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Old 12th March 2019, 08:08 AM   #281
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
But you got the roller skates from aliens, right?
Borg technology, to be specific. Industrial casters purchased from the Big Orange Retail Giant.
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Old 12th March 2019, 08:15 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Borg technology, to be specific. Industrial casters purchased from the Big Orange Retail Giant.
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:41 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
Already professed belief in reincarnation, heaven, ect… there are simply too many woo hurdles to overcome for one thread.
I'm not as bothered by a professed belief in a communicable afterlife as I am by the ongoing inability to articulate rational lines of reasoning to support such a thing. Why someone believes something is, for me, where the debate lies.

Why, according to him, should we believe Tyler Henry's claims? The best we seem to get is
Quote:
I think it is evident in Henry's manner, behavior and effect on other people that he is not engaged in fraud. Whether he is effective, we can debate. That he is sincere, and well-intentioned of that there is no doubt. I believe it to be self-evident.
He considers it "self-evident" beyond doubt that Henry is sincere and well-intentioned. Yeah, every successful charlatan tries to look like that. It's the sine qua non of charlatanism. He notes Henry's charm and its effect on others. Has he never seen a salesman at work? While at first glance this looks like a list of articulable reasons to trust him, it simply boils down to Henry being charming and affable, and Frank wanting to believe him. "There is no doubt," and "I believe it to be self-evident" are cop-outs. If we go farther back into the debate, we see similar admonitions that the show itself just ought to be considered evidence of its own authenticity.

We know the old adage: you can't argue someone out of a position they didn't argue themselves into. I don't see any evidence that Frank's acceptance of the show as authentic necromancy is based on any sort of careful analysis of evidence. Time after time it boils down simply to, "It just seems to be real," accompanied by increasing frustration that his critics don't accept that as an argument, and increasingly bizarre and fantastical dismissals of reasonable alternatives and contravening facts.
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:51 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I'm not as bothered by a professed belief in a communicable afterlife as I am by the ongoing inability to articulate rational lines of reasoning to support such a thing. Why someone believes something is, for me, where the debate lies.

Why, according to him, should we believe Tyler Henry's claims? The best we seem to get isHe considers it "self-evident" beyond doubt that Henry is sincere and well-intentioned. Yeah, every successful charlatan tries to look like that. It's the sine qua non of charlatanism. He notes Henry's charm and its effect on others. Has he never seen a salesman at work? While at first glance this looks like a list of articulable reasons to trust him, it simply boils down to Henry being charming and affable, and Frank wanting to believe him. "There is no doubt," and "I believe it to be self-evident" are cop-outs. If we go farther back into the debate, we see similar admonitions that the show itself just ought to be considered evidence of its own authenticity.

We know the old adage: you can't argue someone out of a position they didn't argue themselves into. I don't see any evidence that Frank's acceptance of the show as authentic necromancy is based on any sort of careful analysis of evidence. Time after time it boils down simply to, "It just seems to be real," accompanied by increasing frustration that his critics don't accept that as an argument, and increasingly bizarre and fantastical dismissals of reasonable alternatives and contravening facts.
I am with you on all of this, especially the opening about not being bothered by belief itself. If that bothered me I would have to cut off 90%+ of all my family and friends. Nor does it bother me if someone does not want to discuss their belief or does so but says something like "I can't really defend it, but I believe it." I'm good with that.

What gets me is what is happening here, i.e., a complete lack of rationale while clinging desperately to the claim that it is nothing but rational. This is compounded by the fact that we did not approach Frank and demand he defend his belief; he brought it to us and presented it as proof of itself.

A subset of that is the constant double standards, accompanied by the hubris that Pixel42 mentioned (she said arrogance). In Frank's case it is his anecdote about his non-musical friends thinking another friend of little-to-no talent was a very fine musician while steadfastly refusing to consider that he is copying them in his belief in Henry.
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Old 12th March 2019, 12:48 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Frank McLaughlin View Post
That is your limited experience. I get that. I trolled flat earth for a few months. It was fascinating to watch a person with no clue, so sure of themselves.
I have 35 years of wandering around dark buildings, basements, and attics looking for these "spirits" you seem to think are everywhere. I have a small library of parapsychology books, and a big library of "True Haunting" books.

