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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 8th May 2018, 01:59 PM   #1
Stacyhs
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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 28

<snip>



Mod WarningThis thread has been opened to continue the conversation about the Amanda Knox case. Under absolutely no circumstances should there ever be any conversation about the reason another member might post, his/her mental health or any similar issue. Otherwise, posts from previous versions of this thread may be freely referenced here.
Posted By:Loss Leader

Last edited by Loss Leader; 14th May 2018 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 14th May 2018, 10:59 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
She won't even be that when the ECHR rules in her favor and Italy corrects that mistake.

It's a pity that Guede hasn't apologized to the Kerchers for his heinous and wicked crime against their dearly beloved daughter, sister, niece, cousin, granddaughter, future aunt. Knox and Sollecito have nothing to apologize for since they had nothing to do with Kercher's death.

Your facts are all scrambled up.
Yeah, Guede didn't apologize for his hand in their daughter's murder. But he did make a phony fake apology for being sorry he was innocent while people other than himself did all the criminal actions. This kind of transparently self serving excuse is even more insulting than just remaining silent. But apparently the higher Italian courts don't think so because they gave him an official commendation and seal of approval for coming up with this fake story apology about the rape and murder victim consensually fooling around with him behind her boyfriends back to explain why all the evidence used to convict him proves he's actually innocent.

No PGP has ever cared or noticed. Meredith's champions I'm sure.
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Old 14th May 2018, 12:23 PM   #3
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
She won't even be that when the ECHR rules in her favor and Italy corrects that mistake.

It's a pity that Guede hasn't apologized to the Kerchers for his heinous and wicked crime against their dearly beloved daughter, sister, niece, cousin, granddaughter, future aunt. Knox and Sollecito have nothing to apologize for since they had nothing to do with Kercher's death.

Your facts are all scrambled up.
The guilter-PR shaming campaign against Knox is something that has continued even these past three years since both she and Sollecito were exonerated.

It's telling that this campaign gives the actual murderer a free pass. All for Meredith.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 14th May 2018, 12:31 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

The Ground Report referenced above reinforces how despicable Peggy Ganong was during the 8 year marathon trial of Knox/Sollecito. Ganong went so far as to infiltrate/disrupt a fund raiser held to assist the Knox family in its efforts to support Amanda.

Ganong should be making apologies (and lots of them) instead of being on the receiving end.
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Old 15th May 2018, 03:29 PM   #5
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This was posted a few days ago on TJMK. The over-the-top self-praise reminds me of Trump! They are so desperate for attention that they're recycling past junk.

Quote:
Friday, May 11, 2018

Overview Of All Our Powerpoints For Those Many On Media Threads Praising Them

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters

1. Post Overview

These brilliant Powerpoints have been getting effusive praise online and in emails by many who began with them.

Others have posted asking how to find them. We are very grateful for their interest. Here they all are, the complete set. One is by James Raper, one by Fly By Night, two by Nikki, and the others by that indefatigable frog Kermit.

They are often very funny, mostly bothersome to the humorless Knox attack-sheep, and always technically excellent. But their main draw appears to be that they are so explanatory, so highly compelling.

Watch a few and the sense that the Italians got things right can get to be unshakable. While videos can be telling, Powerpoints look to be even more telling. Other victim sites might well benefit from this model.
Too bad the Supreme Court didn't see these 'brilliant' powerpoints before excoriating the police and prosecution and then acquitting Knox and Sollecito.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:00 PM   #6
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12293011

And what exactly are you insinuating?

I trust it isn't anything personalised. Maybe it's something you would know about yourself.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:08 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The guilter-PR shaming campaign against Knox is something that has continued even these past three years since both she and Sollecito were exonerated.

It's telling that this campaign gives the actual murderer a free pass. All for Meredith.
They haven't been exonerated. Read the MR. 'Strong suspicions' remain.

The only way Knox can explain her suspicious behaviour is to blame Mignini, who by the way issues hundreds of prosecutions weekly, as his job.

As for Raff, he's baffled as to why he can't just walk into a Questura with a knife in his pocket.

Talk about a sense of entitlement. One of Hare's diagnostics for psychopathy.

Mignini describes Raff as 'icy cold'.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:19 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This was posted a few days ago on TJMK. The over-the-top self-praise reminds me of Trump! They are so desperate for attention that they're recycling past junk.



