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Old 9th May 2018, 01:49 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Boy are the leftists going to be surprised when they find out we are not going to be giving up our guns. The Constitution is very clear, and is on our side.
I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply have no idea of how the rest of the developed world views them.

Do you live in the Wild West ?
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Old 9th May 2018, 01:59 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
So, will the draft age be raised to 21 to support the silly notion that the primary age group that has fought most of our wars can't be trusted with guns? Oh, and banning firearms that can be effectively used in a militia is most certainly Unconstitutional.

I' have previously been informed that a US soldier does not have the same liberties with his weapon that a US civilian does.

I don't believe there's really any reasonable parallel at all between civilian and military firearm ownership in the US. It is useless to use one as a point of reverence for the other. Well, unless you're proposing that civilians meet the same standards expected of infantrymen with regard to weapon discipline and firearm safety.
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Old 9th May 2018, 02:04 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply have no idea of how the rest of the developed world views them.

The bolded is a very wide group to encompass. I think your brush is far too large here.


There are some Americans for whom 'keeping access to firearms' = Win and 'losing access to firearms' = Lose, and that's the sum total of their thinking. It was good enough in eighteen-whatever, it's good enough now.

I think by far the majority of Americans are much, much clearer thinkers than that.
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Old 9th May 2018, 02:22 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The bolded is a very wide group to encompass. I think your brush is far too large here.


There are some Americans for whom 'keeping access to firearms' = Win and 'losing access to firearms' = Lose, and that's the sum total of their thinking. It was good enough in eighteen-whatever, it's good enough now.

I think by far the majority of Americans are much, much clearer thinkers than that.
I do hope so, sadly we just seem to be hearing more and more of the nutters.
It just astounds me.

I apologise to any Americans here I may have offended, that wasn't my intent
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Old 9th May 2018, 02:27 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I do hope so, sadly we just seem to be hearing more and more of the nutters.
Nutters shout loudest. It is in the nature of nutters. It has been pointed out that this debate is simply the fringe nutters on one side shouting at the fringe nutters on the other side. All each side ever really sees is the nutters, all nuance is lost in favour of volume.

I suspect this issue may not be helped by the, extremely weird 'winning isn't everything, it's the only thing' meme that runs through some of US society. Once you start applying that philosophy to life, rather than sport, then there's no such thing as compromise and it's impossible to achieve anything.


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It just astounds me.

I apologise to any Americans here I may have offended, that wasn't my intent

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Old 9th May 2018, 03:23 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply have no idea of how the rest of the developed world views them.

Do you live in the Wild West ?
That is patently ridiculous, the wild west had far stricter gun laws than they would tolerate. No open carry? Crazy despotic times man.
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:11 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply have no idea of how the rest of the developed world views them.

Do you live in the Wild West ?
Indeed. The idea that people who are too young to be trusted with a can of beer should be allowed unfettered access to semi-automatics is peculiarly American, and the reaction abroad is a mixture of bemusement, contempt, bewilderment, and sad resignation. However did a society get this twisted up?
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:14 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply have no idea of how the rest of the developed world views them.

Do you live in the Wild West ?
From what I can tell, the rest of the developed world has at least a mildly inaccurate and sometimes wildly bigoted view of America. Combined with the attitude that broadcasting their disdain will somehow shame America into conforming to a particular notion of propriety.
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:28 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From what I can tell, the rest of the developed world has at least a mildly inaccurate and sometimes wildly bigoted view of America. Combined with the attitude that broadcasting their disdain will somehow shame America into conforming to a particular notion of propriety.
Yes, it's ludicrous to try and impose the fundamental values of one culture and society onto another.
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Old 9th May 2018, 07:49 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yes, it's ludicrous to try and impose the fundamental values of one culture and society onto another.
I disagree.
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:51 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
So, will the draft age be raised to 21 to support the silly notion that the primary age group that has fought most of our wars can't be trusted with guns?
I doubt it.

Quote:
Oh, and banning firearms that can be effectively used in a militia is most certainly Unconstitutional.
Can you point out where this is a part of the initiative?
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:54 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
So, will the draft age be raised to 21 to support the silly notion that the primary age group that has fought most of our wars can't be trusted with guns?
You do know that in the military guns are very tightly controlled and it isn't even remotely analogous to the kind of concealed and open carry of such weapons that everyone is in favor of?

How about we use more military rules about when you can and can not carry a weapon and then on top of that when you have access to ammo. That would really put an end to this concealed carry BS.
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Old 9th May 2018, 11:56 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I do hope so, sadly we just seem to be hearing more and more of the nutters.
It just astounds me.
You are surprised that anyone who doesn't like a certain proposal will speak out against it? Why should it surprise you that some people don't think the way you do and make sure you know it? Your argument reminds of the people (like some of the GOP) who were shocked that gays had an agenda.

