ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 15th April 2019, 07:01 AM   #1561
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,700
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But there are no "Leave" voters, in the population or in politics.
There are only different bins of various exit deals.

It would be a very bad referendum if Leave got only one option.
Ranked choice voting, stay in, the deal on the table or no deal. Seems pretty simple.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 07:15 AM   #1562
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,515
Quote:
Brexit no-deal planning meant a council destroyed 17,000 of Britain's rarest orchids in one day - and it will take up to eight years for them to grow back.

Volunteers from Kent Wildlife Trust had been lovingly tending the purple carpet of rare bee and common orchids for over 15 years. A spokesperson said they were "devastated" by the news.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...itains-rarest/

What I find more interesting than the story is the fact that the DT chose to report it. Maybe they thought that associating brexit damage with destroyed flowers would help their cause?
__________________
It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 07:27 AM   #1563
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,836
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ranked choice voting, stay in, the deal on the table or no deal. Seems pretty simple.
Unfortunately, so does the electorate. Anything other than a mark-the-cross-by-the-exact-thing-you-want referendum with only two options will have everyone up in arms about how it's too complicated and prone to abuse because of the way different numbers of ranking points are attached to different choices, or because second choices are ranked the same as first when a vote gets transferred, or because second choices somehow aren't ranked the same according to some piece of bizarre sophistry. And, of course, a simpe yes/no will have everybody equally up in arms over which two choices are on offer, either because theirs isn't included, or because the other one has a chance of beating theirs.

I'm not suggesting that any other idea is better, of course. For quite a long time now there has been no viable course of action available, including the course of not taking any action.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 07:54 AM   #1564
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 9,834
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
... I think Brexit would make a fascinating study subject in collective stupidity.

McHrozni
Another good one. I often wonder if any of us is as free of simple biases as he/she thinks. Iirc it's the amygdala that calls the shots, and the rest of the brain makes up excuses that sound reasonable, retrofitting our reactions and swiftly vesting them with nobler motives. Maybe this guy doesn't like the sound of German, or got dumped by his French girlfriend, or watched Master and Commander 150 thousand times....

Taking that back and happily contradicting myself, when there has been time to deliberate, no excuses are valid. The dark side must be calling out to him, Obi-Won.

***
Brexit: As for this reprieve from crashing out, it seems nothing at all will change, especially in light of those articles and polls people linked me to back up a few posts. I sure hope this delay does not mean months of hearing "cannot be dominated by Germans" again, as I fear the Germans have their own weariness of "wayward" partners and may lose their own North Star. Golly, I really dislike the 21st century so far.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 08:56 AM   #1565
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,700
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I guess there are people out there who that although it isn't a good outcome or acceptable compromise, no-deal is still better than remaining.

Then again, perhaps people have been providing mutually incompatible answers to questions.
That would fit with Brexit as a whole so probably.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 09:11 AM   #1566
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,700
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's just as bad, if not worse, in the US.
The US Congress cannot even get a budget done on time. Legally, they have to do it by Sep 30th or the Government shuts down. Inevitably..even when the White House and the Congress are of the same party and are pretty much on the same page they miss it and have to pass stopgap spending measure (callec Contiuing Resolutions or CRs) to keep the Government open.
When Congress and the White House are at odds..we just saw what happened.
No that was when congress and the white house were controlled by the same party.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 10:21 PM   #1567
fromdownunder
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,358
What is needed is a referendum asking voters if they want another Brexit referendum.


Norm
__________________
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain


fromdownunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th April 2019, 10:55 PM   #1568
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,808
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I often wonder if any of us is as free of simple biases as he/she thinks.
I'm certain we're not. Each and every one of us is outright stupid when it comes to some question, issue or problem somewhere. Some have more obviously, while others have fewer, but everyone has a blindspot or three. The best we can do is to be stupid about question that don't matter much.

Which questions are those? That's a whole new rabbit hole, but I can say questions that impact whole societies and continents - like Brexit does - are questions that surely matter a whole lot.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2019, 01:56 AM   #1569
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,506
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Another good one. I often wonder if any of us is as free of simple biases as he/she thinks. Iirc it's the amygdala that calls the shots, and the rest of the brain makes up excuses that sound reasonable, retrofitting our reactions and swiftly vesting them with nobler motives.

I'm not sure about the amygdala or about trying to assign any physical parts of the brain or specific processes in the brain, but I think that psychologists have shown what a huge factor Confirmation Bias is. And it's extremely difficult for any of us to avoid that.

