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Tags fires , France incidents , notre dame , Paris incidents

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Old 15th April 2019, 04:20 PM   #121
Sideroxylon
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
All of these old structures are Ships of Theseus, aren't they? When they rebuild this, can we really say this is still a medieval structure?
We can and we do in everyday human social contexts, the only place where such concepts of identity have meaning. As someone has pointed out, the fire becomes just another element of the building’s identity story.
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Old 15th April 2019, 04:26 PM   #122
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Has anyone been able to assess whether any of the stained glass survived?

In an ordinary room fire stained glass wouldn't have a chance. But in a huge space with the ceiling open, and suppression efforts going on, I couldn't make a prediction.
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Old 15th April 2019, 04:31 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They mean something, but some people make a fetish of them.
It's no fetish to value the history of achievements of mankind. It's keeping things in perspective.

Quote:
It takes a certain kind of conservative, to get mad at people who don't want to trade human lives to preserve a building.
No one got made at anyone. It takes a certain kind of conservative to see this where it doesn't exist.
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Old 15th April 2019, 04:36 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Would you accept if I told you that a human is just a meatsack?

It's not just a building. Would you say that about the Pyramids? It's part of our collective history.
Yes, I would accept that a human is just a meatsack. One that is capable of feeling fear and pain. Also one that has loved ones that would choose the meatsack's continued existence over the existence of a building.

It is just a building. One that different people value differently. Same with the pyramids.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A lot of the artwork within Notre Dame is considered a national treasure;the firemen are wlling to risk their lives to save as much of it as possible.
It may be that some of the firefighters are willing to risk their lives to save old stuff. Some likely are not. It's not the call of the individual firefighters. The decision of how to fight the fire is made by senior firefighter officials. They are the ones who decide if the firefighters should risk their lives.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
There are people for whom history and culture mean nothing.
There are also people who keep the value of history and culture in perspective when weighing it against the perceived value of a human life.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Thing is, a LOT of people die every day, some in horrible circumstances, and I'm sure Steve doesn't lose much sleep over it. This is different.
Why personalize? How about we just discuss the event?

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I believe that there are buildings and other key cultural objects that are worth the risk of human life. These are core parts of our culture that help give us inspiration, join us to society and to other people, and help define important parts of our emotional and intellectual lives. In many ways they help make us human. But the risks should be borne only by those knowledgeable and willing to take them.
I have no argument with this, especially the hilited part. Of course that is completely impractical. That is why those in charge of fighting the fire should be very wary of putting front line firefighters in danger.
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Old 15th April 2019, 04:41 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yes, I would accept that a human is just a meatsack. One that is capable of feeling fear and pain. Also one that has loved ones that would choose the meatsack's continued existence over the existence of a building.
And? A frog can feel fear and pain as well. Would you choose it over the Notre-Dame? That someone has feelings is irrelevant. We all have feelings, and more often than not those feelings are both fleeting and unimportant. The sum total of our culture, history and endeavours, however...

Quote:
It is just a building.
No, I've just explained to you why it isn't.

Quote:
Why personalize? How about we just discuss the event?
Who's personalising? I'm making a point that you are valuing hypothetical lives over an historic building, but that you probably don't worry about real lives being lost continuously. Is that incorrect?
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Old 15th April 2019, 05:02 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's no fetish to value the history of achievements of mankind. It's keeping things in perspective.
I'd say that when you start talking about the need for other people to sacrifice their lives to preserve the history you value, you've made a fetish of the value of history.

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No one got made at anyone.
Body of work. I stand by my analysis.

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It takes a certain kind of conservative to see this where it doesn't exist.
Conservatism is a necessary part of wanting to preserve stuff. This is just abject flailing around
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Old 15th April 2019, 05:24 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And? A frog can feel fear and pain as well. Would you choose it over the Notre-Dame? That someone has feelings is irrelevant. We all have feelings, and more often than not those feelings are both fleeting and unimportant. The sum total of our culture, history and endeavours, however...



No, I've just explained to you why it isn't.



Who's personalising? I'm making a point that you are valuing hypothetical lives over an historic building, but that you probably don't worry about real lives being lost continuously. Is that incorrect?
So next time get yousrlf in there.
I will watch.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:05 PM   #128
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In response to Trumpy's ignorant Tweet:

The Paris Fire authorities tweeted out IN ENGLISH that they were employing everything possible to bring the fire under control EXCEPT water-bombing, which could lead to a collapse of the entire structure.