I can say conclusively, based on first hand research that ghosts, as they are advertised, and accepted in the "mainstream" are not real. If they are not real then NOBODY IS TALKING TO THEM.

The thing I find fascinating, Frank, is when a purveyor of one kind of Woo looks down on other types of Woo. Mediums are on the same floor as Flat Earthers.
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Old 12th March 2019, 02:50 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I can say conclusively, based on first hand research that ghosts, as they are advertised, and accepted in the "mainstream" are not real. If they are not real then NOBODY IS TALKING TO THEM.

The thing I find fascinating, Frank, is when a purveyor of one kind of Woo looks down on other types of Woo. Mediums are on the same floor as Flat Earthers.

Even if they're not real, that doesn't stop people from trying:

William Shakespeare
Henry IV, Part 1 Act 3 Scene 1

GLENDOWER
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.


HOTSPUR
Why, so can I, or so can any man,
But will they come when you do call for them?
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:09 PM   #287
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<breathless>After participating in this thread, I found this guy squinting at me form my laundry....



Eleventy!!!! OMG!!!! FSM!!!! Looks just like my dead father.

Nah. I just thought it was hilarious in the context of this thread. One can apply meaning to anything if one willingly chooses to do so. If anything, that looks like George Galloway is attempting to emerge from my laundry and he isn't even dead.

Oh and before the cynics arrive, that was not a set up, just a random occurrence.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:11 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Even if they're not real, that doesn't stop people from trying:

William Shakespeare
Henry IV, Part 1 Act 3 Scene 1

GLENDOWER
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.


HOTSPUR
Why, so can I, or so can any man,
But will they come when you do call for them?
William Shakespeare was the relevant xkcd before there was an xkcd.
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:29 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Frank McLaughlin View Post
There is no American crane that can lift 1000 tons or even close.

You are as misinformed about this as everything else.

Bigge 125D AFRD, capacity 7500 tonnes.
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:55 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I'm not as bothered by a professed belief in a communicable afterlife as I am by the ongoing inability to articulate rational lines of reasoning to support such a thing. Why someone believes something is, for me, where the debate lies.

Why, according to him, should we believe Tyler Henry's claims? The best we seem to get isHe considers it "self-evident" beyond doubt that Henry is sincere and well-intentioned. Yeah, every successful charlatan tries to look like that. It's the sine qua non of charlatanism. He notes Henry's charm and its effect on others. Has he never seen a salesman at work? While at first glance this looks like a list of articulable reasons to trust him, it simply boils down to Henry being charming and affable, and Frank wanting to believe him. "There is no doubt," and "I believe it to be self-evident" are cop-outs. If we go farther back into the debate, we see similar admonitions that the show itself just ought to be considered evidence of its own authenticity.