In almost everything we do, we are constantly looking for explanations based on what we had already believed about all sorts of things.

In part that's probably a natural and inescapable process of how any of us attempts to understand anything. But as we get older, passing from childhood into adult years, it seems as if it's increasingly a false, and partly intentional way of convincing ourselves that each piece of new information confirms that we are indeed correct in what what we had already previously believed to be the truth of the matter.

That's something that's almost impossible for adults to guard against. And imho its an absolutely huge factor in almost everything any of us does, says, or thinks.

But again, that's why science has become so successful, ie because it's methods and processes try always to remove or minimise that effect of confirmation bias, whereas the two earlier believed methods of "knowing", ie religion and philosophy, had for thousands of years made little or no such attempt to guard against confirmation bias. Though even in science, and even at the highest levels, it's still a factor that is very hard to avoid.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2019, 04:18 AM   #1570
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,684
More reasons why certain business leaders and entrepreneurs are so strongly pro-Brexit:

Quote:
The European Parliament has approved new EU rules to protect workers in the so-called "gig economy".

The law sets minimum rights and demands increased transparency for those in "on-demand" jobs, such as at Uber or Deliveroo.

It proposes more predictable hours and compensation for cancelled work, and an end to "abusive practices" around casual contracts.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947220

Quote:
Whistleblowers across the European Union are set to win greater protections under a new law aimed at encouraging reports of wrongdoing.

The legislation being considered on Tuesday calls for whistleblowers to be shielded from retaliation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47936682
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2019, 09:11 AM   #1571
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 11,558
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I'm not sure about the amygdala or about trying to assign any physical parts of the brain or specific processes in the brain, but I think that psychologists have shown what a huge factor Confirmation Bias is. And it's extremely difficult for any of us to avoid that.

In almost everything we do, we are constantly looking for explanations based on what we had already believed about all sorts of things.
I can't recall its name offhand (sodding cold) but there is a theory called something like "defensive argument" that proposes that we build an immune system for incoming ideas such that they are tested to a higher standard against older ideas. How this explains people who jump on every loony theory is left as an exercise for the reader.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2019, 09:14 AM   #1572
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,836
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I can't recall its name offhand (sodding cold) but there is a theory called something like "defensive argument" that proposes that we build an immune system for incoming ideas such that they are tested to a higher standard against older ideas.
I think part of the problem with Brexit is that "Being in the EU" is, for many people, still classed under "incoming ideas," while "Leaving the EU" is seen as "not being in the EU" and is therefore classed under "old ideas"

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th April 2019, 12:28 PM   #1573
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 19,826
Channel 4 News investigation reveals how Arron Banks' pro-Brexit group Leave.EU faked a migrant-crossing video and appeared to have staged photos of migrants attacking women in London.

https://www.channel4.com/news/reveal...igrant-footage
Captain_Swoop is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 05:41 AM   #1574
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,389
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Channel 4 News investigation reveals how Arron Banks' pro-Brexit group Leave.EU faked a migrant-crossing video and appeared to have staged photos of migrants attacking women in London.

https://www.channel4.com/news/reveal...igrant-footage
Yeah but remain said....
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 08:38 AM   #1575
Cosmic Yak
Master Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 2,649
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
More reasons why certain business leaders and entrepreneurs are so strongly pro-Brexit:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47947220



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47936682
Why it pays to read past the headlines:

1st link:
Quote:
The UK will only be obliged to implement the law if it is still a member state of the EU three years after the new regulation enters into force. But it has already introduced similar legislation at a national level.
2nd link:
Quote:
The European Commission says just 10 members - France, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Lithuania, Malta, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Sweden and the UK - had a "comprehensive law" protecting whistleblowers.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 01:17 PM   #1576
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 9,834
I realize it is Easter time, but this dull thud that is the extension, a reprieve from crashing out, seems awfully tranquil, as if the recent trauma of trying to find a way were too much to face again. This doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm an adrenaline junky after the last several weeks.

TLDR: It's awfully quiet, isn't it?
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 01:20 PM   #1577
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,394
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I realize it is Easter time, but this dull thud that is the extension, a reprieve from crashing out, seems awfully tranquil, as if the recent trauma of trying to find a way were too much to face again. This doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm an adrenaline junky after the last several weeks.

TLDR: It's awfully quiet, isn't it?
They're on holiday, recharging their batteries before getting mightily tangled-up again in a few weeks.