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Old 9th May 2018, 11:58 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Indeed. The idea that people who are too young to be trusted with a can of beer should be allowed unfettered access to semi-automatics is peculiarly American, and the reaction abroad is a mixture of bemusement, contempt, bewilderment, and sad resignation. However did a society get this twisted up?
I think your definition of unfettered leaves something to be desired. There are restrictions associated with gun possession no matter who you are in the USA.
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Old 9th May 2018, 12:34 PM   #55
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But less restriction on buying a semi-automatic than on buying a can of beer.......if you are under 21. How about a little perspective.
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Old 9th May 2018, 12:36 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
You are surprised that anyone who doesn't like a certain proposal will speak out against it?.......
No, that's not the issue. The issue that there is a mindset which says that ANY proposal, any proposal at all, on the subject of access to guns, is wrong, per se. That level of stupidity is what the rest of us simply can't fathom.
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Old 9th May 2018, 12:42 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, that's not the issue. The issue that there is a mindset which says that ANY proposal, any proposal at all, on the subject of access to guns, is wrong, per se. That level of stupidity is what the rest of us simply can't fathom.
Given everything else that happens in the world, it is the stupid gun politics you can't fathom?

Any proposal?

In the last several years WA reduced restrictions on access to certain kinds of guns. I heard few complaints from any side about the issue. When the Obama administration eased restrictions on access to machine guns and silencers in the USA, there was very little opposition as well.
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Old 9th May 2018, 12:45 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
But less restriction on buying a semi-automatic than on buying a can of beer.......if you are under 21. How about a little perspective.
Perspective is something you should provide. Compare teen alcohol related deaths to teen semi-auto rifle related deaths.
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Old 9th May 2018, 12:59 PM   #59
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You see, that's why you lot have the reputation you have. To equate the two is ridiculous. Nowhere else in the industrialised world thinks 18, 19, 20 year olds can't be trusted to buy a beer, but can be trusted with a semi-automatic. You, America, are the outlier. It isn't up to the rest of us to explain anything.
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Old 9th May 2018, 01:02 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Given everything else that happens in the world...........
Irrelevant.


Quote:
it is the stupid American gun politics you can't fathom?......
FTFY.

Correct. It is like a mass hysteria. An emotion-driven mass madness. I can't fathom why otherwise perfectly sensible people become swivel-eyed loons over the subject of their rights to own weaponry.
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Old 10th May 2018, 12:13 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You see, that's why you lot have the reputation you have. To equate the two is ridiculous.
Then why are YOU comparing the two?

Quote:
Nowhere else in the industrialised world thinks 18, 19, 20 year olds can't be trusted to buy a beer, but can be trusted with a semi-automatic.
I should believe this claim why? From what I've sen online, most of the world allows adults under 21 to drink alcohol. Some of those countries also allow adults to own semi-auto firearms.

Any evidence to support your claim?

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Correct. It is like a mass hysteria. An emotion-driven mass madness. I can't fathom why otherwise perfectly sensible people become swivel-eyed loons over the subject of their rights to own weaponry.
So Obama was one of those loons?

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Old 10th May 2018, 04:40 AM   #62
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Who are these leftists?
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Boy are the leftists going to be surprised when they find out we are not going to be giving up our guns. The Constitution is very clear, and is on our side.
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Old 10th May 2018, 05:10 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You see, that's why you lot have the reputation you have. To equate the two is ridiculous. Nowhere else in the industrialised world thinks 18, 19, 20 year olds can't be trusted to buy a beer, but can be trusted with a semi-automatic. You, America, are the outlier. It isn't up to the rest of us to explain anything.
Well said.
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Old 10th May 2018, 09:02 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Then why are YOU comparing the two?


I should believe this claim why? From what I've sen online, most of the world allows adults under 21 to drink alcohol. Some of those countries also allow adults to own semi-auto firearms.

Any evidence to support your claim?


So Obama was one of those loons?
You're going to carry on with this? Well OK, it's not me making myself look ridiculous.
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Old 10th May 2018, 09:15 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
I have come to the conclusion that Americans simply have no idea of how the rest of the developed world views them.

Do you live in the Wild West ?
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This applies to the whole country forever, not just flyover country. Power resides with the people, not the government.
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Old 10th May 2018, 09:30 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Who are these leftists?
Mostly the two strips along the coasts, along with Dem voters scattered around the country who think socialism (a necessary step to get to communism, according to Marx) is the way to go. You know, where Socialist Bernie Sanders was the 2nd most popular Democrat candidate in the last election and Hillary said she didn't win because she is a Capitalist and most of the Dem voters are Socialists.

The problem isn't with me and my fellow NRA patriots, the problem is with Democrats who don't like America and the Constitution as they are and want to change it to a Venezuela-style government like their hero Hugo Chavez did there. They want a country with no borders, which isn't even a country.
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Old 10th May 2018, 09:57 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This applies to the whole country forever, not just flyover country. Power resides with the people, not the government.
Except the American government already infringes on the right to "keep and bear arms," unless of course in the interests of legislative purity you want to let convicted felons keep their weapons. In any event - consider these changes to be additional regulations on your militia.

In any event, any of the amendments only apply until the people, acting through their elected representatives change it.