We know the old adage: you can't argue someone out of a position they didn't argue themselves into. I don't see any evidence that Frank's acceptance of the show as authentic necromancy is based on any sort of careful analysis of evidence. Time after time it boils down simply to, "It just seems to be real," accompanied by increasing frustration that his critics don't accept that as an argument, and increasingly bizarre and fantastical dismissals of reasonable alternatives and contravening facts.
In general, I also am not bothered by what people believe. It is only when people start believing in it to their own detriment or the detriment of others that I really fight that belief. I have known people who will only make decisions based on what their psychic tells them. Overall, Frank's belief in tv medium isn't harmful, just sad at the logic he uses to back it up. This thread really jumped the shark for me when he stated that he doubted celebrities could/would fake reactions/emotions even though that is what they make a very good living doing. All the arguments are coming from a fantasy land and you simply can't reason against that.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:21 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
I have known people who will only make decisions based on what their psychic tells them.
I worked with an ad agency once and the guy who negotiated music rights had good stories, dealing with rock stars and all. One song in particular was difficult to get as he had to skip right over the publishing company and agent, and deal directly with the lead singer of the group. During the talks, held by phone, this singer had his psychic on his cell phone to his ear while talking to the agent / agency / etc. on the speakerphone. It was apparently a bit surreal. At some point, they wondered whether the cell phone thing was an act and he was pretending to consult someone, which is only marginally weirder.
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:34 PM   #292
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It's rare to find a medium whose act is well done.
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:41 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
It's rare to find a medium whose act is well done.
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Old 16th March 2019, 06:46 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
It's rare to find a medium whose act is well done.
I would also have accepted, "There's a small number of true mediums at large."
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:33 PM   #295
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If a person previously unknown to me just out of the blue told me some details of myself that I am aware very few could know of I would be impressed.
I would question his source and eliminate easy common methods first.

If he took money first or does a cold reading questions and blurbs session I am gone. If said person needs a payment by credit card and three days to my appointment ya, it's a hot reading.

To date that gifted person has not appeared to me, serious doubts it is going to happen.
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Old 16th March 2019, 08:06 PM   #296
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Is there a difference between a psychic and a medium?
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Old 16th March 2019, 11:21 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
Is there a difference between a psychic and a medium?
AIUI a psychic is someone who obtains information by any supernatural means, whilst a medium obtains information specifically by communicating with the deceased. So a medium is a psychic, but a psychic is not necessarily a medium. Palm readers, Tarot card readers etc are psychics (or rather they would be if they were genuine) but they are not mediums.
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Old 17th March 2019, 12:01 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
AIUI a psychic is someone who obtains information by any supernatural means, whilst a medium obtains information specifically by communicating with the deceased. So a medium is a psychic, but a psychic is not necessarily a medium. Palm readers, Tarot card readers etc are psychics (or rather they would be if they were genuine) but they are not mediums.
Thank you.

I rather like the way you put the highlighted bit.
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Old 17th March 2019, 07:01 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
Is there a difference between a psychic and a medium?
For the overview, Pixel42's post is as good as it gets, but with this question you have hit on one of the core problems in discussing someone's legitimacy or fraudulence. The claimant should define what they are, including their abilities and limitations (which includes the conditions required for success as well as expected accuracy), but they rarely do. And when they do, they are rarely consistent between claimants, and they are rarely consistent with the same claimant whose definition of his abilities will change based on the circumstance.
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Old 17th March 2019, 03:57 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
For the overview, Pixel42's post is as good as it gets, but with this question you have hit on one of the core problems in discussing someone's legitimacy or fraudulence. The claimant should define what they are, including their abilities and limitations (which includes the conditions required for success as well as expected accuracy), but they rarely do. And when they do, they are rarely consistent between claimants, and they are rarely consistent with the same claimant whose definition of his abilities will change based on the circumstance.
It is my belief they are all frauds either intentional or self deluding and I don't really think self deluding goes all that far. Why define themselves today when tomorrow they can scam from another angle.
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Old 17th March 2019, 06:22 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I would also have accepted, "There's a small number of true mediums at large."
Equally valid. It's probably quantum.
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Old 18th March 2019, 06:36 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
It's rare to find a medium whose act is well done.
Not many are rare, either.
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Old 18th March 2019, 03:41 PM   #303
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The version I first heard, maybe a couple decades ago:

