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Old 3rd March 2019, 11:01 PM   #1
Lukas1986
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Study on Dreams of Hospice Patients Approaching Death

A new study that is based on dreams when people are approaching death:

https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2019...-dreams-study/

Interesting stuff in this study I found are these:

1. People who have these dreams claim they are very profound and give them peace similar to NDEs:

Quote:
“What’s clear is people are universally saying this feels more real and different than any dream I’ve ever had before,” he said.
Quote:
They’ve found that the dreams are often comforting and make death less scary.
Quote:
“They’ll come of these experiences and say they want to go back,” said Dr. Kerr.
Source: https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2019...-dreams-study/

2. The people are meeting relatives they already know they are dead so no paranormal explanation needed because children who do not know any dead relative dream about their dead animals which means beings they are emotional attached with. Dreams are mostly based on our emotions that is why we have nightmares from films or other stimulants where are emotions:

Quote:
When children are dying, they often don’t know any people who have passed, so they dream of deceased pets.

A girl named Jessica explains her dreams: “I dream about my old dog Shadow, that has passed away.”
Source: https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2019...-dreams-study/

3. Not all people have these dreams similar to NDEs:

Quote:
In 10 years, he and his team have documented 14,000 cases. Eighty percent of his patients report dreams or visions.
Source: https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2019...-dreams-study/

Conclusion: Thanks to this study it seems that NDEs can have the same mechanism as these dreams. That when a person is dying and he knows it he can have a NDE which is like this dream. No paranormal explanation needed also this shows again that NDEs are not to be taken as evidence for a afterlife when dreams near death have the a similar effect.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 11:13 PM   #2
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That conclusion is a bit of an unsupported stretch.

News you can use: 80% of people recall their dreams.

Carl Jung, with Freud tried exploring the meaning of dreams. The research never went anywhere.
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Old 4th March 2019, 11:28 AM   #3
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I've been occasionally dreaming of grandma ever since she passed away, more than a decade now, so does that mean I'm dying really really slowly?

Or maybe I'm a time lord, and i have just been regenerating a dozen times
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Old 4th March 2019, 11:55 AM   #4
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There are records of these 14,000 cases?
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:08 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I've been occasionally dreaming of grandma ever since she passed away, more than a decade now, so does that mean I'm dying really really slowly?
Yes.
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:22 PM   #6
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Dang. Based on previous experience, I was starting to think I might be immortal
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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Old 5th March 2019, 07:31 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Lukas1986 View Post

Conclusion: Thanks to this study it seems that NDEs can have the same mechanism as these dreams. That when a person is dying and he knows it he can have a NDE which is like this dream. No paranormal explanation needed also this shows again that NDEs are not to be taken as evidence for a afterlife when dreams near death have the a similar effect.
This seems reasonable and a simple explanation for NDE just like that for reincarnation and other non-earthly claims. All we have it what is in our brains.

Now, the credulous news coverage is another thing entirely...
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Old 5th March 2019, 02:20 PM   #8
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Actually, there is another even better explanation. Although, to be clear, they're not mutually exclusive.

The issue is that nobody actually has photographic memory. The brain routinely rewrites history, filling in details you've forgot, or even whole actions or scenes. The way that the brain stores memories and associations also fails to also record the source. You can remember something just because you heard that somewhere else, or even said it yourself a few times. That's how false memories work.

What I'm getting to is that you don't even have to have dreamed the whole heavens thing when you were brain-dead for a few seconds. (In fact, if the people claiming that specific kind of events actually had enough brain activity to dream, they wouldn't have been brain-dead for a few seconds in the first place.) It can also be created post-facto as a false memory.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:34 PM   #9
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When a loved one of mine was in hospice she was on morphine for her final days. Were drugs taken into account? I'm sure a lot of things can affect dreams.

Like I care.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:05 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
There are records of these 14,000 cases?

Yes wow!

14000 cases in 10 years, that's almost 4 per day. Given there would have been several interviews with each patient, this Dr. Christopher Kerr and his staff must have been doing little else. Patients probably made up stuff so they could get some attention.

So we see some footage of the good doctor giving a presentation to an audience also. This stuff sells and Kerr may have forged a niche market for himself on the circuit. Couldn't be his motive I suppose ....... nah, that's way to cynical.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:04 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
When a loved one of mine was in hospice she was on morphine for her final days. Were drugs taken into account?

My first thought as well. When my mother died she was drugged out of her skull for the last couple of days, and yet her drug-induced hallucinations seemed to be totally paranoid: That she was being kept at the hospital against her will.
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:30 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
My first thought as well. When my mother died she was drugged out of her skull for the last couple of days, and yet her drug-induced hallucinations seemed to be totally paranoid: That she was being kept at the hospital against her will.
She actually was, wasn't she? I doubt that she actually wanted to be there.
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:30 PM   #13
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I have a medical condition that is chronic and managed but that eventually will turn acutely lethal. I was diagnosed 6+ years ago so I've learned to deal with it and it doesn't darken my life most days. But I do think about death probably more often than the average healthy person. And I do often have dreams that contain relatives and friends who are dead in reality but who are alive in the dream. But these dreams are of fairly mundane normal day circumstances and events and do not involve any connections to an afterlife. Waking up I often find it pleasant that I had a chance to spend a few moments with my brain's projected memories of my dead Mom and Dad, even though I know it was not really them.

