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Tags bigfoot , Bob Gimlin , Patterson-Gimlin film , Roger Patterson

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Old 8th December 2018, 06:48 PM   #2121
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
That, Google Maps™, works just, fine, thank, you very, much.
Hey, that's a great point.

I prefer google earth for my own ends, although here in Alaska there isn't enough coverage to do what I can do on my own.

But in the Philippines, and in the lower '48 it is just stunning what it can do. The distance calculator, for example, puts the lie to claims made with regularity about how remote their little "Area X's" are.

I apparently left the site marked on my own google earth. The first thing that stands out to me is the logging rotation. Not one inch of ground untouched, but its like mowing the grass in sections. I can see at least five distinct ages of clear-cut patterns, probably more. But you are not a cable-length from a log yarder anywhere in the entire region.
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Old 13th December 2018, 02:40 PM   #2122
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Patterson involved himself in several track finds before 1967 (Walla Walla, Erion Ranch, Laird Meadows). They were all variants of his final Bluff Creek 1967 version. I have not looked closely at them but it would be an interesting exercise to see if they correlate with the shape feedback given to him by the camera store operator in Yakima (documented in The Making of Bigfoot.).
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Old 13th December 2018, 04:36 PM   #2123
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Originally Posted by DennyT View Post
Patterson involved himself in several track finds before 1967 (Walla Walla, Erion Ranch, Laird Meadows). They were all variants of his final Bluff Creek 1967 version. I have not looked closely at them but it would be an interesting exercise to see if they correlate with the shape feedback given to him by the camera store operator in Yakima (documented in The Making of Bigfoot.).
That's interesting. I thought the conclusion of the interaction with the owner resulted in a pair that indeed did so. Did the camera guy see two versions? I think so.

I loaned my book out, so I can't re-read that section. I got three grand in overdue book fees stacked up so far though, it's going to take over my retirement account in 4.7 years.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:00 AM   #2124
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
A little-mentioned part of the story: Patty's tracks were of a unique individual never seen in the area before or since the film subject's little stroll.
Patty has narrower, more tightly set toes, because she's a girl and is used to wearing pointy shoes.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 08:08 AM   #2125
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Could the Bigfoot in the Patterson Gimli film be a human woman suffering from Hypertr

People with that genetic disorder often stay out of sight especially if they are women. Hypertricosis.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 09:46 AM   #2126
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I'll bite.

A female with a genetic problem chooses to live out in the deep woods near a logging camp, where hunters traipse through the woods half the year armed to the teeth.

Yet she leaves no scat, no evidence of food gathering nor shelter at all.

All that before the weather is figured in.

If she were to die a human skeleton might be found out there eventually, that hasn't been reported either.

Unless she was an actress for a day.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 11:03 AM   #2127
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Here the sole appears to be square at the heel. It is generally regarded as an illusion.
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...r/062b8a5a.jpg


Here the sole appears to be ovoid. It is generally regarded as an illusion
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...r/f0cf8956.gif


Here the toes appear to be flexing upwards. It is generally regarded as not being an illusion. I think it needs to be further examined as being another illusion.
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w...psbfc6880a.jpg
Woman with hypertrichosis?
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Old 3rd April 2019, 11:16 AM   #2128
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Woman with hypertrichosis?
Her feet are 14.5" long and she has a conehead, so she has more reasons to hide in the woods than just being hairy.
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Old 5th April 2019, 05:47 AM   #2129
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
People with that genetic disorder often stay out of sight especially if they are women. Hypertricosis.
That would be more monumental than it being an actual Bigfoot, tbh. I'm still going for the classic bloke in suit explanation. Though, it is nice to see the PGF story being dug up from its grave, even for a moment.
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Old 5th April 2019, 09:02 AM   #2130
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This is confirmation that Pattys a hoax and Meldumbs either an idiot or a fraud.
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Old 5th April 2019, 09:48 AM   #2131
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Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
This is confirmation that Pattys a hoax and Meldumbs either an idiot or a fraud.
Not necessarily mutually exclusive.
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Old 5th April 2019, 03:29 PM   #2132
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Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
This is confirmation that Pattys a hoax and Meldumbs either an idiot or a fraud.
I posted something like that on Bigfoot Forums several years ago..