An American replied in French: Veuillez nous excuser pour notre crétin orange

Translation: Please excuse us for our orange moron
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:12 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd say that when you start talking about the need for other people to sacrifice their lives to preserve the history you value, you've made a fetish of the value of history.
Valuing something highly is not fetishism. You're just labeling something you disagree with in order to make it seem bad. That's just propaganda.

Quote:
Body of work. I stand by my analysis.
Insisting on something doesn't make it more true.

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Conservatism is a necessary part of wanting to preserve stuff. This is just abject flailing around
Yes, that was exactly my point. None of us here are particularily conservative. You know this.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So next time get yousrlf in there.
I will watch.
You're not the first to suggest that for some reason my comment that I value important human achievements more than individuals somehow means that I should offer myself as a sacrifice to that ideal. Leaving aside the fact that this isn't even physically possible, what's the point of that suggestion?
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:23 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And? A frog can feel fear and pain as well. Would you choose it over the Notre-Dame? That someone has feelings is irrelevant. We all have feelings, and more often than not those feelings are both fleeting and unimportant. The sum total of our culture, history and endeavours, however...



No, I've just explained to you why it isn't.



Who's personalising? I'm making a point that you are valuing hypothetical lives over an historic building, but that you probably don't worry about real lives being lost continuously. Is that incorrect?
The sum total of humanity's culture history and endeavors really is nothing special because we as a species are nothing special. It is only worth the hypothetical value a human puts on it. No humans, no value. Your opinion of value is irrelevant.

The lives I am valuing in this discussion are not hypothetical. They are the lives of Paris firefighters actively working on the Notre Dame fire. What I think about other lives being lost in other circumstances has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

However, if you want to relate this to personal circumstances how willing would you be to send your wife into the burning cathedral to rescue a painting that you valued? Or for that matter, to put your own life at risk?
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:27 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Valuing something highly is not fetishism. You're just labeling something you disagree with in order to make it seem bad. That's just propaganda.



Insisting on something doesn't make it more true.



Yes, that was exactly my point. None of us here are particularily conservative. You know this.



You're not the first to suggest that for some reason my comment that I value important human achievements more than individuals somehow means that I should offer myself as a sacrifice to that ideal. Leaving aside the fact that this isn't even physically possible, what's the point of that suggestion?
Of course you would not dare offer yourself. You are too willing to offer strangers for that purpose.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:38 PM   #132
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For those saying “can’t be re-built”, much of Normandy was destroyed during WWII and re-built. St Malo was rubble, but now certainly looks and feels like a centuries old port. The same can happen with Notre Dame.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:45 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The sum total of humanity's culture history and endeavors really is nothing special because we as a species are nothing special. It is only worth the hypothetical value a human puts on it. No humans, no value. Your opinion of value is irrelevant.
Seriously, you need to put your argument in order, because the above is contradictory. First of all I reject your moral relativism here, because it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Second, my opinion of value is NOT irrelevant, since I'm talking about my values.

Quote:
The lives I am valuing in this discussion are not hypothetical.
They are, since nobody died.

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Of course you would not dare offer yourself. You are too willing to offer strangers for that purpose.
What are you even talking about? I Offered NOBODY, strangers or otherwise. And you're still repeating the complete nonsense of "offering" myself. What does that even mean? Offer myself for what, and through what mechanism? You're not making sense.

It really seems that the responses to my "asshat" comment are borne of sheer outrage, not any sort of reasoned thought.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:46 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
For those saying “can’t be re-built”, much of Normandy was destroyed during WWII and re-built. St Malo was rubble, but now certainly looks and feels like a centuries old port. The same can happen with Notre Dame.
Yeah, nobody said that.

We could rebuild the pyramids, too. But they wouldn't be the 4500 year-old pyramids, would they?
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:57 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
For those saying “can’t be re-built”, much of Normandy was destroyed during WWII and re-built. St Malo was rubble, but now certainly looks and feels like a centuries old port. The same can happen with Notre Dame.
If you stop caring about a key factor it doesn't matter. But that's missing the point.

But that's like saying " sugar is a white powder why can't drug addicts just sniff that? Seems like less would get killed if they did. "

It isn't important because it seems old it is important because it is old.
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Old 15th April 2019, 07:14 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
For those saying “can’t be re-built”, much of Normandy was destroyed during WWII and re-built. St Malo was rubble, but now certainly looks and feels like a centuries old port. The same can happen with Notre Dame.
The first time I went to Germany I was surprised that some of those medieval churches and cathedrals had survived the war. I later learned they hadn't. Some of them were shells of buildings at the end of the war. Yeah, it can be rebuilt, and the fire will be part of the history.