I'm also reading that for May to put her 'deal' before parliament again she'd have to start a new session of parliament (otherwise Bercow might shout at her). That would mean an end to the DUP deal, so they might vote down the Queen's speech, with all that entails. Dunno if all that is exactly true.

The holiday home just below our place is owned by a lovely German couple, retired now so they visit at least twice a year. They stopped by for beer and snacks and the guy, Uli, asked me if I was any the wiser about Brexit since we last met last autumn. No, I said, I'm more ignorant. And it's true.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

Last edited by GlennB; 17th April 2019 at 01:28 PM.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 02:37 PM   #1578
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,387
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
They're on holiday, recharging their batteries before getting mightily tangled-up again in a few weeks.

I'm also reading that for May to put her 'deal' before parliament again she'd have to start a new session of parliament (otherwise Bercow might shout at her). That would mean an end to the DUP deal, so they might vote down the Queen's speech, with all that entails. Dunno if all that is exactly true.

The holiday home just below our place is owned by a lovely German couple, retired now so they visit at least twice a year. They stopped by for beer and snacks and the guy, Uli, asked me if I was any the wiser about Brexit since we last met last autumn. No, I said, I'm more ignorant. And it's true.
Every bi-weekly Friday telecon I have with Hamburg, my colleagues ask about Brexit. I think they just enjoy my rants - generally saying that of course I haven't a scooby what's going on, because nobody does including our nominal prime minister.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 02:52 PM   #1579
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,506
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I realize it is Easter time, but this dull thud that is the extension, a reprieve from crashing out, seems awfully tranquil, as if the recent trauma of trying to find a way were too much to face again. This doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm an adrenaline junky after the last several weeks.

TLDR: It's awfully quiet, isn't it?

I think parliament is due to meet again on 23rd April, so not long to wait until we get all the same proposals and votes all over again (eg, Mrs May's deal seems sure to be revived).
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 02:59 PM   #1580
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,859
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I think parliament is due to meet again on 23rd April, so not long to wait until we get all the same proposals and votes all over again (eg, Mrs May's deal seems sure to be revived).

Will that give them enough time to replenish their reserves of stupid?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 06:40 PM   #1581
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 23,062
I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?
SezMe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 06:58 PM   #1582
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,235
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?

I've been trying to keep up with it from my feeds from the Guardian. They have one email newsletter that is just for Brexit.

It doesn't help, though. I'm still hopelessly confused, and it keeps on getting worse.

Apparently I'm not alone in this, more than a few Brits in this thread say the same thing.

__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 07:42 PM   #1583
fromdownunder
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,358
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm still hopelessly confused, and it keeps on getting worse.



You are obviously ready to be a Member of the British Parliament.


Norm
__________________
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain


fromdownunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 07:57 PM   #1584
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,235
Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
You are obviously ready to be a Member of the British Parliament.


Norm

I said I was confused.

Not brain dead.

Sheesh.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 09:41 PM   #1585
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,387
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?
The Express* is good and carries lots of level-headed reporting. I recommend its coverage of Princess Diana (she recently died, apparently). You will also get to.learn about a the severe weather that hasn't yet happened to the UK, as well as learning how Brexit is being betrayed.


*Uncyclopedia had a fairly accurate article about it, which was based on the Wikipedia article on Pepsi, but with "Pepsi" replaced with "Daily Express" and "Coke" replaced with "Daily Mail"
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 11:19 PM   #1586
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,387
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The Express* is good and carries lots of level-headed reporting. I recommend its coverage of Princess Diana (she recently died, apparently). You will also get to.learn about a the severe weather that hasn't yet happened to the UK, as well as learning how Brexit is being betrayed.


*Uncyclopedia had a fairly accurate article about it, which was based on the Wikipedia article on Pepsi, but with "Pepsi" replaced with "Daily Express" and "Coke" replaced with "Daily Mail"
I am not being completely sarcastic here. If you read the Express, you will understand how someone who gets their news from such a publication could still be in favour of Brexit.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th April 2019, 02:15 AM   #1587
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,389
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I said I was confused.



Not brain dead.



Sheesh.
Don't worry I've reported him for making such a disgusting personal attack.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th April 2019, 05:46 AM   #1588
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 9,834
A wishful thought for an Orwellian, doublespeak world.