They closed the forum and went home..

No! Wait!... They didn't..
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:37 AM   #2133
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Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
This is confirmation that Pattys a hoax and Meldumbs either an idiot or a fraud.
I was actually just thinking about this the other day while talking to a person with no anthropological background. Because it was related to the conversation, I threw out that when the Laetoli footprints were first discovered, there was actually a debate for several years that resulted from the footprints not looking much like the feet of the archaeologists studying them; some were arguing that the hominin feet weren't anatomically modern at the point. That was, until someone did a study of the feet of individuals who have lived their entire lives without shoes - it turns out they looked pretty much the same, because shoes have that big of an impact on how feet develop.

As a physical anthropologist specializing in foot anatomy, I'm sure Meldrum must be familiar with that anecdote I hear in my first Intro to Anthropology course. Which, of course, makes it seem strange that (as far as I know), he's never once addressed the issue of why bigfoot tracks look stunningly like feet used to wearing shoes. In fact, now I'm wondering if more people were aware of that, how many would still even acknowledge tracks as being evidence? People go all in based on dermal ridges and mid-tarsal breaks, what if you were able to shatter that by telling them a foot that's spent its whole life walking on bare ground just doesn't look like that?
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:07 PM   #2134
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Like I said... I informed everyone at Bigfoot Forums of exactly that, several years ago..

I provided very clear photographic evidence..

That may have been the problem, since they only accept blurry images as evidence of anything..
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Old 11th April 2019, 03:11 PM   #2135
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
I was actually just thinking about this the other day while talking to a person with no anthropological background. Because it was related to the conversation, I threw out that when the Laetoli footprints were first discovered, there was actually a debate for several years that resulted from the footprints not looking much like the feet of the archaeologists studying them; some were arguing that the hominin feet weren't anatomically modern at the point. That was, until someone did a study of the feet of individuals who have lived their entire lives without shoes - it turns out they looked pretty much the same, because shoes have that big of an impact on how feet develop.

As a physical anthropologist specializing in foot anatomy, I'm sure Meldrum must be familiar with that anecdote I hear in my first Intro to Anthropology course. Which, of course, makes it seem strange that (as far as I know), he's never once addressed the issue of why bigfoot tracks look stunningly like feet used to wearing shoes. In fact, now I'm wondering if more people were aware of that, how many would still even acknowledge tracks as being evidence? People go all in based on dermal ridges and mid-tarsal breaks, what if you were able to shatter that by telling them a foot that's spent its whole life walking on bare ground just doesn't look like that?
Just as with Greg, I've done the samething at BFF (Bigfoot Fantasy w/Friends) it's entertaining to debate with fanatics but can be exhausting, the myriad of belief systems, disingenuous arguments and most likely lying attention seekers, rarely base their argument on logic or facts.

All it really takes is an Internet connection to easily understand why nothing over a couple of pounds has gone undiscovered on the continental U.S. or just spend enough time outdoors. I've experienced the majority of things attributed to Bigfoot and they are all easily explained.....no giant monkey man required.
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:47 AM   #2136
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Originally Posted by Cervelo View Post
Just as with Greg, I've done the samething at BFF (Bigfoot Fantasy w/Friends) it's entertaining to debate with fanatics but can be exhausting, the myriad of belief systems, disingenuous arguments and most likely lying attention seekers, rarely base their argument on logic or facts.