Still, it was a very sad day for me. I went to mass in that cathedral once, back when I did that sort of thing. It's an impressive place, and it will be again.
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Old 15th April 2019, 07:15 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Seriously, you need to put your argument in order, because the above is contradictory. First of all I reject your moral relativism here, because it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Second, my opinion of value is NOT irrelevant, since I'm talking about my values.



They are, since nobody died.



What are you even talking about? I Offered NOBODY, strangers or otherwise. And you're still repeating the complete nonsense of "offering" myself. What does that even mean? Offer myself for what, and through what mechanism? You're not making sense.

It really seems that the responses to my "asshat" comment are borne of sheer outrage, not any sort of reasoned thought.
Reject away. No outrage here. Neither humanity nor their accomplishments are anything to get too worked up about. You seem more upset than anyone else posting here.

You do not like the word "offer" That is fine. It is easier to raise semantics than defend your position.

You would be content to see dead humans if they died while preserving some old thing that you like. I would be happy seeing the same old thing completely destroyed if it meant all firefighters (hypothetical or real, you choose) go home to their family at the end of their shift.
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Old 15th April 2019, 07:59 PM   #138
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Summary
  • A devastating fire that began on Monday afternoon has destroyed the roof of the 850-year-old UNESCO world heritage landmark, whose spectacular Gothic spire collapsed before the eyes of horrified onlookers.
  • The main structure of Notre Dame, as well as its two towers, has been saved, according to the Paris fire brigade chief.
  • The blaze has been brought under control, firefighters confirmed in the early hours of Tuesday morning. “The fire is completely under control. It is partially extinguished, there are residual fires to put out,” said a spokesman.
  • French president Emmanuel Macron said the worst has been avoided, but warned the fire would likely continue to burn for several days, cautioning: “the battle is not yet totally won”. He praised the courage and professionalism of firefighters.
  • Macron asked the country to commit to rebuilding Notre Dame together, announcing an international fundraising campaign to raise money for the repairs. A site taking online donations has been launched.
  • French billionaire François-Henri Pinault, the chairman and CEO of international luxury group Kering, pledged 100 million euros towards rebuilding Notre Dame, according to a statement.
  • One firefighter was injured in the efforts to save the building.
  • Expressions of support and commiseration have poured in from leaders around the world.

Source (my friends in the Australian Politics thread know how I like to keep up with the live blogs on the Guardian)
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Old 15th April 2019, 08:12 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Summary
  • A devastating fire that began on Monday afternoon has destroyed the roof of the 850-year-old UNESCO world heritage landmark, whose spectacular Gothic spire collapsed before the eyes of horrified onlookers.
  • The main structure of Notre Dame, as well as its two towers, has been saved, according to the Paris fire brigade chief.
  • The blaze has been brought under control, firefighters confirmed in the early hours of Tuesday morning. “The fire is completely under control. It is partially extinguished, there are residual fires to put out,” said a spokesman.
  • French president Emmanuel Macron said the worst has been avoided, but warned the fire would likely continue to burn for several days, cautioning: “the battle is not yet totally won”. He praised the courage and professionalism of firefighters.
  • Macron asked the country to commit to rebuilding Notre Dame together, announcing an international fundraising campaign to raise money for the repairs. A site taking online donations has been launched.
  • French billionaire François-Henri Pinault, the chairman and CEO of international luxury group Kering, pledged 100 million euros towards rebuilding Notre Dame, according to a statement.
  • One firefighter was injured in the efforts to save the building.
  • Expressions of support and commiseration have poured in from leaders around the world.

Source (my friends in the Australian Politics thread know how I like to keep up with the live blogs on the Guardian)
That agrees with what I have heard from other sources. Saving the main structure will help a lot with reconstruction. It could have been worse, and for a long time looked like it would be. I wonder how much the Vatican will contribute from their vaults.
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Old 15th April 2019, 09:07 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, nobody said that.

We could rebuild the pyramids, too. But they wouldn't be the 4500 year-old pyramids, would they?
That's kind of an interesting philosophical question. If you stacked a bunch of blocks in the Nevada desert, you could build a pyramid, but not the 4500-year-old pyramid. But in this case, it appears that the primary stone structure is basically intact. What burned were the wooden supports and roofing, and the historical art and artifacts. How much of the original structure needs to be there to still be called the 800-year-old cathedral?
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Old 15th April 2019, 09:48 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post

[snip]


I have no argument with this, especially the hilited part. Of course that is completely impractical. That is why those in charge of fighting the fire should be very wary of putting front line firefighters in danger.