Too bad the Supreme Court didn't see these 'brilliant' powerpoints before excoriating the police and prosecution and then acquitting Knox and Sollecito.


It's worse than Trump - it's positively Soviet-era Pravda-esque!!

The really funny/tragic thing is that Quennell simply cannot/does not see the deeply-embedded ironic contradiction in his position. On the one hand, he is continually desperate to convince others (and himself...?) that "the sense that the Italians got things right can get to be unshakable". But he can only apply this "logic" to the two convicting lower courts (Massei and Nencini) and one of the SC-level courts (Chieffi). However, he is forced to avoid claiming "the Italians got things right" to the Hellmann court, and, critically, the Marasca SC panel.

So in other words, in Quennell's bizarro-world, the convicting courts show Italian criminal justice to be wonderful and infallible etc etc..... but the acquitting courts - including the SC panel which ultimately and definitively acquitted Knox and Sollecito on all murder-related charges - DO NOT show Italian criminal justice to be wonderful and infallible etc etc. And logically, this must by definition destroy Quennell's fanciful claims about the excellence of Italian criminal justice!! If he was making this claim in the aftermath of the Massei convictions and before the Hellmann appeal trial (as indeed he was), then at least logically he'd have a defensible position. But ever since the Hellmann acquittals, he simply cannot have it both ways.

The truth of the matter is this: lower level Italian courts - especially courts of first instance - appear to be of very poor quality and serve only a very limited role in the application of justice. In fact, they appear in so many ways to be similar in scope and remit to arraignment-level courts (or Grand Juries) in places such as the UK or US. The heavier lifting in Italy appears to get done in the appeal-level courts.

I'd add to this my opinion that the multi-level system in Italy for all significant "felony-level" criminal trials is a ridiculous waste of money, a poor way to apply justice, and hugely unnecessarily long and complex. All that is needed is a properly-constituted court to try the case once and once only. And if that court turns out to have acted improperly or unlawfully, or if evidence placed before that court turns out to have been presented improperly or unlawfully, or if new evidence comes to light, then there should be a fair opportunity for appeal. Italy's multi-level approach - where prosecutors get as many repeat bites at the cherry as the defence - appears, yet again, to be a hangover from the Mussolini era (for reasons which may be obvious....).

So: Italy's criminal justice system is hugely unfit for purpose. The fiasco of the Knox/Sollecito trial process only serves to illustrate this (while driving a coach and horses through Quennell's ridiculous claims about how great Italy's system is). Every disinterested observer can see this full well. There's an enormous amount of literature (both academic and journalistic) on the subject. Whether the Knox/Sollecito trial process will further serve to illuminate the massive problems inherent in the Italian system is, unfortunately for justice in Italy, questionable. We've seen how it effectively took a demand from the EU and the European Council to force Italy to abandon its dreadful inquisitorial system - and yet we've also seen how Italy managed to fudge even that with a clumsy, half-hearted legislative change which allowed way too much reactionary wiggle-room.

Italy is a broken state, unfortunately. It is riddled with corruption, political patronage, shocking public services, organised crime, and a more-or-less institutionalised grey/black economy. I tried brokering a significant business collaboration between a (very large) UK and Italian company in the early 2000s. But we had to abandon the whole thing when we dug deep enough to realise just how much embedded corruption, tax evasion, crazy courts system and two-faced dealings were going on. And I know for certain that this was very, very far from unique. The Knox/Sollecito trial fiasco is just another example of how broken Italy is. The only good thing that can be said about it is that in the Marasca SC panel Knox and Sollecito finally found a judicial entity that could see the case for what it actually was.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:32 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They haven't been exonerated. Read the MR. 'Strong suspicions' remain.

Uhhh yeah, they've been exonerated. When a country's Supreme Court definitively acquits you on all charges related to a murder, states that there was never a single piece of credible, reliable evidence against you, lambasts the police and prosecutors for their shockingly bad and improper performance in pursuing and prosecuting you, excoriates the lower convicting courts for the unlawful ways in which they convicted you, and states that it's a certainty that with the "evidence" set as it stands, no properly-constituted court could ever convict you in the future....

..... they yeah, you've been exonerated.

(And, by the way, and for the umpteenth time, please try to understand the concept of the Marasca SC verdict consciously ensuring that it didn't come into conflict with the two prior settled SC verdicts which related to this case: the Guede verdict and the Knox criminal slander verdict. If you manage to understand this, then you should probably be able to understand why certain parts of the Marasca MR read as they do....)




