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Tags donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

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Old 7th July 2019, 07:20 PM   #1441
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Yes, but there are billions of people enslaved in the matrix that are nothing but fuel for computers...
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Old 7th July 2019, 10:32 PM   #1442
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I'm pretty sure this has been asked already, but I never caught the answer. Where are the modern, currently-used European concentration camps?
Mainly subcontracted to countries in north Africa. The point I am drilling at here is what makes trump uniquely monstrous compared to his peers and more immediate predecessors?
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Old 7th July 2019, 10:49 PM   #1443
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Mainly subcontracted to countries in north Africa. The point I am drilling at here is what makes trump uniquely monstrous compared to his peers and more immediate predecessors?
more people suffering and dying in custody.
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Old 7th July 2019, 11:05 PM   #1444
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Because we who are here and now can do something about it now. No one can cancel out the concentration camps of Germany, or of US citizens of Japanese descent in WW2. But we sure as hell can do something about these camps right now.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:10 AM   #1445
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
The point I am drilling at here is what makes trump uniquely monstrous compared to his peers and more immediate predecessors?
Who knows, but you agree he is monstrous?
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:29 AM   #1446
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Because we who are here and now can do something about it now. No one can cancel out the concentration camps of Germany, or of US citizens of Japanese descent in WW2. But we sure as hell can do something about these camps right now.
Since Congress refuses to make any serious move, best response is to vote the idiot out.

Frankly, I'm surprised it took him this long to begin setting up concentration camps, and like AOC, I doubt that conditions in them will change much - his main campaign promise was to use state violence against women and especially minorities, as I pointed out at the time. I have little doubt that both he and Steve Miller quite enjoy tormenting innocent Hispanic people. The truth is, this is at least partly on the people who voted for him in the first place.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:31 AM   #1447
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Who knows, but you agree he is monstrous?
I think trump is a buffoon and a narcissist, but for "monstrous" you really have to work at it, like Richard Nixon.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:53 AM   #1448
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
I think trump is a buffoon and a narcissist, but for "monstrous" you really have to work at it, like Richard Nixon.
you mean trying to implement a UBI?

Yep, that's monstrous.
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Old 8th July 2019, 01:09 AM   #1449
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you mean trying to implement a UBI?

Yep, that's monstrous.
Watergate, Operation Menu etc. Are among many reasons I consider Nixon the worst Post-WW2 President.
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Old 8th July 2019, 01:55 AM   #1450
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Because as we all know only America is becoming more draconian with immigration. Acting like it's spherical cows in a vacuum is ignoring the wider context.
So now you admit your whataboutism. Why did you complain about the characterisation, then?
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:21 AM   #1451
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So now you admit your whataboutism. Why did you complain about the characterisation, then?
As we all know, Europe and Australia, described as the "civilised world" by posters here complaining about how the detention of migrant families makes Trump comparable to Hitler, are vibrant beacons of total open borders and anyone who points out evidence to the contrary is engaging in "whataboutism".
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:35 AM   #1452
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Mainly subcontracted to countries in north Africa. The point I am drilling at here is what makes trump uniquely monstrous compared to his peers and more immediate predecessors?
Does “uniquely monstrous” matter? Is anyone saying this?

The question is whether or not the detention camps are justifiable. The reports suggest the conditions are squalid and involve sadism and human rights violations. This is totally unjustifiable whatever other situations you invoke from your armchair.
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:48 AM   #1453
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Does “uniquely monstrous” matter? Is anyone saying this?

The question is whether or not the detention camps are justifiable. The reports suggest the conditions are squalid and involve sadism and human rights violations. This is totally unjustifiable whatever other situations you invoke from your armchair.
With arguments like "Trumpenfuhrer" and the implication that mass detention of migrants is going to lead to immigrant children being worked to death as slave labour.

I pointed out that Trump's odiousness is not, and never has been, unique.
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Old 8th July 2019, 03:01 AM   #1454
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
With arguments like "Trumpenfuhrer" and the implication that mass detention of migrants is going to lead to immigrant children being worked to death as slave labour.

I pointed out that Trump's odiousness is not, and never has been, unique.
Who cares if it is unique or not?

The point is it is odious. You agree with that, no?
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Old 8th July 2019, 03:05 AM   #1455
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Who cares if it is unique or not?