We all put forward our ideas as to how to argue democracy from first principles, providing definitions for important terms. This provides both semantic tether and logical structure. We then state those principles in terms of political freedom and political equality, now well-differentiated from the loose, even poorly-intentioned, terminology used on both sides of the pond today. Next, we unravel the issue as to whether or not being a minority voting block in a larger voting population is the end of democratic life, and the very definition of "tyranny." If properly done, my view is that every single issue I've heard about Brexit could be resolved in terms of the grounding political philosophy everyone says they wish to honour, but few really do. Then we send a copy to every member of Parliament, Congress, and the EU.

Mo' better wishful:
Those west of Europe might take the chance to see which, if any, logical derivations of human rights includes the right to bear firearms.
Or: We realize than few, if any, believe in democracy beyond being a means to organize in-group, tribal affairs, violating one of its core first principles, which is how we got the last century and this.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2019, 01:08 AM   #1589
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,433
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?
Try Politico Europe:

https://www.politico.eu/section/brexit/

and Tom McTague's twitter feed.

Tony Connelly of RTE gets a lot of inside detail (although he will never criticise the Irish Government).
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2019, 03:15 AM   #1590
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,808
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I think parliament is due to meet again on 23rd April, so not long to wait until we get all the same proposals and votes all over again (eg, Mrs May's deal seems sure to be revived).
Not so much survived as everything else turned into significantly more advanced stages of decay.

There is no majority for Bremain, it is the stated goal of two largest parliamentary parties. No deal Brexit in a vote fares even worse than the deal. Obviously Theresa May will continue pushing it, to some extent I fully appreciate why: nothing else is remotely acceptable.

A democrat would call a second referendum between the three choices, but neither she nor Corbyn belong to the delluded sect that think the opinions of people should be taken into account, if there is a chance they might disagree with policy.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2019, 06:10 AM   #1591
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 10,995
Is the reason why it's now October so it'll be spooky?
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2019, 08:58 AM   #1592
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,071
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Is the reason why it's now October so it'll be spooky?
It's because they don't want it to run into early November....
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2019, 10:41 AM   #1593
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,088
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Every bi-weekly Friday telecon I have with Hamburg, my colleagues ask about Brexit. I think they just enjoy my rants - generally saying that of course I haven't a scooby what's going on, because nobody does including our nominal prime minister.
Yeah, I have that too.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I realize it is Easter time, but this dull thud that is the extension, a reprieve from crashing out, seems awfully tranquil, as if the recent trauma of trying to find a way were too much to face again. This doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm an adrenaline junky after the last several weeks.

TLDR: It's awfully quiet, isn't it?
The idiots aren't in parliamentary session.

Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Will that give them enough time to replenish their reserves of stupid?
Judging by the rants of the pro-Brexit EurParl hopefuls; yes, definately.

Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I've been following the Brexit fiasco mostly with USA-centric sites that also carry some international news. But I'd like a more local (to the UK) site. There are lots of choices; would you locals like to make a recommendation?
Start here.
Actually start here. It's a decent summary of UKGov's stupidity, arrogance and ineptitude.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2019, 04:53 AM   #1594
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 9,834
Bump, because me evil....

Actually, look at the nice comments below this little Donald Tusk* video. Europe, at its finest!


*My antiBrexit EU hero.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2019, 05:58 AM   #1595
malbui
Beauf
 
malbui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,396
Pretty much every podcast I download at the moment is interrupted by a PIA by UK Gov telling me that if I'm a UK citizen resident in CH or France, depending on where I'm listening, I might be affected by Brexit in a variety of ways and that I should seek information.

I hope my majestically raised middle finger can be seen all the way from Westminster.
__________________
"But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"
malbui is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2019, 06:28 PM   #1596
Traveler Steve
Scholar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 105
I just don't know. From this USA citizen, it just seems like a bad idea to rip yourself out of an alliance just because... uh, I'm not sure, but because you want to control... borders? It seems to me that this could be controlled internally - tougher rules and regulations, if that's what a majority wish, and not toss away what seems to be an agreement that is working (more or less).

Of course I have no foundation to stand on when the leader of my country refers to people wishing to come in from the south as criminals, rapists, and worse; and deliberately rips children away from their parents, but I can only say that I certainly reject that policy and reject this evil narcissist.

But not to derail this thread, it seems like everyone in the UK is taking a collective breath right now. I read a number of articles that state that no Brexit is more likely than no deal Brexit... I wanted to know if people feel that is the case.