All it really takes is an Internet connection to easily understand why nothing over a couple of pounds has gone undiscovered on the continental U.S. or just spend enough time outdoors. I've experienced the majority of things attributed to Bigfoot and they are all easily explained.....no giant monkey man required.
Oh, I'm aware of what it's like over there. Several years ago, I used to be a fairly regular poster. Pretty much every interaction I had over there ended up with people insulting me for pointing out basic anthropological facts and disagreeing with nonsense. Like you said, it's exhausting. I eventually had to quit for the sake of my own sanity, although that place did help me learn a lot about fanaticism, echo chambers, and anti-intellectualism.

I think one of the biggest obstacles is just how insular those places are. For the most part, people that frequent places like the BFF are never exposed to rational approaches in a meaningful way. It all gets buried by the negativity. Probably my favorite example is the "cripplefoot" track still being held up as a gold standard for evidence, despite it obviously being made by Ivan Marx as a tie-in to that hilarious video of a bigfoot hopping around that he also made. Bigfooters don't know about that video or the history of the print; all they ever really hear is that Grover Krantz said it would be be impossible to fake and no one would have a reason to. Even the Wild Thing podcast recently talked about that track as serious evidence without even mentioning Marx, or the video the track was supposed to support.

I guess I was wondering about the unlikely proposition that a bigfoot believer would get exposed to a simple, daming piece of information in a way that doesn't immediately get shouted down. Maybe the backlash effect would still drive them, but maybe it would cause some wheels to start spinning.
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Old 15th April 2019, 06:31 AM   #2137
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ArchSas what was your call sign at BFF?
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Old 1st May 2019, 09:35 AM   #2138
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Is anyone else aware that the (as far I'm aware) very popular podcast Astonishing Legends is in the middle of a 5-part series on the PGF right now? I thought it might be worth bringing it to the attention of the folks here.

I listen to a lot of fringe-oriented content as background noise at work, and so far, this series (and to be fair, the show in general - I usually give up during episodes because the hosts are always uninformed and demonstrate no critical thinking at all, at this point I'm probably done trying to give them a chance) might be one of the worst, most frustrating things I've ever listened to, especially for a format that constantly tries to present itself as skeptical. Annoyingly so, even; about every twenty minutes the hosts make some kind of claim to skepticism, despite admitting they think the film is genuine and dismissing any legitimate criticism they bother to bring up with the worst kind of credulity and handwaving. So far, their arguments have included gems like "well yeah, the timeline of the development doesn't make sense and the developers were closed, but it could have been a porn producer with his own equipment, so that argument isn't valid," "one guy claimed to have started hoaxing bigfoot tracks, but he couldn't have made all of them, so some are real," "Bob H. said Patterson was going to pay him $1000, but that was a lot of money and Patterson was broke and obviously wouldn't have promised that, so that story is probably a lie," and many others, with lots of (honestly pretty weird) Bob Gimlin hero worship. It's like listening to an audiobook version of the BFF that you know has a wide audience and dedicated fanbase.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
ArchSas what was your call sign at BFF?
I don't exactly remember. I think it was something like "blurryphotos." In any case, I was around 19 and still a fresh undergrad while I was posting there, so most of my history probably wouldn't be anything to be proud of, even if I was generally correct (for a while, I even used debunking arguments there as kind of a study guide - I would go through my notes and textbooks to look up exactly how posters were wrong about primatology/anatomy/whatever else I was learning).

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Old 19th May 2019, 09:53 PM   #2139
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Lightbulb

Long time lurker, first time poster. Read through a lot of the prior pages and threads on this. Like many I once entertained the possibility of the PGF being real but that has eroded down to no confidence over time.

I have to say that the earlier days of these threads were more entertaining, with the believers here to debate things. They seemed to all whittle away over time. Even so I'm glad the discussion is ongoing.