I presume that I am very likely to die in a hospital and that there is a good chance that I will have some type of "NDE" experience involving seeing dead friends and family. I wonder: will it make the end a little more enjoyable for me even if I knew it was just a chemical manifestation of my dying brain? Or, as in most dreams, will I even be able to tell it apart from reality as it occurs? I am fairly uncomfortable about the latter scenario... I don't want my last thoughts to fool me.
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Old 12th April 2019, 03:37 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
She actually was, wasn't she? I doubt that she actually wanted to be there.

Actually, I think it had to do with her denial of approaching death. Back then, early 1970s, the medical profession tended to make it easier for terminally ill patients to pretend that they were going to recover. She obviously didn't want to be dying from cancer, but nobody kept her there against her will. And when she started hallucinating, it didn't make much sense to talk about will at all.
For the last two hours of her life, she kept lifting and staring at her left wrist. She had been a ladies' hairdresser until she became a cancer patient: How long until the nest customer arrives? So I put her watch back on to let her gesture make some kind of sense, but I don't think that she noticed the difference.
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Old 12th April 2019, 04:00 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I have a medical condition that is chronic and managed but that eventually will turn acutely lethal. I was diagnosed 6+ years ago so I've learned to deal with it and it doesn't darken my life most days. But I do think about death probably more often than the average healthy person. And I do often have dreams that contain relatives and friends who are dead in reality but who are alive in the dream. But these dreams are of fairly mundane normal day circumstances and events and do not involve any connections to an afterlife. Waking up I often find it pleasant that I had a chance to spend a few moments with my brain's projected memories of my dead Mom and Dad, even though I know it was not really them.

I presume that I am very likely to die in a hospital and that there is a good chance that I will have some type of "NDE" experience involving seeing dead friends and family. I wonder: will it make the end a little more enjoyable for me even if I knew it was just a chemical manifestation of my dying brain? Or, as in most dreams, will I even be able to tell it apart from reality as it occurs? I am fairly uncomfortable about the latter scenario... I don't want my last thoughts to fool me.

Life is cruel sometimes, and so is death, of course.
But at least what happens in one's dying brain is inconsequential. In life as it is, it annoys me that I sometimes notice the absurdity of my dreams, causing me to wake up. If the same thing happens when I'm dying, I don't think that I'll mind as much - it's not that I will need to be well rested for where I'm (not) going.
And I haven't heard of anybody else whose sense of logic prevented them from dying.
I hope that you aren't going anytime soon!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2019, 04:04 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Lukas1986 View Post
Conclusion: Thanks to this study it seems that NDEs can have the same mechanism as these dreams. That when a person is dying and he knows it he can have a NDE which is like this dream


While I think you're probably right, I don't believe that this study supports your conclusion. It certainly doesn't conflict with it, but it's not what I would classify as evidence in your favor.



Originally Posted by dann View Post
My first thought as well. When my mother died she was drugged out of her skull for the last couple of days, and yet her drug-induced hallucinations seemed to be totally paranoid: That she was being kept at the hospital against her will.

She may well have been suffering from ICU psychosis. When on a lot of drugs and confined to a bed, a person's brain doesn't receive enough stimulation. There's no division between day and night. There's no fixed period for sleep. There's nothing to see or do, and the drugged brain couldn't comprehend it anyway.

In these circumstances, patients can and do become psychotic - with all the hallucinations and paranoia that accompany it. As they recover, gain strength and get off drugs, the psychosis abides. A dying person wouldn't get that chance.

I personally have experienced this. While in the ICU after heart surgery, I became exceedingly paranoid. I thought the nurses were talking to each other through my breathing tube. I thought one nurse hated me because I had sold out by allowing my book, Wicked, to be made into a musical. (I absolutely did not write Wicked.) I not only hallucinated an entire movie I watched on television, I hallucinated the television itself. There was none in my room. And, of course, I tried to strangle my wife. (I was very weak. She avoided the attack by taking half a step back.)

After I pulled out several tubes of various sorts, I was placed in soft restraints For my own safety. As you might imagine, this did not exactly help with my paranoia.

ICU psychosis is largely preventable. The hospital staff just has to care enough. The bed should be positioned with a view of the window, which should be open during the day and shuttered at night. Lights should be on during the day and there should be as little light as possible at night. TV should be turned on when possible during the day, even if it's just the weather channel, just to give the mind something to do. Certain anti-psychosis medications can also help.

My condolences on your mother's passing.
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Old 12th April 2019, 04:39 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
In these circumstances, patients can and do become psychotic - with all the hallucinations and paranoia that accompany it.

Very scary! It almost makes me hope to get the whole tunnel, light, welcoming relatives and Jesus version instead!

Quote:
My condolences on your mother's passing.

It was August 1972, I was still in high school, and she was a very nasty woman anyway.
Now that I consider it: Cancel the welcoming relatives!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2019, 05:09 PM   #18
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When my long time friend died recently, it was interesting to observe those last couple of weeks when he was just on morphine and water.