Will reason and sanity prevail (at least my opinion) and nothing but a bunch of time and money is wasted, and the UK stays in the EU? Or will there be some type of exit?

I'm not sure how much (if any) this will affect me, but I am very interested, as a concerned bystander.
Traveler Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2019, 07:35 PM   #1597
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,140
Originally Posted by Traveler Steve View Post
I just don't know. From this USA citizen, it just seems like a bad idea to rip yourself out of an alliance just because... uh, I'm not sure, but because you want to control... borders? It seems to me that this could be controlled internally - tougher rules and regulations, if that's what a majority wish, and not toss away what seems to be an agreement that is working (more or less).

Of course I have no foundation to stand on when the leader of my country refers to people wishing to come in from the south as criminals, rapists, and worse; and deliberately rips children away from their parents, but I can only say that I certainly reject that policy and reject this evil narcissist.

But not to derail this thread, it seems like everyone in the UK is taking a collective breath right now. I read a number of articles that state that no Brexit is more likely than no deal Brexit... I wanted to know if people feel that is the case.

Will reason and sanity prevail (at least my opinion) and nothing but a bunch of time and money is wasted, and the UK stays in the EU? Or will there be some type of exit?

I'm not sure how much (if any) this will affect me, but I am very interested, as a concerned bystander.
Pretty much my view from downunder.
In fact I am one of the few who think New Zealand should exercise the option to join Australia.
I can see nothing but pain for those least able to afford Brexit, and Rees Mogg and co have already plundered what they need.
The less paper work the better for a happy life. Maybe the labour laws are onerous, but the best people still get by under any system with honest toil.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 12:29 AM   #1598
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,277
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Pretty much my view from downunder.
In fact I am one of the few who think New Zealand should exercise the option to join Australia.
I can see nothing but pain for those least able to afford Brexit, and Rees Mogg and co have already plundered what they need.
The less paper work the better for a happy life. Maybe the labour laws are onerous, but the best people still get by under any system with honest toil.
I think Rees-Mogg and co have plenty more plundering planned. The problem is we have plenty of turkeys who still insist that when the voted for Christmas they knew perfectly well what they were voting for, didn't believe VoteXMas' tales of Santa and presents, and are demanding their sage and onion. They won't be happy until we're all stuffed.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 03:26 AM   #1599
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 9,834
Somehow I wish we could see a full-on Brexit that leads to its inevitable downward spiral, only to be reversed by the election of a new breed of UK statesmen/people unbeholden to old party platforms, a sweeping and deep national examination of conscience and politic, and finally, a sober and wide-eyed return to the EU as not only a willing, but an intellectually committed and enthusiastic partner.

TLDR: No-Brexit is likely to lead to seriously "ill" British MEPs in the EU Parliament all over again. No hurry to see that rerun.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 06:21 AM   #1600
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,653
Originally Posted by Traveler Steve View Post
I just don't know. From this USA citizen, it just seems like a bad idea to rip yourself out of an alliance just because... uh, I'm not sure, but because you want to control... borders? It seems to me that this could be controlled internally - tougher rules and regulations, if that's what a majority wish, and not toss away what seems to be an agreement that is working (more or less).

Of course I have no foundation to stand on when the leader of my country refers to people wishing to come in from the south as criminals, rapists, and worse; and deliberately rips children away from their parents, but I can only say that I certainly reject that policy and reject this evil narcissist.

But not to derail this thread, it seems like everyone in the UK is taking a collective breath right now. I read a number of articles that state that no Brexit is more likely than no deal Brexit... I wanted to know if people feel that is the case.

Will reason and sanity prevail (at least my opinion) and nothing but a bunch of time and money is wasted, and the UK stays in the EU? Or will there be some type of exit?

I'm not sure how much (if any) this will affect me, but I am very interested, as a concerned bystander.
As usual its (a lot) more complicated than that. The populous have been subjected to anti immigrant and anti EU propaganda by huge media and political machines for decades while at the same time the system has been propped up by bringing in 'serf labour' to do the work nobody else wants to and educated immigrants to do the work the politicians have seen fit not to fund properly domestically.

Meanwhile austeriry and political decisions to shaft the average person in favour of multinationals and rich oligarchy has been conveniently scapegoated on brown people overloading our system despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Add a few self interested whackjobs like Farage and Rees Mogg and rudderless nonentity mainstream politicians and you have a recipe for this current disaster
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:05 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.