The point is it is odious. You agree with that, no?
It doesn't need to be stated that it's odious, but it's more the hypocritical sneering of "This shows how evil Drumpf and AmeriKKKa are!" that drives me up the wall.
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Old 8th July 2019, 04:11 AM   #1456
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Drumpf is evil, of that, there is no doubt.
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Old 8th July 2019, 04:32 AM   #1457
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
As we all know, Europe and Australia, described as the "civilised world" by posters here complaining about how the detention of migrant families makes Trump comparable to Hitler, are vibrant beacons of total open borders and anyone who points out evidence to the contrary is engaging in "whataboutism".
You're having a very hard time focusing on the actual discussion. I'm not interested in whatever characterisation of other posters you feel justifies, however indirectly, locking children up. If you want to make an argument on topic, do so. Otherwise don't be surprised when others call you on your inadequacy.
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Old 8th July 2019, 04:33 AM   #1458
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
It doesn't need to be stated that it's odious, but it's more the hypocritical sneering of "This shows how evil Drumpf and AmeriKKKa are!" that drives me up the wall.
I can't help but notice you didn't actually answer the question.
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:57 AM   #1459
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
I think trump is a buffoon and a narcissist, but for "monstrous" you really have to work at it, like Richard Nixon.
Keeping children separated from their parents in inhumane conditions is monstrous.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:21 AM   #1460
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Keeping children separated from their parents in inhumane conditions is monstrous.
Apparently it's doesn't matter if Trump personally chokes the kids, as long as NWOSentryman can find someone else that's ever done something bad somwhere in the world. Then it's all good. It's weaponized Whataboutism.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:30 AM   #1461
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Apparently it's doesn't matter if Trump personally chokes the kids, as long as NWOSentryman can find someone else that's ever done something bad somwhere in the world. Then it's all good. It's weaponized Whataboutism.
As Kenan Malik points out, "Civilised" Europe has no right to complain about this, and it's arguably WORSE than even Trump.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:47 AM   #1462
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
As Kenan Malik points out, "Civilised" Europe has no right to complain about this, and it's arguably WORSE than even Trump.
If the criticisms are valid it makes no difference who makes those criticisms. You are merely using an adhom argument, which as I am sure you know is a logical fallacy.

Are the conditions bad or are they now?
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:10 AM   #1463
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
As Kenan Malik points out, "Civilised" Europe has no right to complain about this, and it's arguably WORSE than even Trump.
Europe isn't complaining as far as I know. I live in Europe and I am critical of Trump's policy on locking children in cages. I have every right to be critical.

I'm also critical of a lot of the things being done to immigrants into the EU and many other Europeans share my opinion, but that is irrelevant on a thread about the USA locking children up in cages in the USA politics section.

Why are you still trying to excuse Trump's actions?
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:16 AM   #1464
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Apparently it's doesn't matter if Trump personally chokes the kids, as long as NWOSentryman can find someone else that's ever done something bad somwhere in the world. Then it's all good. It's weaponized Whataboutism.
As Kenan Malik points out, "Civilised" Europe has no right to complain about this, and it's arguably WORSE than even Trump.
As others have noted, you are having a very, very, very hard time focusing on this topic for some reason.

Here, at the top of the page:

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
Does that help? Is "Civilised Europe" in the USA?"
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:26 AM   #1465
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
It doesn't need to be stated that it's odious,
Apparently, it does. Why? Because there are some people on this forum who want to change the subject.

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
but it's more the hypocritical sneering of "This shows how evil Drumpf and AmeriKKKa are!" that drives me up the wall.
It is not all about you, and what drives you up the wall, you know. Maybe the camps themselves are more important than your feelings. Ever thought of that?
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:57 AM   #1466
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Keeping children separated from their parents in inhumane conditions is monstrous.
One of the problems they're trying to solve is that a lot of these children weren't with their parents to begin with.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:15 AM   #1467
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One of the problems they're trying to solve is that a lot of these children weren't with their parents to begin with.
Still not an excuse for keeping those kids in inhumane conditions.

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Old 8th July 2019, 09:00 AM   #1468
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One of the problems they're trying to solve is that a lot of these children weren't with their parents to begin with.
Do you have anything to support this statement? It's been asked to be supported multiple times but no one ever seems to be able to do it. How many of these children "weren't with their parents to begin with"? Do we have actual statistics?

Also, as previously implied by Amazer, even if they weren't with their parents that still doesn't rationalize them being treated like **** and that's a total non sequitur.

"These kids might be being kidnapped."

"Oh, ok. Lock them in that cage for their own safety, that should clear it up."

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Old 8th July 2019, 09:05 AM   #1469
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Simple question:

do you believe that it is the job of the US government to fix the humanitarian crisis /abuse in these camps?
Or do you intend to wait out the problem until no more migrants come to the US?
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:25 AM   #1470
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Do you have anything to support this statement? It's been asked to be supported multiple times but no one ever seems to be able to do it. How many of these children "weren't with their parents to begin with"? Do we have actual statistics?
Customs and Border Patrol data on unaccompanied minors at the border.

According to the data, it looks like unaccompanied minors 17 and under represent about 10% of total Southwest land border apprehensions. And the big growth in apprehensions is from family units, followed by unaccompanied minors.

Unlike the single adults, which are still predominately from Mexico, the families and unaccompanied children are 80 - 90% from Central America.