One thing I wanted to know- is what was their end game for "tracking" Patty for the 1-3 miles after the film ran out? They claimed they chased after it but did anyone ever ask them what would they have done if they caught up to it?
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Old 20th May 2019, 12:32 PM   #2140
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Originally Posted by Vulture View Post

One thing I wanted to know- is what was their end game for "tracking" Patty for the 1-3 miles after the film ran out? They claimed they chased after it but did anyone ever ask them what would they have done if they caught up to it?
I've seen even the most illustrious PGF skeptics fall into this fallacy. When it comes to the PGF, you have to separate the "story" from the film. IOW, Patterson didn't get bucked off of his horse. Gimlin didn't "cover" Patterson with his rifle. They didn't track Patty for X miles.... It was a guy in a suit. Didn't suprise them, wasn't going to attack them, didn't run away into the woods. Anything that isn't on the film was just part of the script in order to convince you it was real.
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Old 20th May 2019, 01:31 PM   #2141
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Originally Posted by comncents View Post
I've seen even the most illustrious PGF skeptics fall into this fallacy.
I'm not sure how much is getting sucked-into-the-lore fallacy versus an unstated "if-what-you-claim-is-true, then..." rhetoric.

I used the latter a lot at the ol' BFF. I spent years there trying to better understand why folks might believe such obvious piffle; often giving them the benefit of the doubt and seeing if they could then join me in taking the next step, i.e., "so that means..." It was verboten there to suggest that someone was lying, and I'm sure that I spent far too long engaging with some folks while trying to stick to that standard.

Of course, that's where skeptics get it wrong so often, i.e., when we fail to – or intentionally act to – assume that we're engaging with people acting in good faith. We're not. People are just bloody lying, pretending, BLAARGing, etc. Ultimately bigfootery is pointless because the beleebers are either lying or pathologically stupid. The skeptic's carefully researched and thoughtfully worded comments are lost on them either way.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 05:21 AM   #2142
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I'm not sure how much is getting sucked-into-the-lore fallacy versus an unstated "if-what-you-claim-is-true, then..." rhetoric.
This. "If what you claim is true" what was the end game for chasing Patty? You're not shooting her and you're out of film. Or are you going to try to reload your film while giving chase and if so why is there no video of the chase? If you tracked her for at least a mile, where are the photos or video of the trackway a mile away? And how did she get away if you're on horses and shes on foot? Did she suddenly turn into an Olympic sprinter after the lumbering on video? And why did the horses stop being scared enough to comply?

And let's say you caught up to her. Then what? Changing the film reel while giving chase would have probably been too cumbersome. So catching up to take better video is probably not an option. So was the plan to detain this thing?

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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:17 AM   #2143
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Originally Posted by Vulture View Post
This. "If what you claim is true" what was the end game for chasing Patty? You're not shooting her and you're out of film. Or are you going to try to reload your film while giving chase and if so why is there no video of the chase? If you tracked her for at least a mile, where are the photos or video of the trackway a mile away? And how did she get away if you're on horses and shes on foot? Did she suddenly turn into an Olympic sprinter after the lumbering on video? And why did the horses stop being scared enough to comply?

And let's say you caught up to her. Then what? Changing the film reel while giving chase would have probably been too cumbersome. So catching up to take better video is probably not an option. So was the plan to detain this thing?
Following that line of logic has just gotten me thinking about something else I don't think I've ever seen bigfooters address: why didn't anyone immediately go back to the film site and try to take more film or capture her?

After all, wasn't his initial story that he was finally able to get video of one of these things because Patty was old, slow, and maybe somewhat blind? So he thinks he knows the hangout spot of this creature he'd dedicated his life to, and has just found real evidence of, and it would apparently be easy to catch or at least run into again, but doesn't even bother to make an effort. Hell, despite the film site being next to a logging road, no one else even sees this thing hanging around again. For anyone that thinks Roger must not have been hoaxing because why else would he track something, his lack of follow up post-film screening should seem much more suspicious.
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Old 23rd May 2019, 06:32 PM   #2144
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Following that line of logic has just gotten me thinking about something else I don't think I've ever seen bigfooters address: why didn't anyone immediately go back to the film site and try to take more film or capture her?
The bigfooters don't like to talk about that, but we certainly have here. I mean, this is at least our 5th thread on the topic.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:53 AM   #2145
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Originally Posted by Vulture View Post
...