Quote:
The only way Knox can explain her suspicious behaviour is to blame Mignini, who by the way issues hundreds of prosecutions weekly, as his job.

1) Mignini doesn't "issue hundreds of prosecutions weekly". What a stupid thing to say.

2) Knox has no "suspicious behaviour" to explain away.




Quote:
As for Raff, he's baffled as to why he can't just walk into a Questura with a knife in his pocket.

Yeah. Cos walking into a police HQ (that's what we call them in English) with a knife in your pocket might be described as somewhat foolish in the circumstances. But if you think that has/had anything whatsoever to offer in terms of evidence of Sollecito's participation in the Kercher murder, well then you're clutching at straws even more than I had thought......




Quote:
Talk about a sense of entitlement. One of Hare's diagnostics for psychopathy.

Wow. No words required.



Quote:
Mignini describes Raff as 'icy cold'.

Yeah: Mignini's a danger to justice - a nutter who things he has Sherlock-Holmes-esque levels of sleuthing deduction (ridiculous enough in itself, before even considering that Holmes was purely a fictional construct with fictional powers that were completely absent in the real world...), and who clearly developed a confirmation-biassed, tunnel-vision belief in the guilt of Knox and Sollecito (and then went searching for evidence to "confirm" his belief, while at the same time disregarding (or failing to search for) evidence which conflicted with his belief).
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:38 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They haven't been exonerated. Read the MR. 'Strong suspicions' remain.

The only way Knox can explain her suspicious behaviour is to blame Mignini, who by the way issues hundreds of prosecutions weekly, as his job.

As for Raff, he's baffled as to why he can't just walk into a Questura with a knife in his pocket.

Talk about a sense of entitlement. One of Hare's diagnostics for psychopathy.

Mignini describes Raff as 'icy cold'.
So am I. I have a similar flick knife on me almost all the time. I grew up with a knife on me. You might view it as a weapon, but to me, it's a great tool to have on hand. I know people that carry guns and none of them have ever committed a crime.

Your problem is that you view Raffaele and Amanda through this lens that they are guilty and that in your mind inevitably colors innocuous and innocent facts as something nefarious. You use it to support your bias. When just as reasonable explanation is that no guilty person would dare carry a knife into the police station. This is why an obective person would discard this point as irrelevant, neither incriminating or exculpatory.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:56 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So am I. I have a similar flick knife on me almost all the time. I grew up with a knife on me. You might view it as a weapon, but to me, it's a great tool to have on hand. I know people that carry guns and none of them have ever committed a crime.

Your problem is that you view Raffaele and Amanda through this lens that they are guilty and that in your mind inevitably colors innocuous and innocent facts as something nefarious. You use it to support your bias. When just as reasonable explanation is that no guilty person would dare carry a knife into the police station. This is why an obective person would discard this point as irrelevant, neither incriminating or exculpatory.
You've been watching too much West Side Story.

It used to be the case that in Finland every man was entitled to carry a puukko on his person. Indeed, as a kid I had several of these as souvenirs, although extremely sharp, encased in leather sheaths. People admire them for the sheer quality of craftsmanship. My male relatives put them to practical use in their everyday lives. My grandfather, as a hunting shooting farmer, had an entire makasiini of guns. The level of gun ownership being not dissimilar to the US.

However, fact is, people did use these knives as weapons when drunk or enraged with jealousy.

Now the law has changed and it's considered dodgy to even take a puukko out of the country as an innocuous tourist novelty. I did actually pick up the most beautiful handcrafted one at a Mikkeli fair, but good job I gave it away as a present before I got to the airport back, as I could have been stopped.

There is a massive difference between a Swiss knife (several penknives in one, which you fold away). Everybody in Brownies and Girl Guides had one of these.

But a flick knife? That would get you arrested for sure. They are shockingly dangerous and nasty and have one purpose only.

You are wrong my interest in the case is from the legal POV, which as you know is cold and objective (or is supposed to be). Knox and Raff's claims that they were fitted up is just nonsense,

Having looked at all of the evidence and the court process, I can see exactly why the pair were found guilty. Massei was not at all biased, whereas Hellmann was clearly influenced by sentimental feelings, together with a lack of experience of a murder case.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:13 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

whereas Hellmann was clearly influenced by sentimental feelings, together with a lack of experience of a murder case.
So an appellate court in Italy is incapable of deducing the reality of a simple murder case now? Speaks highly of their local police and prosecutors then i'm sure who would never show such incompetence.