Otherwise, you'd still be trying to figure out which bootlegger was less likely to produce rotgut, how to get your Dr. to prescribe alcohol, or if you could get 10 gallons of wine/per if you claimed to be Jewish and your spouse claimed to be Catholic and you really needed the wine for "spiritual reasons."
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Old 10th May 2018, 10:02 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Yep we need to disband the Army. Our founders never ment for us to have this crazy standing army and the only solution is to fire them all.
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Old 10th May 2018, 10:04 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Except the American government already infringes on the right to "keep and bear arms," unless of course in the interests of legislative purity you want to let convicted felons keep their weapons.
Look the constitution is clear, felons are entitled to own nuclear weapons anything else is liberal propaganda.
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Old 10th May 2018, 10:18 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Except the American government already infringes on the right to "keep and bear arms," unless of course in the interests of legislative purity you want to let convicted felons keep their weapons. In any event - consider these changes to be additional regulations on your militia.

In any event, any of the amendments only apply until the people, acting through their elected representatives change it.

Otherwise, you'd still be trying to figure out which bootlegger was less likely to produce rotgut, how to get your Dr. to prescribe alcohol, or if you could get 10 gallons of wine/per if you claimed to be Jewish and your spouse claimed to be Catholic and you really needed the wine for "spiritual reasons."
Don't know why you think I'm a convicted felon, but I assure you I could not have passed the background checks to get a carry permit if that were the case.
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Old 11th May 2018, 12:40 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
.........This applies to the whole country forever, not just flyover country. Power resides with the people, not the government.
Yeah, you get to vote. What on earth has guns got to do with this?
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:19 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This applies to the whole country forever, not just flyover country. Power resides with the people, not the government.
Makes my original comment seem even more apt.
It's ludicrous.
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Old 11th May 2018, 01:42 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep we need to disband the Army. Our founders never ment for us to have this crazy standing army and the only solution is to fire them all.

This is the bit that gets me when people start banging on about the purity of the constitution. Large bits of it are ignored, standing armies exist (which obviate the need for a militia, where does that leave the second?) and my personal favourite, the evisceration of the fourth amendment that allows local authorities to just steal people's stuff with impunity.

I see little agitation on the part of those who have such reverence for the constitution regarding the buggeration of the fourth and literally no-one is talking about disbanding the standing army because it's unconstitutional.
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Old 5th June 2018, 10:26 PM   #74
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https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_B...itiative_(2018)

I think the ballot summary inadequate. It doesn't say anything about defining all semi-auto rifle as assault weapons. The NRA filed a legal challenge arguing that the ballot title is misleading and inadequate.
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Old 17th August 2018, 02:45 PM   #75
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https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...-state-ballot/
Quote:
Superior Court Judge James Dixon ruled that the formatting of the signature petitions used in the Alliance For Gun Responsibility’s campaign “did not comport” to Washington law.

“Frankly, this court does not struggle with this issue,” said Dixon. The law, he said, requires that petitions “must have a readable, full, true, correct copy of the proposed measure.”
I've read stories about switching signature pages on initiatives. I guess some people thought they were supporting something else. Not sure if any of it is true though.

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Previous Washington state court decisions have allowed initiatives with petitions considered flawed to move forward, he said. “We’re confident that the Supreme Court will reverse” the ruling, Wong said.
Not anymore I suppose.

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Old 17th August 2018, 06:15 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I've read stories about switching signature pages on initiatives. I guess some people thought they were supporting something else. Not sure if any of it is true though.
Who cares if any of it is true? The idea is out there now, so it will soon be a well-known fact!

Quote:
Not anymore I suppose.
I always cheer when something is thrown out on a technicality.
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:22 PM   #77
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Indeed. The idea that people who are too young to be trusted with a can of beer should be allowed unfettered access to semi-automatics is peculiarly American, and the reaction abroad is a mixture of bemusement, contempt, bewilderment, and sad resignation. However did a society get this twisted up?
That reaction abroad is well founded. I don't understand the "you'll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands" mentality either. And I'm an American born and raised. For me, all that is necessary for any sane, logical person to see that our gun mentality society is whacko is to compare our murder rate to countries that have stricter gun control.

Frankly, much of my own country's thinking is beyond my comprehension.
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Old 17th August 2018, 07:36 PM   #78
Ranb
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Who cares if any of it is true? The idea is out there now, so it will soon be a well-known fact!
I don't see why you think that. What I've seen was barely better than a meme.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I always cheer when something is thrown out on a technicality.
According to the judge it seemed to be more than a technicality. But keep on cheering if you wish.
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Old 17th August 2018, 08:43 PM   #79
BrooklynBaby
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You do know that in the military guns are very tightly controlled and it isn't even remotely analogous to the kind of concealed and open carry of such weapons that everyone is in favor of?

How about we use more military rules about when you can and can not carry a weapon and then on top of that when you have access to ammo. That would really put an end to this concealed carry BS.
You didn't address my point that either 18 year olds can be trusted with guns or not. My machine gun training in the military consisted of standing on the back of a submarine out at sea and shooting at plastic milk jugs for a minute or two.
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Old 17th August 2018, 09:31 PM   #80
BrooklynBaby
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Judge disqualifies Washington gun control initiative:

https://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ol-initiative/
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