Why is my statement completely impractical? There are many people who volunteer to take high risks to save or protect cultural artifacts, or even objects with much less societal meaning. You yourself allude to fire fighters. Firefighters battle fires in many cases where there are no human lives at risk except the fire fighters' themselves. And firefighters are very knowledgeable about the risks involved.

Law enforcement officers risk their lives to protect property, not just people. Some archeologists risk their lives on dangerous expeditions simply to discover new objects of cultural value. I myself would accept a significant level of risk to my own life to save certain art work and I am not a very brave person.

Sure those in charge of fighting a fire should be and are cautious about putting firefighters at risk; yet they do put themselves at risk at virtually every fire. Risk is inherent to fire fighting and a balance is struck between the level of risk and the damage that the fire might inflict.
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Old 15th April 2019, 10:01 PM   #142
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The Gizan Pyramids are a terrible example because they've already been largely dismantled over the millennia. You wouldn't recognize the finished Pyramids from the skeletons standing today.

I've no doubt that reconstructions will take place, replacing the earlier reconstructions. Would a Notre Dame with a steel superstructure still be the same? I think as long as the roof looks the same as it was, and you still see wooden buttresses inside, the composition is only going to matter in future cases of possible destruction.
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Old 15th April 2019, 10:59 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
The Gizan Pyramids are a terrible example because they've already been largely dismantled over the millennia. You wouldn't recognize the finished Pyramids from the skeletons standing today.

I've no doubt that reconstructions will take place, replacing the earlier reconstructions. Would a Notre Dame with a steel superstructure still be the same? I think as long as the roof looks the same as it was, and you still see wooden buttresses inside, the composition is only going to matter in future cases of possible destruction.
They are going to rebuild it so a criminal organization has back their front for their pederasty ring.
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:04 PM   #144
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It has artistic merit that outweighs it's origination....

Are we talking a Woody Allen film, a Catholic Church, or an R Kelly album?
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:08 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, nobody said that.

We could rebuild the pyramids, too. But they wouldn't be the 4500 year-old pyramids, would they?
If you made it out of the original blocks it would. If it got hot enough you could even reuse the old mortar.
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:13 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It has artistic merit that outweighs it's origination....

Are we talking a Woody Allen film, a Catholic Church, or an R Kelly album?

None of the above ...


... but Operation: Mindcrime...?
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:30 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Has anyone been able to assess whether any of the stained glass survived?

In an ordinary room fire stained glass wouldn't have a chance. But in a huge space with the ceiling open, and suppression efforts going on, I couldn't make a prediction.
I just heard on the radio that most stained glass windows have been saved but that some of them will certainy need to be partially restored, particularly the lead parts.

Last edited by Castro; 15th April 2019 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:41 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So it was a lightning strike.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. There was one very probable cause, in that the fire broke out in an area where, a few hours previously, maintenance involving high-temperature equipment had take place. The lighting strike was much less probable, but that couldn't actually be proved, either. Certainly nobody witnessed a strike on the area affected (or, IIRC, the Minister as a whole).

Ultimately there were liability issues that meant that even if the more probable cause had been pursued and accepted, what could have been recovered would have been a drop in the ocean compared to the full cost of the rebuild. The idea that it was "lightning" had also gained such common currency by that time, that to suddenly admit it was negligence would have been hugely embarrassing for the church authorities, and might have affected the flow of donations to the rebuilding fund.

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Old 15th April 2019, 11:46 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I second this. I’ve been there as a tourist several times and never experienced anything but friendliness. My theory is that, waiters, in particular, appreciate my attempts to use their language but my accent probably sounds like dragging your nails down a blackboard to them, so they switch to English.
Same as my experience. Even the worst attempt at French (je parler français comme une vache espagnole) gets a better response that starting with a slow and loud, "do you speak English?"
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Old 16th April 2019, 12:05 AM   #150
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A thought struck me; the roof was wooden covered with lead, is there a significant pollution risk to the environment? Whilst much lead would just melt some must get dispersed into the air as particulate by the fire?

I can find some work on redistribution of environmental lead from wild fires but nothing on the specific hazard of leaded roof fires.