You've no argument. That's why every other PGP stopped posting after the final acquittal. How is it possible to argue the Italian judicial system is both simultaneously competent and simultaneously incompetent, depending on when the outcome suits your own opinion, without looking like a delusional moron? You can't. Hope this helps.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Uhhh yeah, they've been exonerated. When a country's Supreme Court definitively acquits you on all charges related to a murder, states that there was never a single piece of credible, reliable evidence against you, lambasts the police and prosecutors for their shockingly bad and improper performance in pursuing and prosecuting you, excoriates the lower convicting courts for the unlawful ways in which they convicted you, and states that it's a certainty that with the "evidence" set as it stands, no properly-constituted court could ever convict you in the future....

..... they yeah, you've been exonerated.

(And, by the way, and for the umpteenth time, please try to understand the concept of the Marasca SC verdict consciously ensuring that it didn't come into conflict with the two prior settled SC verdicts which related to this case: the Guede verdict and the Knox criminal slander verdict. If you manage to understand this, then you should probably be able to understand why certain parts of the Marasca MR read as they do....)




1) Mignini doesn't "issue hundreds of prosecutions weekly". What a stupid thing to say.

2) Knox has no "suspicious behaviour" to explain away.

Yeah. Cos walking into a police HQ (that's what we call them in English) with a knife in your pocket might be described as somewhat foolish in the circumstances. But if you think that has/had anything whatsoever to offer in terms of evidence of Sollecito's participation in the Kercher murder, well then you're clutching at straws even more than I had thought......


Wow. No words required.


Yeah: Mignini's a danger to justice - a nutter who things he has Sherlock-Holmes-esque levels of sleuthing deduction (ridiculous enough in itself, before even considering that Holmes was purely a fictional construct with fictional powers that were completely absent in the real world...), and who clearly developed a confirmation-biassed, tunnel-vision belief in the guilt of Knox and Sollecito (and then went searching for evidence to "confirm" his belief, while at the same time disregarding (or failing to search for) evidence which conflicted with his belief).

Well........Mignini did correctly deduce that only a woman would cover the body. Oh, wait....

Quote:
Upon receipt of this news, (Jeffrey) Dahmer lured 25-year-old Joseph Bradehoft to his apartment. Bradehoft was strangled and left lying on Dahmer's bed covered with a sheet for two days
(Wikipedia)

Quote:
The offender had covered her body with a blanket after killing her.

It turned out the perpetrator was a man she had recently dated.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...iling-murderer

Quote:
Police would also detail, in their official report, that Lynda's mother, Ruth, lay beside her in the basement of their home, their bodies covered with a blanket and towels over their faces.An investigation by Park Ridge police, the Cook County County Sheriff's Department and the Cook County coroner would conclude that Jeff Fuchs murdered his entire family, likely on Friday, June 14.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburb...801-story.html
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:25 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You've been watching too much West Side Story.

It used to be the case that in Finland every man was entitled to carry a puukko on his person. Indeed, as a kid I had several of these as souvenirs, although extremely sharp, encased in leather sheaths. People admire them for the sheer quality of craftsmanship. My male relatives put them to practical use in their everyday lives. My grandfather, as a hunting shooting farmer, had an entire makasiini of guns. The level of gun ownership being not dissimilar to the US.

However, fact is, people did use these knives as weapons when drunk or enraged with jealousy.

Now the law has changed and it's considered dodgy to even take a puukko out of the country as an innocuous tourist novelty. I did actually pick up the most beautiful handcrafted one at a Mikkeli fair, but good job I gave it away as a present before I got to the airport back, as I could have been stopped.

There is a massive difference between a Swiss knife (several penknives in one, which you fold away). Everybody in Brownies and Girl Guides had one of these.

But a flick knife? That would get you arrested for sure. They are shockingly dangerous and nasty and have one purpose only.

You are wrong my interest in the case is from the legal POV, which as you know is cold and objective (or is supposed to be). Knox and Raff's claims that they were fitted up is just nonsense,

Having looked at all of the evidence and the court process, I can see exactly why the pair were found guilty. Massei was not at all biased, whereas Hellmann was clearly influenced by sentimental feelings, together with a lack of experience of a murder case.
Nonsense. You're the one watching movies and taking your clues from them.
No offense, but you really don't have a clue. Its not that knives can't also be weapons. Of course they can. But millions of law abiding men carry a knife.

