person can understand Iím not talking about every last one. Itís a game to think people argue that way. Next time Iíll add in the word ďmanyĒ so youíll be able to understand.
You already failed in this last post. Saying "many" won't change anything is you still rely on anecdotes to make your case.
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Old 14th May 2018, 03:30 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You know, it's very easy to take the moral high ground with logger. You just don't sink to his us-vs.-them rhetoric.
Sadly, you didn't just sink, you swam to the bottom with this post.
Don't fret. We have posters here who are keeping a vigilant eye on any divisive "us-vs-them" thinking.
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Old 14th May 2018, 07:42 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You know, it's very easy to take the moral high ground with logger. You just don't sink to his us-vs.-them rhetoric.

Sadly, you didn't just sink, you swam to the bottom with this post.
Thatís what you consider moral high ground? Us vs them. Youíre in the politics section you know?
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Old 14th May 2018, 07:43 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
Don't fret. We have posters here who are keeping a vigilant eye on any divisive "us-vs-them" thinking.
At least I and others are clear on what they believe.
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Old 14th May 2018, 07:44 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post

You already failed in this last post. Saying "many" won't change anything is you still rely on anecdotes to make your case.
Iím not trying to prove gravity here. You see these quotes from leftists, none from those on the right.
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Old 14th May 2018, 08:20 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
You see these quotes from leftists, none from those on the right.
...

Originally Posted by logger View Post
I donít make absolutist claims on anything
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Old 14th May 2018, 08:27 AM   #115
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This whole thing with McCain and Trump has actually made me worry more about my country than anything else that has happened. Sure, Trump and his following have been gleefully breaking norms and the spirit of the law left and right to assert power, but this is a new low.

Conservatives used to care a lot about proclaiming the virtue of veterans and military service. Now they are willing to attack a dying POW. And not just attack his political positions, but attack his conduct as POW and his character. Anyone and anything in the way is the enemy.

I am very worried. If Trump faces removal, either by law enforcement or by election results, I feel wide scale violence and upheaval could occur. I hope I'm overreacting.
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Old 14th May 2018, 08:41 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
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Oh yes, I forgot to add. None that I’ve seen. I love the way you guys debate. It’s like being in a courtroom.

Last edited by logger; 14th May 2018 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 14th May 2018, 08:50 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Oh yes, I forgot to add. None that Iíve seen. I love the way you guys debate. Itís like being in a courtroom. That proves you are losing.
You mean needing evidence like a court room?

Of course when an argument cannot be supported by evidence, that is proof that it is winning.
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Old 14th May 2018, 08:54 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
You mean needing evidence like a court room?

Of course when an argument cannot be supported by evidence, that is proof that it is winning.
Well tbh, a lot of people have had their fill of "facts". We've had apparently contradictory facts, we've had facts that seem to run counter to people's actual experience and we have facts that run counter to people's deeply held convictions.

Rather than basing everything on unreliable facts, it's much better to go with one's inerrant gut when it comes to making decisions or supporting arguments.
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Old 14th May 2018, 09:08 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
You mean needing evidence like a court room?

Of course when an argument cannot be supported by evidence, that is proof that it is winning.
If I canít prove that 100% of leftists hate the military then we need to ignore what the left has said and done, even done to John McCain?
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Old 14th May 2018, 09:08 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Oh yes, I forgot to add. None that Iíve seen. I love the way you guys debate. Itís like being in a courtroom.
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