Last edited by Planigale; 16th April 2019 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 16th April 2019, 12:30 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
For those saying “can’t be re-built”, much of Normandy was destroyed during WWII and re-built. St Malo was rubble, but now certainly looks and feels like a centuries old port. The same can happen with Notre Dame.
To say nothing of the Cloth Hall in Ieper/Ypres.
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Old 16th April 2019, 12:42 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
To say nothing of the Cloth Hall in Ieper/Ypres.
Thanks for that. Now on my “must visit” list.
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Old 16th April 2019, 12:46 AM   #153
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alas, the Cathedral of Chalesm is gone forever.
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Old 16th April 2019, 01:14 AM   #154
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Just to add a small parallel for some colour. And this is by no means unique - I'm sure there are many similar stories out there.

It's not really in any way comparable, but I grew up in a small town that had a magnificent 12th Century Abbey - broadly contemporaneous with Notre Dame - it was actually finished around the time that Notre Dame was begun.

It its day, it had the tallest spire in England, and was a landmark. It was a centre of learning with a magnificent library. Around 1500 the spire collapsed, destroying a significant portion of the building - less than half of the original building remains. But you know what? it's still a landmark. It's still in daily use, and is very much a centre of the community. It survived the spire collapse, it survived the dissolution of the monasteries, and it survived my youthful attempts at choir singing.

What happened to Notre Dame is a tragedy, but life goes on, and she will bear her scars with pride.

This too shall pass.
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Old 16th April 2019, 01:33 AM   #155
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One for the architecture nerds...

The medieval design innovation that helped save Notre Dame from perishing completely
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Old 16th April 2019, 01:33 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Thanks for that. Now on my “must visit” list.
The First World War museum housed inside it is certainly not to be missed.
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Old 16th April 2019, 02:16 AM   #157
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Was googling Notre Dame today just out of curiosity.

Of it's bells the biggest 13 1/4 tonne

You wouldn't want that hitting you on the head....Well not without one of those plastic helmets builders wear on construction sites.

Even then I reckon you might be in trouble
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Old 16th April 2019, 02:18 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post


You're not the first to suggest that for some reason my comment that I value important human achievements more than individuals somehow means that I should offer myself as a sacrifice to that ideal. Leaving aside the fact that this isn't even physically possible, what's the point of that suggestion?
Because it is easy to offer other people as sacrifices for your belief.
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Old 16th April 2019, 02:19 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Reject away. No outrage here. Neither humanity nor their accomplishments are anything to get too worked up about. You seem more upset than anyone else posting here.
Then your ability to read emotion online sucks. I'm not upset, I'm simply stating a value judgment. I knew it would gather responses, but I expected smarter ones.

Quote:
You do not like the word "offer" That is fine. It is easier to raise semantics than defend your position.
But you _are_ playing with words. I said that I would've prefered one outcome over the other. I'm not asking people to sacrifice their lives, nor would I select people for the trade, myself or others. So your and Swoop's comments about me "offering" myself have nothing to do with the conversation. It was just a way to call me a bad person. So who's 'upset'?

Quote:
You would be content to see dead humans if they died while preserving some old thing that you like.
Again, you play with words. It's not that I "like" it. I've never even seen it, though I was planning to. The point is the historical and cultural value of it, as I indicated. So why do you say things you know aren't true?

Quote:
I would be happy seeing the same old thing completely destroyed if it meant all firefighters (hypothetical or real, you choose) go home to their family at the end of their shift.
And yet, just like me, there are things you value over human lives; you just don't want to say it out loud. Say I had magical powers and told you I could save a busload of children in Uganda who were about to fall into a ravine and die, insuring that they live healthy lives, if only you gave up everything you have and live the rest of your existence as a beggar, I guarantee that you wouldn't take the trade. We're no better than one another in this respect, but you had to broadcast to everyone here that you were. I'm not impressed.

If you want to discuss what I actually said on its merits, I welcome the discussion. Otherwise I suggest we focus on the main topic, which is the partial loss of a priceless historical monument.
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Old 16th April 2019, 02:20 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
If you made it out of the original blocks it would. If it got hot enough you could even reuse the old mortar.
A good question. Is the HMS Victory the original, considering that all of its parts were replaced at one time or another? Am I the Belz... who was born in the 70s, since all my cells were replaced since?

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because it is easy to offer other people as sacrifices for your belief.
Nobody said anything of the sort. Why do you lie? You don't usually do that, so what gives? Read my post above.
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