My father always had a knife on him at all times as well. He gave me a similar one when I was about ten. My best friend is a police officer and you would be hard pressed to ever finding him without his knife. Me, I keep one in the glove box of both my vehicles, my toolbox, my fishing tackle box and usually one in my pocket. When I come home at night I place it on the dresser valet with my watch.

It means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. One cannot or should not read a thing into that Raffaele had a knife on him, unless you condemn every man with a knife.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:35 PM   #15
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You've been watching too much West Side Story.

It used to be the case that in Finland every man was entitled to carry a puukko on his person. Indeed, as a kid I had several of these as souvenirs, although extremely sharp, encased in leather sheaths. People admire them for the sheer quality of craftsmanship. My male relatives put them to practical use in their everyday lives. My grandfather, as a hunting shooting farmer, had an entire makasiini of guns. The level of gun ownership being not dissimilar to the US.

However, fact is, people did use these knives as weapons when drunk or enraged with jealousy.

Now the law has changed and it's considered dodgy to even take a puukko out of the country as an innocuous tourist novelty. I did actually pick up the most beautiful handcrafted one at a Mikkeli fair, but good job I gave it away as a present before I got to the airport back, as I could have been stopped.

There is a massive difference between a Swiss knife (several penknives in one, which you fold away). Everybody in Brownies and Girl Guides had one of these.

But a flick knife? That would get you arrested for sure. They are shockingly dangerous and nasty and have one purpose only.

You are wrong my interest in the case is from the legal POV, which as you know is cold and objective (or is supposed to be). Knox and Raff's claims that they were fitted up is just nonsense,

Having looked at all of the evidence and the court process, I can see exactly why the pair were found guilty. Massei was not at all biased, whereas Hellmann was clearly influenced by sentimental feelings, together with a lack of experience of a murder case.
Ignoring all the irrelevant puukko bit, flick knives have far more than 'one purpose'. My BIL carries one and uses it quite frequently...and never against a person.

That last highlighted part is just too funny for words. As for Hellmann's "lack of experience of a murder case", we went over that ages ago. I presented a couple murder cases he had previously presided over. Or do you think the Italians would appoint unqualified judges to preside over a high profile murder case like this one was in 2011? Your assessment is nothing more than your own opinion based on nothing but ....your own opinion.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:40 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Ignoring all the irrelevant puukko bit, flick knives have far more than 'one purpose'. My BIL carries one and uses it quite frequently...and never against a person.

That last highlighted part is just too funny for words. As for Hellmann's "lack of experience of a murder case", we went over that ages ago. I presented a couple murder cases he had previously presided over. Or do you think the Italians would appoint unqualified judges to preside over a high profile murder case like this one was in 2011? Your assessment is nothing more than your own opinion based on nothing but ....your own opinion.
If they find her innocent they're unqualified. If they find her guilty they're qualified. I haven't seen such "objective analysis" since the google building 7 campaign
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:42 PM   #17
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Nonsense. You're the one watching movies and taking your clues from them.
No offense, but you really don't have a clue. Its not that knives can't also be weapons. Of course they can. But millions of law abiding men carry a knife.

My father always had a knife on him at all times as well. He gave me a similar one when I was about ten. My best friend is a police officer and you would be hard pressed to ever finding him without his knife. Me, I keep one in the glove box of both my vehicles, my toolbox, my fishing tackle box and usually one in my pocket. When I come home at night I place it on the dresser valet with my watch.

It means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. One cannot or should not read a thing into that Raffaele had a knife on him, unless you condemn every man with a knife.
You forget that, to Vixen, the fact Raff held a knife in his left hand in a photo is proof he is left-handed. The fact he wore a scarf years later in a photo is evidence of him 're-enacting what he wore (despite pics of Mignini, Lumumba and Maresca also wearing scarves) and Raff having a knit cap that did not match Guede's description are all evidence of his guilt.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:45 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
If they find her innocent they're unqualified. If they find her guilty they're qualified. I haven't seen such "objective analysis" since the google building 7 campaign
Considering that Hellmann outranked Massei, I'd hazard a guess that Hellmann had more experience than Massei. The PGP constantly bang on about Hellmann not having experience in criminal cases (which I disproved by providing court cases he'd presided over) but I've never seen Massei's credentials presented.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They haven't been exonerated. Read the MR. 'Strong suspicions' remain.