Interesting in that when I met him 44 years ago, he was an active atheist, and remained one until a few years ago. I don't know why, there was no loss in his life, and he couldn't really explain the change, other than he did meet Dr. Russ Hugganaught - I'm not sure how to spell his name, but he has a NDE lecture once a month, that Dan attended. What ever happened, he went from atheist to woo.

And, when he was dying, that was exacerbated. In his last morphine days, he kept saying how excited he was to be dying, (I know that I had never heard that before, and probably won't again) because he was receiving validations. He loved what he said he was learning about "the afterlife", his "preview", and seemed truly excited. As I have written before, he told me he would send me "a sign".. This is what happened.

At sunset on the eve that he died, I turned the lights off, and lit a memorial candle, a life long tradition. Suddenly, the over head light turned on and off 3 times. Then stayed off. Once, in a pre-death talk, he said he would do the sign using electricity.

Yes, yes, I know. There may be something up with the wiring in the light. The bulbs are new, but the fixture old. And yes, it could have happened any time, any day. I fully understand the likely explanations, and understand coincidence, so I'm good there, and I really can tell the difference between paranormal and reality.

But I have to make a confession. When the lights turned on and off, I decided that as coincidences go, this one was pretty good. Good enough to get a smile out of me.
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Old 17th April 2019, 05:03 PM   #19
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Just old senile people babbling. No disrespect to the elderly, but this experiment can't be taken seriously because there's no proof of an afterlife unless you ask people where they are after they're dead, and these people are still alive.
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Old 18th April 2019, 10:01 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by hank hill View Post
Just old senile people babbling. No disrespect to the elderly, but this experiment can't be taken seriously because there's no proof of an afterlife unless you ask people where they are after they're dead, and these people are still alive.
I completely disagree. No, they are NOT "babbling". After being with 4 or 5 people that were near death. They describe what they are experiencing. They repeat conversations they have had with those already deceased.

3 days before my step-father died, he described in detail the different discussions he had with loved one, dead for many years. He had been taken off morphine, and he was resting but alert.

Far from "babbling". I don't know your age, but I assume you are young, and quite proud of your skeptic abilities, wanting to impress and prove yourself. So, take your time, stick around and learn, none of us have all the answers, and can learn a lot from each other. It isn't about show-boating how good of a skeptic we are.
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Old 18th April 2019, 10:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I completely disagree. No, they are NOT "babbling". After being with 4 or 5 people that were near death. They describe what they are experiencing. They repeat conversations they have had with those already deceased.

3 days before my step-father died, he described in detail the different discussions he had with loved one, dead for many years. He had been taken off morphine, and he was resting but alert.

Far from "babbling". I don't know your age, but I assume you are young, and quite proud of your skeptic abilities, wanting to impress and prove yourself. So, take your time, stick around and learn, none of us have all the answers, and can learn a lot from each other. It isn't about show-boating how good of a skeptic we are.
I agree that "babbling" may not be the best term. Still, lucidly describing 2-way conversations with dead people certainly does not suggest rationality.
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Old 18th April 2019, 03:31 PM   #22
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Call it "rambling" or "mumbling". I dunno, but the brain doesn't work all that great 3 minutes before you die. That's science. Death is brought on by the end of organ function. That includes the brain.
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Old 19th April 2019, 01:18 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I completely disagree. No, they are NOT "babbling". After being with 4 or 5 people that were near death. They describe what they are experiencing. They repeat conversations they have had with those already deceased.
And you know that these are real, and not hallucinations, how?
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Old 19th April 2019, 03:06 PM   #24
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There is none.
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Old 19th April 2019, 03:07 PM   #25
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No evidence whatsoever.
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Old 19th April 2019, 03:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
And you know that these are real, and not hallucinations, how?
Fair question, but I only his description of who, when, where, these people visited. At the time he was telling me, I believe, that he was referring to times when he had hallucinations.

The visions were hallucinations. At the time he was telling me about them, he did not, in anyway, appear to be anything but lucid.
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Old 20th April 2019, 12:46 PM   #27
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Generally when you're dying slowly, your organs are slowing or failing. Your heart may not be pumping as vigorously, or your lungs may be oxygenating your blood poorly. This means your blood may be filling with toxic byproducts both primarily (the liver and kidneys aren't able to do their jobs) and secondarily, from cell death all over your body. If your circulation or oxygenation is compromised, your brain is unable to function properly even without the rest of the cascading failures.

When my dad died 2 years ago of congestive heart failure and kidney failure, even his lucid periods weren't entirely lucid, and once he switched to palliative care/comfort measures they became less frequent. His last one was 3 days before he died, when he skipped his pain medication long enough to have a phone call with the only grandchild that hadn't been able to come out right away. Once that was done, he let go, sank into a coma, and died without ever saying another word.
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:21 PM   #28
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Until there's some way of contacting people after they die, we can't say what happens after death. This only looks at people APPROACHING death.
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:43 PM   #29
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Biologists and biochemists know all about what happens after death. They are usually quite easy to contact if you do so before they die.
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:45 PM   #30
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Ha ha.............................
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