One thing I wanted to know- is what was their end game for "tracking" Patty for the 1-3 miles after the film ran out? They claimed they chased after it but did anyone ever ask them what would they have done if they caught up to it?
As the Shrike has alluded to, of course they have been asked in more ways than one..

The bottom line is; there was no tracking, there was no Bigfoot, so what they would have done if they caught her is beside the point..
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Old 24th May 2019, 03:30 PM   #2146
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
As the Shrike has alluded to, of course they have been asked in more ways than one..

The bottom line is; there was no tracking, there was no Bigfoot, so what they would have done if they caught her is beside the point..
I think these threads are at their best when skeptics are trying to prove the hoax, and/or believers are trying to prove the film was of a legit bigfoot. My question was along the lines of evidencing the hoax by pointing out another gap in the logic of the story P&G offered.
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Old 24th May 2019, 04:27 PM   #2147
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Thousands of posts here have addressed that..

Did you start with The Patterson Gimlin Film - Part 1

It's been 14 years...
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:26 AM   #2148
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Thousands of posts here have addressed that..

Did you start with The Patterson Gimlin Film - Part 1

It's been 14 years...
Yes I have reviewed most of the posts as I stated in my first post. Many posts addressed different gaps in logic but I dont recall any regarding the one I raised.
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Old 25th May 2019, 10:09 AM   #2149
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We are mostly preaching to the choir here...

Perhaps you could raise your question/s at Bigfoot Forums, which is where some of us discussed these things years ago.

It might be interesting to see how they would respond these days.
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:05 PM   #2150
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I haven't lurked there in a long time
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:02 PM   #2151
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Originally Posted by Vulture View Post
I haven't lurked there in a long time
If anything, the discourse there has worsened, with that Hunster assclown pontificating on virtually every thread.
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:43 PM   #2152
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Following that line of logic has just gotten me thinking about something else I don't think I've ever seen bigfooters address: why didn't anyone immediately go back to the film site and try to take more film or capture her?

After all, wasn't his initial story that he was finally able to get video of one of these things because Patty was old, slow, and maybe somewhat blind? So he thinks he knows the hangout spot of this creature he'd dedicated his life to, and has just found real evidence of, and it would apparently be easy to catch or at least run into again, but doesn't even bother to make an effort. Hell, despite the film site being next to a logging road, no one else even sees this thing hanging around again. For anyone that thinks Roger must not have been hoaxing because why else would he track something, his lack of follow up post-film screening should seem much more suspicious.
You'd think they'd rush over there. Maybe get Patterson to show them the site.

They didn't even go to see the film site at all, really.

Patterson never took any of the big time footers back there. Nor did any go on their own.

Bob Titmus went about nine days later, and had trouble finding the spot, and apparently didn't bother to bring a camera.

The only person who checked out the film site in any way at all in a timely manner was Laverty, and he just happened to be in the area anyway for his job and normally had a camera with him to do his job.

If not for Laverty, the first site visit would not have been for nine days.

Footers tended to travel to see tracks and investigate reports, but basically no one bothered to go and investigate the PGF site for months.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:52 PM   #2153
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Dahinden and Green seem to be traveling a lot around the time they get word to go to DeAtley's place.

Then they go to UBC on the 26th to see the PGF, which they've already seen...
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 28th May 2019, 10:55 AM   #2154
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So apparently I'm not allowed to post links or pictures until I've got 15 posts or more here.

I was looking back at some of Dfoots old posts, I'm pretty fascinated with his discovery of the Wah Chung Star Trek caveman mask which he posits may have been used for Patty's face.