The only way Knox can explain her suspicious behaviour is to blame Mignini, who by the way issues hundreds of prosecutions weekly, as his job.

As for Raff, he's baffled as to why he can't just walk into a Questura with a knife in his pocket.

Talk about a sense of entitlement. One of Hare's diagnostics for psychopathy.

Mignini describes Raff as 'icy cold'.
Good Lord, Vixen... you crack me up. Yeah, they haven't been exonerated...
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Old 15th May 2018, 06:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Good Lord, Vixen... you crack me up. Yeah, they haven't been exonerated...
The only opinion which counts, is the opinion of the Italian judiciary. This is what Boninsegna wrote in 2016 in acquitting Knox of defamation against the cops....
Quote:
CONSIDERED AS FACTS AND MATTERS OF LAW

The defendant was summoned to trial by the Judge of the Preliminary hearings
with the decree of 20-Mar-2015, for the facts cited in the charges.

The case is a follow-on of a more complex and serious one, regarding the
murder of Meredith Kercher, a young English student, which occurred in Perugia
between 01-Nov and 02-Nov-2007. Those proceedings concluded with the
exoneration of the defendant of murder
, that she was accused of together with her
boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito....
It is beyond me why this needs to be repeated. It may be because some cannot admit that they'd been exonerated in 2015.
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Old 15th May 2018, 06:32 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They haven't been exonerated.
I suggest you take that up with Judge Boninsegna who wrote in his MR:

Quote:
The case is a follow-on of a more complex and serious one, regarding the murder of Meredith Kercher, a young English student, which occurred in Perugia between 01-Nov and 02-Nov-2007. Those proceedings concluded with the exoneration of the defendant of murder, that she was accused of together with her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, and with her conviction for calumny against Patrick Lumumba, after two Assizes trials in Perugia, with initially a conviction followed by exoneration, a partial annulment by the Court of Cassation, for the murder, another appeal trial in Florence, and finally, the definitive annulment of the conviction of the second level verdict delivered in the referral trial.
I know this sticks in your craw, but it is what it is: they were exonerated.

EDIT: Ha, Bill! You beat me to it...but it bears repeating.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 15th May 2018 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 15th May 2018, 06:49 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You forget that, to Vixen, the fact Raff held a knife in his left hand in a photo is proof he is left-handed. The fact he wore a scarf years later in a photo is evidence of him 're-enacting what he wore (despite pics of Mignini, Lumumba and Maresca also wearing scarves) and Raff having a knit cap that did not match Guede's description are all evidence of his guilt.
No I didn't. I said in my earlier post that Vixen sees everything through the lens that they are guilty and then applies her bias to everything.

Oh, still no admission that the charter claim was nonsense.
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Old 15th May 2018, 06:53 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No I didn't. I said in my earlier post that Vixen sees everything through the lens that they are guilty and then applies her bias to everything.

Oh, still no admission that the charter claim was nonsense.
Yep. It's working backwards from a conclusion and then fitting everything to that bias regardless whether it makes sense or not or if there's a perfectly reasonable and innocent explanation.
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Old 15th May 2018, 07:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yep. It's working backwards from a conclusion and then fitting everything to that bias regardless whether it makes sense or not or if there's a perfectly reasonable and innocent explanation.
You can read anything a particular way if you choose to. That she sees that Raffaele has a knife and that must mean he's a killer or that there was a rumor that Raffaele attacked a girl in school years earlier must be true even though a police detective looked into the rumor and found nothing to confirm it. She ticks each one off as proof whereas an unbiased person cannot consider it.
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Old 15th May 2018, 10:21 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You can read anything a particular way if you choose to. That she sees that Raffaele has a knife and that must mean he's a killer or that there was a rumor that Raffaele attacked a girl in school years earlier must be true even though a police detective looked into the rumor and found nothing to confirm it. She ticks each one off as proof whereas an unbiased person cannot consider it.
It was even less than a rumor that Raffaele had attacked a girl; Volturno found no evidence that a girl had ever been attacked with scissors, much less by Raffaele.