TypeFY18TD MAYFY19TD MAY% Change
Unaccompanied Minors32,292 56,278 74%
People as part of Family59,106 332,981 463%
Single Adults160,783 204,248 27%
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:28 AM   #1471
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Customs and Border Patrol data on unaccompanied minors at the border.

According to the data, it looks like unaccompanied minors 17 and under represent about 10% of total Southwest land border apprehensions. And the big growth in apprehensions is from family units, followed by unaccompanied minors.

Unlike the single adults, which are still predominately from Mexico, the families and unaccompanied children are 80 - 90% from Central America.

TypeFY18TD MAYFY19TD MAY% Change
Unaccompanied Minors32,292 56,278 74%
People as part of Family59,106 332,981 463%
Single Adults160,783 204,248 27%
Thank you for that data.

Even that, as you mentioned, shows people that are in family units. That doesn't relate to "they are being kidnapped and sold in sex trafficking". Unless I'm terribly missing something.

Am I terribly missing something?
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:52 AM   #1472
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Am I terribly missing something?
I can't tell from what you wrote, whether you see that "unaccompanied minors" are exactly that - unaccompanied - and separate from the family unit numbers. The table I made shows three discrete populations - UACs, family unit persons, and single adults. The family unit numbers include total persons apprehended, including both the adults and children. They do not include any unaccompanied minors.

ETA -

Sending people who have been kidnapped for sex trafficking alone across the border seems like a bad way to run a sex trafficking ring, so presumably those kidnap victims are listed in the family numbers. No idea what documents they use to verify the families. Fun fact - my paternal grandmother came to the US under a fake name, traveling with another family to Ellis Island.

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Old 8th July 2019, 09:59 AM   #1473
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I can't tell from what you wrote, whether you see that "unaccompanied minors" are exactly that - unaccompanied - and separate from the family unit numbers. The table I made shows three discrete populations - UACs, family unit persons, and single adults. The family unit numbers include total persons apprehended, including both the adults and children. They do not include any unaccompanied minors.
Ok, I'll try to explain myself further. Doing the math on those shows that UAC make up 12% and 9%, respectively, of the total people coming.

I'll phrase this part differently as well, I see how many UACs there are, but does "UAC" mean "brought here by a sex trafficker"? Does that mean they hopped on the caravan with friends of the family? The claim here is that "many" of the kids are brought over by sex traffickers. While your data shows that there are some kids coming over unaccompanied, I don't see anything showing they are being trafficked or kidnapped. Which was more what I was looking for.

The overall point I was making in my last post is that the largest increase, as you said, is with the family units. So really, this griping of "think about the children, obviously the best move is to rip them away and put them in cages" argument isn't just nonsensical. It's unsupported by any real world data.
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:06 AM   #1474
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Letting your child sex slave cross the border alone and talk to customs and immigration agents without you being there seems like a really bad way to run a smuggling operation.

But yeah - there are actually many more kids coming as part of family units. Ripping those kids apart from their families to detain them separately is cruel and inhumane, and the fact that our government was intentionally doing this to deter migrants is pretty sick.

Last edited by carlitos; 8th July 2019 at 10:10 AM. Reason: changed "2 or 3 times" to "many more" as I haven't check #
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:06 AM   #1475
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, I'll try to explain myself further. Doing the math on those shows that UAC make up 12% and 9%, respectively, of the total people coming.

I'll phrase this part differently as well, I see how many UACs there are, but does "UAC" mean "brought here by a sex trafficker"? Does that mean they hopped on the caravan with friends of the family? The claim here is that "many" of the kids are brought over by sex traffickers. While your data shows that there are some kids coming over unaccompanied, I don't see anything showing they are being trafficked or kidnapped. Which was more what I was looking for.

The overall point I was making in my last post is that the largest increase, as you said, is with the family units. So really, this griping of "think about the children, obviously the best move is to rip them away and put them in cages" argument isn't just nonsensical. It's unsupported by any real world data.
As I understand it, a kid is also 'unaccompanied' if they show up with a non-parental relative, such as aunt/uncle, grand parents, older siblings, etc.
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:53 AM   #1476
plague311
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Letting your child sex slave cross the border alone and talk to customs and immigration agents without you being there seems like a really bad way to run a smuggling operation.
I guess I didn't think of that as what they were doing, but nothing else in that data that I could find (I'll totally admit to be wrong if that's the case) supports the claim that "many" are sex slaves at all.

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
But yeah - there are actually many more kids coming as part of family units. Ripping those kids apart from their families to detain them separately is cruel and inhumane, and the fact that our government was intentionally doing this to deter migrants is pretty sick.
I agree with this in its entirety.

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
As I understand it, a kid is also 'unaccompanied' if they show up with a non-parental relative, such as aunt/uncle, grand parents, older siblings, etc.
I assumed those would be included in the "family units" section. Though that could just mean parents + kid, etc.
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