I didnt see a lot of images of this mask on these forums, the pictures that were posted werent the best.

However I think more photos and better photos have since surfaced. One in particular is pretty compelling. It looks like a behind the scenes photo and it has a person in the costume next to a woman. What's interesting is not just how similar the mask looks to the Patty face but also the arms and hands. The arms and the material on them looks like it could've been adapted for the Patty suit. Especially the way the fur on the arm ends and the way the hand begins, it looks really similar, ending with the same "donut" of fur near the wrist.

If someone wants to PM me perhaps i can send the link to the image that way. Or if someone wants to google and find it and post it that would be appreciated.

The Star Trek episode in question was "The Galileo 7".

The image I found was from googling "Star Trek Taurean". Taurean is the name of the race of cave man like people that were depicted in the Wah Chang masks in question.

I searched "Star Trek Taurean" went to images, clicked on the one that is similar to what was posted here before (a not so clear shot of what looks like the character standing next to a block of ice or snow, facing left", (hosted at a site called 70sdisco) and when you click that it's the first image under related images (at a pinterest site titled 491 best rare Star Trek...)

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Old 28th May 2019, 03:02 PM   #2155
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/birdof...n/photostream/
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Old 28th May 2019, 03:13 PM   #2156
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
link
Thanks Shrike but that's not the image I'm referring to. That one was posted before. I'm referring to a picture that shows the character in costume standing next to a woman and you can see more of a side profile and the right arm and hand.

Well at least I'm one post closer to being able to post it myself.
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Old 28th May 2019, 03:28 PM   #2157
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Is it this?

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/d1/cf/a4/d...ies-sci-fi.jpg
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Old 28th May 2019, 03:53 PM   #2158
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Yes that's the one! Thanks WP. Look at the arm and hand. I think it stands to reason that if Patterson got his hands on that mask he probably got some parts that came with it, and why not use those and build the Patty suit around them? To me the arm and hand looks a lot like the Pattysuit we see in the PGF. Right down to the weird bulge of fur near the wrist. It's a big baggy arm just like we see in the footage. The fur looks similar too. And the big fake hands would likely look the same as in the PGF if shot under those conditions.

Look at the curve of the pinky, and compare to the "perfectfoot" frame. And look how far the middle finger juts out, which to me would give you the appearance of such long hands (the right hand at least) as what you see in the PGF. The donut of fur is in the same place just above the wrist in both. Seriously, compare the perfectfoot frame with this picture. Look at the distance between the donut of fur near the wrist and the end of the pinky.

I think Patterson took that mask, added a fur cap and some facial and head fur to obscure the ears and such, pieced it together with some other suit parts, but pretty much used those arms as is.

Last edited by Vulture; 28th May 2019 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 28th May 2019, 06:27 PM   #2159
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Some other stuff you might not have seen:
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Taurean_anthropoid

This one even shows something wonky about the right eyehole, which is an oft-discussed issue in the threads on the PGF: http://www.trekcore.com/specials/alb...leo7_alien.jpg

Another view: https://www.flickr.com/photos/birdof...axy/9355628646
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Old 29th May 2019, 01:59 PM   #2160
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Thanks Shrike, I had seen those. I really think that suit is a good candidate for the origin of the head and arms/hands that were used on the Pattysuit and not just the mask as had been previously posited.

I also was curious if maybe Patterson also maybe used the feet from this costume, as I cant see him creating those himself. Surely he cobbled together the suit from existing pieces.

I did find one image of the feet of the Taurean costume, but alas, they appeared to be wearing boots. Which makes me think the Pattysuit feet and probably the leg material didnt come from the Taurean costume.

Interestingly theres a Taurean figurine for sale online, and the figurine is barefoot. But I cant find any evidence that the original suit had feet.

I wonder if there's other Star Trek costumes from that era that had feet like what we see on the Pattysuit.

I looked at the Mugato, but those were more apelike feet so it cant be those.
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