I don't remember if it was in this group or elsewhere, but I do remember a discussion I was involved in about the alleged scissors attack. A PGP in that discussion claimed that the school records had been destroyed to protect Raffaele because someone had 'gotten to' the school principal. In truth, it was the standard procedure for the records to be destroyed after a certain period of time had passed as Volturno testified. But this PGP saw this as evidence that Raffaele was somehow being protected by the Mafia. Gotta love 'em.
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:11 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Nonsense. You're the one watching movies and taking your clues from them.
No offense, but you really don't have a clue. Its not that knives can't also be weapons. Of course they can. But millions of law abiding men carry a knife.

My father always had a knife on him at all times as well. He gave me a similar one when I was about ten. My best friend is a police officer and you would be hard pressed to ever finding him without his knife. Me, I keep one in the glove box of both my vehicles, my toolbox, my fishing tackle box and usually one in my pocket. When I come home at night I place it on the dresser valet with my watch.

It means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. One cannot or should not read a thing into that Raffaele had a knife on him, unless you condemn every man with a knife.

FYI it is illegal to carry an offensive weapon in a public place in England. This includes knives, batons and coshes.
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:12 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Ignoring all the irrelevant puukko bit, flick knives have far more than 'one purpose'. My BIL carries one and uses it quite frequently...and never against a person.

That last highlighted part is just too funny for words. As for Hellmann's "lack of experience of a murder case", we went over that ages ago. I presented a couple murder cases he had previously presided over. Or do you think the Italians would appoint unqualified judges to preside over a high profile murder case like this one was in 2011? Your assessment is nothing more than your own opinion based on nothing but ....your own opinion.
When you come to Europe, leave your knives and guns behind.
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:14 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You forget that, to Vixen, the fact Raff held a knife in his left hand in a photo is proof he is left-handed. The fact he wore a scarf years later in a photo is evidence of him 're-enacting what he wore (despite pics of Mignini, Lumumba and Maresca also wearing scarves) and Raff having a knit cap that did not match Guede's description are all evidence of his guilt.
Guede said the man in question 'held a knife in his left hand'. He said nothing about the man being 'left-handed'. Please brush up your debating skills.
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:16 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Good Lord, Vixen... you crack me up. Yeah, they haven't been exonerated...
That is correct. The words 'innocent' and 'exonerated' appear nowhere in the Supreme Court's judgment. The verdict was annulled 'due to insufficient evidence'.

Logic should inform you this does not mean the same as an unequivocal 'not guilty'.
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The only opinion which counts, is the opinion of the Italian judiciary. This is what Boninsegna wrote in 2016 in acquitting Knox of defamation against the cops....
It is beyond me why this needs to be repeated. It may be because some cannot admit that they'd been exonerated in 2015.
That's just careless typing by the court staff.

Exonerated in law has a specific meaning, not the common or garden variety, as is apparent in Boninsgna's chummy version.
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I suggest you take that up with Judge Boninsegna who wrote in his MR:



I know this sticks in your craw, but it is what it is: they were exonerated.

EDIT: Ha, Bill! You beat me to it...but it bears repeating.
Citation please that the Italian version uses the proper Italian legal term for exoneration, and your version is not just a revised 'amandaknox.com' one.
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:22 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is correct. The words 'innocent' and 'exonerated' appear nowhere in the Supreme Court's judgment. The verdict was annulled 'due to insufficient evidence'.

Logic should inform you this does not mean the same as an unequivocal 'not guilty'.

Uhhhh... not this "insufficient evidence" canard again, Vixen.

It doesn't imply what you think it implies. (FYI, every single acquittal in an Italian court (and for that matter in an England & Wales court), other than if the court deems that no crime was even committed or where the defendant can prove his/her innocence BARD to the court, is due to "insufficient evidence". And as you've been told dozens of times now, "insufficient evidence" encompasses everything from just falling short of proof to the BARD standard, right down to zero evidence whatsoever. But of course I'm near-certain that this won't stop you from continuing to try to misdirect with the "insufficient evidence" sleight-of-hand - even though it reeks of intellectual dishonesty and/or ignorance....)
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:23 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's just careless typing by the court staff.

Exonerated in law has a specific meaning, not the common or garden variety, as is apparent in Boninsgna's chummy version.

I must say I LOVE this "careless typing by the court staff" bullcrap! Well played!!!
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:31 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I must say I LOVE this "careless typing by the court staff" bullcrap! Well played!!!
It is a legal fact that the pair are not exonerated.