Why are they called mediums?
Because they are neither rare nor well done.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:15 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by MEequalsIxR View Post
Is there a difference between a psychic and a medium?
A medium is a category of psychic. All mediums are psychics, but not all psychics are mediums.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:35 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A medium is a category of psychic. All mediums are psychics, but not all psychics are mediums.
Who knew that a non-existent ability could be so complicated!
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Old 18th March 2019, 06:23 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Who knew that a non-existent ability could be so complicated!
I believe mediums/psychics have their own set of rules.
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Old 18th March 2019, 06:53 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I believe mediums/psychics have their own set of rules.
There is a kind of internal logic to it, actually. Based on faulty premises, of course, but it is kind of internally consistent.
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Old 18th March 2019, 07:46 PM   #308
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"John Dixon, Frontier Psychic." He roamed the Old West, his mission to shoot all the bad guys before they commit a crime, helped by Grubby Hayes, the Psychic's psidekick. This week's adventure: the Frontier Psychic vs Billy the Toddler, a fast-paced shootout in a nursery while Grubby is accused of playing Seven-Toed Pete with a stacked Tarot deck.

Now we need a sponsor.
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Old 21st March 2019, 09:37 AM   #309
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"unsinkable rubber ducks"

Even if one were to prove Tyler Henry is using hot and cold reading–exposing Henry's "clairvoyant medium" act as a scam– it's highly likely he and his show will continue with business as usual.

I would think it possible that the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) could make it a requirement to substantiate psychic claims with a "reasonable basis" standard.

No psychic, medium, clairvoyant medium, or psychic/medium, has ever been scientifically proven to have the powers they claim. Their claims have not been substantiated; there is no "competent and reliable scientific evidence" for claims such as taking to the dead.

So are Tyler's "clairvoyant medium" claims unfair, false, unproven, and deceptive? Does that constitute false advertising?

"These are unsinkable rubber ducks!"

Nothing has changed much over years to curb psychic, medium, or faith healing claims. In 2006, James Randi wrote an article that described exposing faith healer Peter Popoff. Randi wrote: "Consider the televangelist Peter Popoff, to whom I will refer again, up ahead. Despite a nationwide, definitive, devastating, exposé we did of his scam on a major US television show, an event that was picked up and featured by all the media, he was soon back in business again, and is still working his racket and raking in the money! These are unsinkable rubber ducks!"1

I think it is important to prove if Tyler Henry (and others like him) are using hot and cold reading strategies and tactics.

Mass media companies give people like Tyler Henry a platform on which to stand.


1. Randi, James. "ANOTHER QUESTION TO PONDER." 4 Aug 2006. archive.randi.org.
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Old 21st March 2019, 09:46 AM   #310
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I notice our True Believer has not visited the forum for ten days.
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:21 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I notice our True Believer has not visited the forum for ten days.
Henry's agent?
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Old 29th March 2019, 02:31 PM   #312
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Yesterday, channel surfing (hey, I'm retired), I came across Henry's "show" again. This time, I really noticed just how much he is doing bad, bad cold-reading. And later, hot-reading.

The first show had Henry go behind the stage of some drag queens. They were all still in make up, wigs, drag, and already believers the way they gushed to and about them. The drag queens were all probably 50ish and his first question was, "whose mother has passed?" Ah, one of them has make-up running down the face from the tears of emotion. Of course, mom was "passed on".

Mom, says Taylor, "didn't always approve of the lifestyle you chose for yourself." Wow, Taylor. Must be good, she's sobbing away.

Next segment. Celebrities in a mansion. Lots of flashy, gaudy jewelry. I have no idea who they are. I think they are involved with hip-hop or other music that I don't like. But oh, was Henry ever impressed.

Hot read. This couple not only have had many details of their lives made public, but they TOLD Henry details and what they wanted to hear.

OK. I admit that I enjoyed the segment with the drag queens. I laughed through the whole thing. Louder as I watched the ones makeup all run off by her tears.

Perhaps I'm easily amused. But hey, it's entertainment. And that is what Tyler Henry is, an entertainer. Pure and simple.
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:14 PM   #313
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I watch Extranormal and Tercer Millennia with Jaime Maussan for the same reasons. Ghosts, demons, mean crypto fauna and aliens of all types with the usual "you decide" following flimsy investigation.

A load of bollocks at best but so funny they try so hard to disguise the predictability of Ancient Aliens.


Sure it's all crap but I try to pick apart the head games they play so often.
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