Therefore, Boninsegna is incorrect. However, I don't believe his words have been accurately translated by your lot.

The defence arguments of Knox and Sollecito are predicated on lies, so no surprise their PR is also full of them.
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:44 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I must say I LOVE this "careless typing by the court staff" bullcrap! Well played!!!

I can just picture the scene in the Italian judiciary typing pool.

TYPIST: "Mama mia!* I hit the wrong keys again! I meant to type colpevoli come il peccato** but my finger slipped and it came out as amiamo questa ragazza americana!***"

SUPERVISOR (slaps back of TYPIST'S head, Vaudeville comedy style) "Samatta yu!**** Now we have to drop all charges and let the obviously still guilty suspects go free! It makes no sense, but that's our ancient sacred law."


*Italian for "Kemo Sabe"
**Italian for "Amanda Knox"
***Italian for "insufficient evidence"
****Italian for "Giuliano Mignini"
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:48 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's just careless typing by the court staff.

Exonerated in law has a specific meaning, not the common or garden variety, as is apparent in Boninsgna's chummy version.
How can we be sure it's not you making typing errors!?
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:52 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Guede said the man in question 'held a knife in his left hand'. He said nothing about the man being 'left-handed'. Please brush up your debating skills.
We must believe what Rudy Guede said. That is axiomatic. Therefore we must believe that his digital penetration of the victim was consensual and not merely a typing error.
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Old 16th May 2018, 04:55 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is a legal fact that the pair are not exonerated.

Therefore, Boninsegna is incorrect. However, I don't believe his words have been accurately translated by your lot.

The defence arguments of Knox and Sollecito are predicated on lies, so no surprise their PR is also full of them.
This is so confusing. It's so hard to decide. Who to believe? An Italian court, or an anonymous internet poster?

Let me get back to you....
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:03 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
We must believe what Rudy Guede said. That is axiomatic. Therefore we must believe that his digital penetration of the victim was consensual and not merely a typing error.
Out of context again. You must stop doing that, BiWi.

The context was, someone argued that Rudy made up his story about a strange man 'on the threshold of Meridith Kercher's room'. I remarked that he managed to describe Raff surprisingly accurately, i.e., a fluently Italian man (and thus, not a sundry Albanian as claimed by Knox and Raff's defences viz a viz their star witness,Aviello), shorter than himself, brown hair (as opposed to Italian black), held the blade in his left hand, was wearing a jacket with a Napapirje logo and wore on his head a white beanie with a red stripe. He said the figure was backlit, from the dim light in Mez' room and the hall light having been switched off whilst he was in the loo.

The PR-gang jumped in and claimed (falsely) that (a) Raff was taller (b) was right-handed, so therefor could not be the man in Rudy's description (c) did not own any such clothing and (d) all Italians have mousy hair.

So, it is nothing to do with 'belief in Rudy', but rather, 'how did Rudy manage to describe Raff so accurately'?

Do try to keep focussed.
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:11 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I can just picture the scene in the Italian judiciary typing pool.

TYPIST: "Mama mia!* I hit the wrong keys again! I meant to type colpevoli come il peccato** but my finger slipped and it came out as amiamo questa ragazza americana!***"

SUPERVISOR (slaps back of TYPIST'S head, Vaudeville comedy style) "Samatta yu!**** Now we have to drop all charges and let the obviously still guilty suspects go free! It makes no sense, but that's our ancient sacred law."


*Italian for "Kemo Sabe"
**Italian for "Amanda Knox"
***Italian for "insufficient evidence"
****Italian for "Giuliano Mignini"

<roflmao> Very droll, I am sure. However, fact is, a legal fact cannot be reversed merely by another person, albeit a judge (from a lower court), making an incorrect statement.

The Supreme Court did not at any point declare the pair to be exonerated. No lower court can outrank it and replace the judgment with a new one, notwithstanding the fact only a court of law can come to a decision on an issue and the issue of guilt and exoneration in respect of the aggravated murder charge was not available for any party to plead at the Boninsegna court.

To make it simple. You get a parking ticket. You apeal it. You fail and are told to pay the penalty.

You then go to a Family Law court to finalise your divorce. The judge happens to write in his summing up that you succeeded in your appeal against your parking ticket.

Homework: what is the actual legal situation in respect of the parking ticket?

I'll just get into my listening pose.
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